Are Wales better than us?

[mccaughey85]

8 hours ago, Diamond Scot said:

I wouldnt be surprised if they got independence before us. Im sure the amount of welsh speakers about 20 years ago was at an all time low. Then they made it compulsory at schools etc and now you can see the increased pride in all things Welsh. The idea of doing similar in Scotland would be shot down right away. We are more happy to have our kids taught French as a 2nd language than our own countrys tongue. Its actually pathetic alot of the things in our country when you look at it.

On a footballing point though they obviously benefit from alot of their good kids getting snapped up young by EPL academies but thats something we are catching up on.

Imagine what a Phil Foden or similar would do to our team as an attacking threat.

Nah they aint going independent anytime before us. They can barely get over 30 percent consistently in the polls. They have done well to promote their language but thats about it. The welsh independence movement are pinning their hopes that scotland going independent will inspire the welsh ppl to rise up. Thats never a good foundation to build on. Would they even get higher polling if we werent pushing for independence? 

I never understand why ppl want our youngsters to go to epl youth academies, its proven not to be the best route for both our players or even welsh players. Guys like bale and ramsay came through at southampton and cardiff. Both of which were championship clubs at that time. Most of their best players came through at championship clubs where they got games.

Fodens not really proof that the big epl clubs consistently produce top players. Hes a one off. Every top epl club has 1 or 2 guys come through every so often that make it to the first team but mostly they buy in guys who were developed at lesser clubs where they got games which developed their careers much more than any top class coaching ever will. A club like Dinamo zagreb probably produce more top players than most big european clubs and they have a tiny budget. Cardiff and swansea consistently produce epl players and they are mostly championship clubs.

For me i would rather that all our most talented young players were playing spl or  english championship football at ages 18/19-22. Its a much tougher environment and way better for their development than epl youth football ever will.

 

[mr mojo risin]

From what I saw of them against Iran Bale & Ramsay have gone from being their best players (by some distance) to their least effective. That is bound to make a massive difference to a team like them, or anyone really.

Would we have matched Iran's tempo in that game, not so sure we would have?

[mccaughey85]

3 minutes ago, mr mojo risin said:

From what I saw of them against Iran Bale & Ramsay have gone from being their best players (by some distance) to their least effective. That is bound to make a massive difference to a team like them, or anyone really.

Would we have matched Iran's tempo in that game, not so sure we would have?

Never watched their matches but perhaps wales might fair better by ditching bale and ramsay and giving some other guys who are in their prime or upcoming youngsters a chance? Wales probably just play those two based on past glories rather than current abilities/fitness etc. 

Saying that i havent watched any of this world cup so far so my judgement on performances are based on what i have read online.

[scotlad]

37 minutes ago, mr mojo risin said:

From what I saw of them against Iran Bale & Ramsay have gone from being their best players (by some distance) to their least effective. That is bound to make a massive difference to a team like them, or anyone really.

Would we have matched Iran's tempo in that game, not so sure we would have?

I think we might in a one-off game but in the second game of a tournament, I'm not so sure.

Tournament football, where the team's away from home and expected to play at a high level over a number of games in a short space of time, isn't something we have much experience of.

30 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Never watched their matches but perhaps wales might fair better by ditching bale and ramsay and giving some other guys who are in their prime or upcoming youngsters a chance? Wales probably just play those two based on past glories rather than current abilities/fitness etc. 

Saying that i havent watched any of this world cup so far so my judgement on performances are based on what i have read online.

I wonder if Bale and Ramsey might call time on their international careers now.

[mccaughey85]

14 minutes ago, scotlad said:

I think we might in a one-off game but in the second game of a tournament, I'm not so sure.

Tournament football, where the team's away from home and expected to play at a high level over a number of games in a short space of time, isn't something we have much experience of.

I wonder if Bale and Ramsey might call time on their international careers now.

Maybe have them on the bench from now on. Tbf to bale he still scored 5 goals in 11 games for wales this year so maybe he can still contribute to them in games by coming off the bench in the last 20mins.

