Are Wales better than us?

[scotlad]

I still think Wales are slightly better than us - we'd have probably missed that penalty against the USA and gone on to lose the game!

[Caledonian Craig]

4 hours ago, scotlad said:

I still think Wales are slightly better than us - we'd have probably missed that penalty against the USA and gone on to lose the game!

I would have been in agreement with you pre-tournament but not now. I think their fans just got a glimpse of the future without Bale and Ramsey. Both of them failed to turn up here and Wales struggled big time and soon they will have both retired. Nobody else there to step up and make a difference. They really were dire. I cannot think of a World Cup we qualified for and were more dire than this.

[killiefaetheferry]

On 6/14/2022 at 10:17 AM, Judith said:

Thats a fact.

I only got to see him up close at the end of his career, but the Cobra was a class act.

Him and Dougie Arnott were a great partnership.

 

I saw a lot of the Dundee side of the mid-late 80's. Coyne and Keith Wright up front were great to watch.

[vanderark14]

2 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I would have been in agreement with you pre-tournament but not now. I think their fans just got a glimpse of the future without Bale and Ramsey. Both of them failed to turn up here and Wales struggled big time and soon they will have both retired. Nobody else there to step up and make a difference. They really were dire. I cannot think of a World Cup we qualified for and were more dire than this.

I agree and have said as much in the other thread. I thought wales got lucky in that playoff and its really showing in this tournament. 

[Squirrelhumper]

Wales back in Obscurity now for another 50 odd years. 

[Squirrelhumper]

9 hours ago, scotlad said:

I still think Wales are slightly better than us - we'd have probably missed that penalty against the USA and gone on to lose the game!

Are they fuck. 

As for pens, never missed many en route to the Euros. 

[Diamond Scot]

I think the golden era for Wales is over with Bale and Ramsey now past it however ppl forget how many other top EPL players they have produced over the years. 

Ive no doubt that they will continue to keep producing EPL standard players which in turn will hold them in good stead.

Theres also a real rise in proper love for their country. Young people all learning the language, place names getting changed to the non English versions including the name of the country itself. Countries with real pride tend to punch above their weight.

Unfortunetly that doesnt apply to us. We dont even celebrate our own national saints day properly and you are hard pushed to find anybody who wants to speak anything but english in schools.

[mccaughey85]

8 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

I think the golden era for Wales is over with Bale and Ramsey now past it however ppl forget how many other top EPL players they have produced over the years. 

Ive no doubt that they will continue to keep producing EPL standard players which in turn will hold them in good stead.

Theres also a real rise in proper love for their country. Young people all learning the language, place names getting changed to the non English versions including the name of the country itself. Countries with real pride tend to punch above their weight.

Unfortunetly that doesnt apply to us. We dont even celebrate our own national saints day properly and you are hard pushed to find anybody who wants to speak anything but english in schools.

They still had quite a few epl players playing last night. All it would take is for them to produce a few more and a good manager to make the most of that group. Bit like ourselves really. Its very unlikely they produce another bale but a few guys of ramsays standard should keep them qualifying for major tournaments.

The welsh have always been passionate about their countrys language and sporting teams but i doubt they ever break free from the uk and that to me proves that their pride in their country is superficial at best. They have always bowed down to their masters and no amount of welsh signs or success in sports can change that fact.

[DAVIDB46]

I think we have better players as whole , but they have more belief in themselves than us.

It has generally carried them further than it should have , than us in the last 6 years or so.

Still would not be over confident in us beating them as our record against them is pretty dreadful .

[Squirrelhumper]

2 minutes ago, DAVIDB46 said:

I think we have better players as whole , but they have more belief in themselves than us.

 

They certainly haven't shown that in Qatar.

[Scots_Wha_Hae]

6 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I would have been in agreement with you pre-tournament but not now. I think their fans just got a glimpse of the future without Bale and Ramsey. Both of them failed to turn up here and Wales struggled big time and soon they will have both retired. Nobody else there to step up and make a difference. They really were dire. I cannot think of a World Cup we qualified for and were more dire than this.