[Johnnyshaker]

Better? Not necessarily but they've definitely been more effective than us and prior to this tournament had a little bit of a swagger and self belief that carried them over the line.

To me they are just at the end of a cycle. They've had a good 6 years where at times they've played above themselves but they looked completely done against England; mentally, physically and completely devoid of any hope of turning it around. That first Iran goal was probably the final nail for that team/squad as it is and they look to be in need of a bit of a refresh.

[Orraloon]

15 hours ago, Malcolm said:

I don’t see much in it between either us or wales.  Two teams that would be lucky to be at a World Cup with little expectation about getting out the group.

We are a very average international side with a couple of really decent players.  How many of our players would get in the England team or squad. Only Robertson, and maybe tierney if fit.

player for player we are possibly better than wales, but wales beat Ukraine at home and we couldn’t.  
we are a pot3 level team which in world terms is not great.  Look how poor Denmark are in this World Cup and they brushed us aside a year ago.

It wasn't just that we couldn't beat them, we got absolutely humped by Ukraine. Bottled it on the big occasion. 

[Orraloon]

Wales have a decent chance of qualifying for EURO24. It will be between them and Turkey for that second place in that group. And, a few of Croatia's stalwarts over the past decade will play their last international game at this World Cup. Croatia will probably still win the group but second place is definitely up for grabs. 

[Malcolm]

7 hours ago, Orraloon said:

It wasn't just that we couldn't beat them, we got absolutely humped by Ukraine. Bottled it on the big occasion. 

 

w did, plus we looked tired in an end of season game.  I worry about the fixture we have in June next year.

[Caledonian Craig]

19 hours ago, Orraloon said:

Wales have a decent chance of qualifying for EURO24. It will be between them and Turkey for that second place in that group. And, a few of Croatia's stalwarts over the past decade will play their last international game at this World Cup. Croatia will probably still win the group but second place is definitely up for grabs. 

No I am not so sure. Lets look at the Bale/Ramsay influence now largely gone.

2022 World Cup Qualifying

Bale and Ramsay scored 50% of Wales goals (6 of 12) and I'd hazard a guess a good share of assists to the other goals too.

2020 Euro Qualifying

Bale and Ramsay scored 45% of Wales goals (4 of 9) and again I'd hazard a guess lots of assists for the other goals.

2016 Euro Qualifying

Bale and Ramsay scored 85% of Wales goals (9 of 11) and probably assisted goals too.

Other influential figures such as Joe Allen is likely to have played his last game and Kieffer Moore is now 30.

[Tartan blood]

1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

No I am not so sure. Lets look at the Bale/Ramsay influence now largely gone.

2022 World Cup Qualifying

Bale and Ramsay scored 50% of Wales goals (6 of 12) and I'd hazard a guess a good share of assists to the other goals too.

2020 Euro Qualifying

Bale and Ramsay scored 45% of Wales goals (4 of 9) and again I'd hazard a guess lots of assists for the other goals.

2016 Euro Qualifying

Bale and Ramsay scored 85% of Wales goals (9 of 11) and probably assisted goals too.

Other influential figures such as Joe Allen is likely to have played his last game and Kieffer Moore is now 30.

I think a lot of people underestimate how much star power alters the mentality of a whole group. It's not just their direct impact, it also raises the game of the players around them.

I think it was Sutton who said when he walked out on the pitch and saw Henrik Larsson by his side, he felt like they could beat anyone. 

If the likes of Doak, Hepburn, Lowry etc turn into superstars, it'll completely change the psychological dynamic of the squad.

Wales will take a long time to recover when Bale retires.

[mccaughey85]

2 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

No I am not so sure. Lets look at the Bale/Ramsay influence now largely gone.

2022 World Cup Qualifying

Bale and Ramsay scored 50% of Wales goals (6 of 12) and I'd hazard a guess a good share of assists to the other goals too.

2020 Euro Qualifying

Bale and Ramsay scored 45% of Wales goals (4 of 9) and again I'd hazard a guess lots of assists for the other goals.

2016 Euro Qualifying

Bale and Ramsay scored 85% of Wales goals (9 of 11) and probably assisted goals too.

Other influential figures such as Joe Allen is likely to have played his last game and Kieffer Moore is now 30.

Depends on how the replacements for bale and ramsay do. 

Wales will still have a decent squad of players who play epl or english championship. Under good management they should get to the euros most years, especially if they produce a few more epl standard players.

Saying that its definitely going to be slight downward trajectory for them as bale and ramsey were big players for them, especially bale.

I dont think its all doom and gloom for them. They just have to make the best out of limited bunch like most other small nations do.

[Caledonian Craig]

25 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Depends on how the replacements for bale and ramsay do. 

Wales will still have a decent squad of players who play epl or english championship. Under good management they should get to the euros most years, especially if they produce a few more epl standard players.

Saying that its definitely going to be slight downward trajectory for them as bale and ramsey were big players for them, especially bale.

I dont think its all doom and gloom for them. They just have to make the best out of limited bunch like most other small nations do.

Well a lot of faith/hope is being put on Brandon Johnson who is 21 has 18 caps and just 2 goals. That does not strike me as a worthy replacement for Gareth Bale.

After the few years of success they have had it will seem like doom and gloom. Where the hope may lie for them is maybe ten years down the line where the kids of today are inspired by today's generation and so higher numbers turn to football and higher standards of youngsters breakthrough.

[scotlad]

On 12/1/2022 at 11:32 AM, mccaughey85 said:

Maybe have them on the bench from now on. Tbf to bale he still scored 5 goals in 11 games for wales this year so maybe he can still contribute to them in games by coming off the bench in the last 20mins.

If they can be bothered. Ramsey is a bit of crock these days and Bale lives in LA now - it's quite an ask to expect him to fly over to Europe for a couple of qualification games. He does seem to love playing for his country though, so I wouldn't completely rule it out.

As for replacements, they still have the likes of Harry Wilson, Daniel James and Brennan Johnson, who are all very good young attacking players (I'd take them for our squad) but none I would put in the same bracket as Bale or Ramsey, albeit that's a high bar to meet.

On 12/2/2022 at 11:51 AM, Tartan blood said:

I think a lot of people underestimate how much star power alters the mentality of a whole group. It's not just their direct impact, it also raises the game of the players around them.

I think it was Sutton who said when he walked out on the pitch and saw Henrik Larsson by his side, he felt like they could beat anyone. 

If the likes of Doak, Hepburn, Lowry etc turn into superstars, it'll completely change the psychological dynamic of the squad.

Wales will take a long time to recover when Bale retires.

That must be the case for Norway's players too when they see Haaland lining up alongside them.

[Caledonian Craig]

1 hour ago, scotlad said:

If they can be bothered. Ramsey is a bit of crock these days and Bale lives in LA now - it's quite an ask to expect him to fly over to Europe for a couple of qualification games. He does seem to love playing for his country though, so I wouldn't completely rule it out.

As for replacements, they still have the likes of Harry Wilson, Daniel James and Brennan Johnson, who are all very good young attacking players (I'd take them for our squad) but none I would put in the same bracket as Bale or Ramsey, albeit that's a high bar to meet.

That must be the case for Norway's players too when they see Haaland lining up alongside them.

Those you mention now have around 100 caps between them with a total of 12 goals - Wales need more than that for them to fill the chasm left by Bale and Ramsey.

[ProudScot]

Finally after about 15-20 years, we probably are better than them now 

[ThistleWhistle]

I think we need to find some middle ground between their mindset and ours - their fans believed they were amazing before a ball was kicked then it was plucky Wales before the final whistle even blew on the England game.  We on the other hand seem to revel in our own perceived inadequacies, or big up weaker opponents way beyond their ability, and our self-effacing attitude definitely reflects in our national psyche regardless of sport.

I'd never want to be as arrogant as them who've gone from losing friendlies vs Leyton Orient to thinking they're a footballing powerhouse within 25 years but there has to be somewhere in-between we can find surely.      

[Caledonian Craig]

17 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

I think we need to find some middle ground between their mindset and ours - their fans believed they were amazing before a ball was kicked then it was plucky Wales before the final whistle even blew on the England game.  We on the other hand seem to revel in our own perceived inadequacies, or big up weaker opponents way beyond their ability, and our self-effacing attitude definitely reflects in our national psyche regardless of sport.