There are a number of posts saying basically this and I would agree also. I think they are on a downward trajectory for at least a little while. Wales have a much higher degree of integration with the English system than we do though, so all of their best young players are coming through at essentially English clubs (including Swansea and Cardiff). With the amount of money and therefore coaching excellence in that development system they are bound to produce plenty more championship to Premier league quality players, so while I am not sure they will continue at their current level due to the retirement of Bale and Ramsay, I doubt they will sink to the kind of depths we did post 2000.

[Bristolhibby]

44 minutes ago, DAVIDB46 said:

I think we have better players as whole , but they have more belief in themselves than us.

It has generally carried them further than it should have , than us in the last 6 years or so.

Still would not be over confident in us beating them as our record against them is pretty dreadful .

Especially in Cardiff. My record is 0-3 vs the Welsh. 
 

2004 4-0

2009 3-0

2012 2-1 (a late Bale double, 81st pen and 89th winner )

9-1 on aggregate. Terrible. 
 

J

 

[scotlad]

3 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Are they fuck. 

As for pens, never missed many en route to the Euros. 

What, the Euros where we had two home games and lost them both?  

We didn't get many pens en route to the Euros, not in normal time anyway.  We have a bit of a history of missing pens in major finals when it really counts though.

[Toepoke]

4 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Wales back in Obscurity now for another 50 odd years. 

With their main clubs having access to English mega bucks I think they will continue to develop players of a decent standard. Might be a while til another Bale comes along but I dont think they will be dropping that far down the pots.

 

[Tartan blood]

2 hours ago, Scots_Wha_Hae said:

There are a number of posts saying basically this and I would agree also. I think they are on a downward trajectory for at least a little while. Wales have a much higher degree of integration with the English system than we do though, so all of their best young players are coming through at essentially English clubs (including Swansea and Cardiff). With the amount of money and therefore coaching excellence in that development system they are bound to produce plenty more championship to Premier league quality players, so while I am not sure they will continue at their current level due to the retirement of Bale and Ramsay, I doubt they will sink to the kind of depths we did post 2000.

It's a very good point. Same goes for the Irish up until recently. A lot of their best players were nurtured at EPL academies. That was a relatively rare thing for us. However, that seems to be changing dramatically right now. There is wave after wave of youths heading to decent EPL academies. Combine that with the performance schools up here and we should see a bit more of an even keel with Wales and Ireland, and eventually surpass them both.

It kind of feels like the passing of the baton with Wales. It's our turn to have a golden generation. With a bit more experience and self-belief, I think we'll start participating in far more tournaments.

[mccaughey85]

Wales success isnt built having young players at fancy epl academies. I dont think many of their best players came through at epl academies. Bale came through at saints when they were in the championship and ramsay came through at cardiff when they were in the championship as well. Joe allen came through when swansea were in league1. Their success is built on getting young players gametime even if its at lower level.

[Scots_Wha_Hae]

4 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Wales success isnt built having young players at fancy epl academies. I dont think many of their best players came through at epl academies. Bale came through at saints when they were in the championship and ramsay came through at cardiff when they were in the championship as well. Joe allen came through when swansea were in league1. Their success is built on getting young players gametime even if its at lower level.

Nobody said EPL academies, both posts said English academies. You have listed their best players of the last 15 years all of whom came through 'English' academies (i.e. academies aligned to the English system to including Swansea and Cardiff) which reinforces the point.

Players coming through Welsh structures would come through at the likes of New Saints, Connah's Quay Nomads or Bala Town. I'm not aware of any significant players in recent history developed through that route.

[mccaughey85]

4 minutes ago, Scots_Wha_Hae said:

Nobody said EPL academies, both posts said English academies. You have listed their best players of the last 15 years all of whom came through 'English' academies (i.e. academies aligned to the English system to including Swansea and Cardiff) which reinforces the point.

Players coming through Welsh structures would come through at the likes of New Saints, Connah's Quay Nomads or Bala Town. I'm not aware of any significant players in recent history developed through that route.

Tartan blood was talking about epl academies.