I'd never want to be as arrogant as them who've gone from losing friendlies vs Leyton Orient to thinking they're a footballing powerhouse within 25 years but there has to be somewhere in-between we can find surely.      

Arrogant breeds from success. The more you have the bigger your ego and head becomes. The same, I'd bet, is the same with any set of football fans. Even ours went to Argentina where we whole-heartedly bought into winning the World Cup.

I think back to 1982 and the World Cup. I lived down in England at that time and no way was their support anywhere near as arrogant as they are now. That was because it was their first World Cup for a dozen years. There was far less cockiness and more nerves and apprehension to keep them in check plus just a gladness to be there. Now after several qualifications and getting to the semis etc that attitude has changed. Success breeds arrogance. And the same goes for Wales.

 

[ThistleWhistle]

1 minute ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Arrogant breeds from success. The more you have the bigger your ego and head becomes. The same, I'd bet, is the same with any set of football fans. Even ours went to Argentina where we whole-heartedly bought into winning the World Cup.

I think back to 1982 and the World Cup. I lived down in England at that time and no way was their support anywhere near as arrogant as they are now. That was because it was their first World Cup for a dozen years. There was far less cockiness and more nerves and apprehension to keep them in check plus just a gladness to be there. Now after several qualifications and getting to the semis etc that attitude has changed. Success breeds arrogance. And the same goes for Wales.

 

Thin line for me and I think England fans in this tournament are more confident than arrogant (1998-2014 they were fucking horrendously arrogant though) whereas Wales came across arrogant rather than confident for me and could have been more humble realising they're on the downward trend every nation our size typically has.  A Welsh bloke I knock about with genuinely thought they'd piss getting out the group and get to the semis with a bit of luck then thought they would beat England but US/Iran would let them down!    

Agree on 78 as having our arses handed to us probably still has a lingering impact on how we portray ourselves as won't want to look that fucking stupid ever again.  Agree on mindset too - we believe diddy teams will give us problems and inevitably they do although this is hopefully getting less and less apparent.  

 

[er yir macaroon]

On 12/1/2022 at 1:58 PM, Orraloon said:

It wasn't just that we couldn't beat them, we got absolutely humped by Ukraine. Bottled it on the big occasion. 

Our manager doesn’t learn from his mistakes. He’d play the same team again. 

[scotlad]

3 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Arrogant breeds from success. The more you have the bigger your ego and head becomes. The same, I'd bet, is the same with any set of football fans. Even ours went to Argentina where we whole-heartedly bought into winning the World Cup.

I think back to 1982 and the World Cup. I lived down in England at that time and no way was their support anywhere near as arrogant as they are now. That was because it was their first World Cup for a dozen years. There was far less cockiness and more nerves and apprehension to keep them in check plus just a gladness to be there. Now after several qualifications and getting to the semis etc that attitude has changed. Success breeds arrogance. And the same goes for Wales.

 

I think the same goes for us too.  Wee Vogts got slaughtered by the press and is generally remembered as a bit of a disaster but he took over at a time when we still expected to qualify for tournaments. 

Compared to some subsequent managers his competitive record was actually okay and he managed to get us to a second-place finish and a playoff - something it would take the better part of 20 years to achieve again.

[ProudScot]

5 hours ago, er yir macaroon said:

Our manager doesn’t learn from his mistakes. He’d play the same team again. 

And the same formation 

[Bzzzz]

No. Wales are gash. 

[mccaughey85]

16 hours ago, ProudScot said:

Finally after about 15-20 years, we probably are better than them now 

Not sure i would say we are better than them now. Both teams are probably quite equal.

Welsh fans could argue that they got to the world cup beating the team that put us out. 

[Bzzzz]

11 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Not sure i would say we are better than them now. Both teams are probably quite equal.

Welsh fans could argue that they got to the world cup beating the team that put us out. 

I'd disagree entirely after watching them in the WC. There's nothing to fear from them.