Not sure what your point is regarding welsh leagues, i havent mentioned anything about them. I am not suggesting welsh players came through at welsh clubs. They came through at english clubs(swansea and cardiff included). Hopefully we can get our players to come through at english clubs but its not neccessarily epl clubs that are the best place for them which has been shown by the fact that wales best players and our best players dont tend to come through epl youth systems. 

[Scots_Wha_Hae]

3 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Tartan blood was talking about epl academies.

Not sure what your point is regarding welsh leagues, i havent mentioned anything about them. I am not suggesting welsh players came through at welsh clubs. They came through at english clubs(swansea and cardiff included). Hopefully we can get our players to come through at english clubs but its not neccessarily epl clubs that are the best place for them which has been shown by the fact that wales best players and our best players dont tend to come through epl youth systems. 

Apologies, missed that. I think our point is the same.

[thesaint]

You watched their performances in the World Cup and come to that conclusion.After seeing some of the comments on their fan forum don't know if many of their fans would agree with  that conclusion.Utter shite seems to be the prevailing comment from plenty of them.

[Malcolm]

I don’t see much in it between either us or wales.  Two teams that would be lucky to be at a World Cup with little expectation about getting out the group.

We are a very average international side with a couple of really decent players.  How many of our players would get in the England team or squad. Only Robertson, and maybe tierney if fit.

player for player we are possibly better than wales, but wales beat Ukraine at home and we couldn’t.  
we are a pot3 level team which in world terms is not great.  Look how poor Denmark are in this World Cup and they brushed us aside a year ago.

[stocky]

10 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

I don’t see much in it between either us or wales.  Two teams that would be lucky to be at a World Cup with little expectation about getting out the group.

We are a very average international side with a couple of really decent players.  How many of our players would get in the England team or squad. Only Robertson, and maybe tierney if fit.

player for player we are possibly better than wales, but wales beat Ukraine at home and we couldn’t.  
we are a pot3 level team which in world terms is not great.  Look how poor Denmark are in this World Cup and they brushed us aside a year ago.

I remember us phukkin Denmark over at Hampden, we gave them a right spanking.

 

[Tartan blood]

5 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Tartan blood was talking about epl academies.

Not sure what your point is regarding welsh leagues, i havent mentioned anything about them. I am not suggesting welsh players came through at welsh clubs. They came through at english clubs(swansea and cardiff included). Hopefully we can get our players to come through at english clubs but its not neccessarily epl clubs that are the best place for them which has been shown by the fact that wales best players and our best players dont tend to come through epl youth systems. 

I did say EPL, but I was talking about that calibre of academy, not specifically a top 20 premier league only team. The player didn't have to be in the team at coincidentally the same time as they were in the EPL. Swansea, Southampton and Cardiff all have significantly more resources than any team outside of the old firm in Scotland, regardless of what division they are in when their youths are being developed.

[Diamond Scot]

13 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

They still had quite a few epl players playing last night. All it would take is for them to produce a few more and a good manager to make the most of that group. Bit like ourselves really. Its very unlikely they produce another bale but a few guys of ramsays standard should keep them qualifying for major tournaments.

The welsh have always been passionate about their countrys language and sporting teams but i doubt they ever break free from the uk and that to me proves that their pride in their country is superficial at best. They have always bowed down to their masters and no amount of welsh signs or success in sports can change that fact.

I wouldnt be surprised if they got independence before us. Im sure the amount of welsh speakers about 20 years ago was at an all time low. Then they made it compulsory at schools etc and now you can see the increased pride in all things Welsh. The idea of doing similar in Scotland would be shot down right away. We are more happy to have our kids taught French as a 2nd language than our own countrys tongue. Its actually pathetic alot of the things in our country when you look at it.

On a footballing point though they obviously benefit from alot of their good kids getting snapped up young by EPL academies but thats something we are catching up on.

Imagine what a Phil Foden or similar would do to our team as an attacking threat.

[Malcolm]

11 hours ago, stocky said:

I remember us phukkin Denmark over at Hampden, we gave them a right spanking.

 

you mean after they had won the group by taking maximum points in every game, including where they were two up against us after 15 minutes and threatening to give us a pumping?

Denmark are a good side.  We are a decent side for our size but 40th in the world is about right and equates to us having the be really on form to make it to a tournament.