Are Wales better than us?

[Tartan Chris]

On 6/5/2022 at 6:51 PM, Caledonian Craig said:

Wales got their luck with the first goal and were able to shut up shop - that is the only difference. Stats wise Ukraine have had more shots on goal than they did against us and more possession too. Amazing how a result paints a different picture on a match.

I agree with that. Watched it and Ukraine really should've scored 2-3 and had a penalty. If they'd gone 1 down think Ukraine would've held out comfortably.

When it's your time though and they have confidence of making the last two euros so as a squad they know how to get over the line.

Need to get that mentality by making next euros and then 2026 should be realistic given europe gets I think 2-3 extra spots.

[Tartan Chris]

One thing I do wonder though....maybe rotate away from Hampden a bit if that's possible (probably not). Hampden still has its moments but starting to lose a few too many key games for my liking when you look at the two in the euros. Ukraine infront of 60k at Celtic park would've been interesting added dynamic for both teams.

Saw someone ask on another forum why Wales weren't playing at Principality stadium. Obviously not watch them much as think they've played one friendly there in last decade! Could've got double the crowd and more finance but their record is very very good at the Cardiff City stadium.

It's that extra 5% they get that clearly makes difference to get them to major tournaments. 

[Texas Pete]

1 minute ago, Tartan Chris said:

One thing I do wonder though....maybe rotate away from Hampden a bit if that's possible (probably not). Hampden still has its moments but starting to lose a few too many key games for my liking when you look at the two in the euros. Ukraine infront of 60k at Celtic park would've been interesting added dynamic for both teams.

Saw someone ask on another forum why Wales weren't playing at Principality stadium. Obviously not watch them much as think they've played one friendly there in last decade! Could've got double the crowd and more finance but their record is very very good at the Cardiff City stadium.

It's that extra 5% they get that clearly makes difference to get them to major tournaments. 

No chance of that now SFA owns Hampden.

Could possibly see the odd friendly still being played at Pittodrie or in Edinburgh but there’s pretty much zero chance of internationals being played at Celtic Park or Ibrox unless Hampden Is being refurbished. Or if Robbie Williams gets booked again. 😂

[mccaughey85]

15 minutes ago, Tartan Chris said:

I agree with that. Watched it and Ukraine really should've scored 2-3 and had a penalty. If they'd gone 1 down think Ukraine would've held out comfortably.

When it's your time though and they have confidence of making the last two euros so as a squad they know how to get over the line.

Need to get that mentality by making next euros and then 2026 should be realistic given europe gets I think 2-3 extra spots.

The extra spots for europe should give us a slightly better chance of qualifying. 

[adamntg]

22 hours ago, Texas Pete said:

You pick one to play at left back?

So you’re leaving out either Tierney or Robertson?  Fair enough, don’t think many would agree with you there. 

[Caledonian Craig]

3 minutes ago, adamntg said:

So you’re leaving out either Tierney or Robertson?  Fair enough, don’t think many would agree with you there. 

Well you'd have to. After all so many people on here are firing pelters at Clarke for playing players out of position. Playing a back four with RB and LB means it is either Robertson or Tierney there or you then go against the fans' arguments and play Tierney out of position to make sure both play.

[adamntg]

2 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Well you'd have to. After all so many people on here are firing pelters at Clarke for playing players out of position. Playing a back four with RB and LB means it is either Robertson or Tierney there or you then go against the fans' arguments and play Tierney out of position to make sure both play.

Yeah, Clarke is picking his best players and fitting them into a formation as best he can.  I agree that’s the way to do it. 

[Caledonian Craig]

1 minute ago, adamntg said:

Yeah, Clarke is picking his best players and fitting them into a formation as best he can.  I agree that’s the way to do it. 

To a certain degree I agree.

However, nights like tomorrow night (and last Wednesday) the five at the back should be ditched. It only works when you have the available personnel for it and last Wednesday we did not. It works very well with Tierney in there but when absent it is not feasible. Clarke needs to work on alternative formations for such circumstances in my opinion.

[daviebee]

43 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

To a certain degree I agree.

However, nights like tomorrow night (and last Wednesday) the five at the back should be ditched. It only works when you have the available personnel for it and last Wednesday we did not. It works very well with Tierney in there but when absent it is not feasible. Clarke needs to work on alternative formations for such circumstances in my opinion.

Thing is, he's only got so much time. What happens if, sometime in the future, we're preparing for an important qualifier and Tierney pulls out at the last minute, sort of like what happened against the Czechs?  There'd be no time to work on an alternative formation.  There'd need to be a ready-made replacement for Tierney which is pretty impossible IMO.  We're lucky to have one of him so it's unrealistic to expect 2!

Do we ditch the 5 at the back now?  At least that way only one of Robbo and KT would be out-of-position which is maybe better than both.  Put KT wide left of a 5-man midfield to link up with Robbo or use him in the holding role (which might nullify his attacking threat)?  Whatever happens, if AR and KT are both fit then they've both got to be on the park IMO.

[Texas Pete]

2 hours ago, adamntg said:

So you’re leaving out either Tierney or Robertson?  Fair enough, don’t think many would agree with you there. 

Not necessarily. 3 at the back seems to work well when Tierney is available and is a complete disaster (against good teams anyway) when he isn’t. 

Clarke seems to expect his team to adapt to a formation change half way through a match when it becomes clear 3-5-2 isn’t working so why not have a different formation from match to match depending on whether Tierney and/or Robertson are available or not?

Or could Tierney and Robertson play in the same team with 4 at the back? Has Clarke even tried it? I’d be tempted to play Tierney at LB and Robertson at left mid.

Personally I don’t really mind what Clarke does to fix the problem as it’s his job to pick the team but I’d hope that he has finally recognised that playing 3 at the back offers us no advantage over 4 at the back whatsoever when Tierney is absent (which is quite often) and does something to sort it.

 

[ThistleWhistle]

19 minutes ago, Texas Pete said:

Not necessarily. 3 at the back seems to work well when Tierney is available and is a complete disaster (against good teams anyway) when he isn’t. 

Clarke seems to expect his team to adapt to a formation change half way through a match when it becomes clear 3-5-2 isn’t working so why not have a different formation from match to match depending on whether Tierney and/or Robertson are available or not?

Or could Tierney and Robertson play in the same team with 4 at the back? Has Clarke even tried it? I’d be tempted to play Tierney at LB and Robertson at left mid.

Personally I don’t really mind what Clarke does to fix the problem as it’s his job to pick the team but I’d hope that he has finally recognised that playing 3 at the back offers us no advantage over 4 at the back whatsoever when Tierney is absent (which is quite often) and does something to sort it.

 

I've always liked the look of 4-5-1 with Tierney left back (covered by Hickey now too) and Robertson left mid - not sure who goes right midfield with Fraser regularly missing.  Would probably go McTominay as he would have freedom to bundle forward and would offer protection to Patterson. or have protection from Patterson when he lost it  

It would still give scope for a balanced central three too. 

Gap from front to back with Plan A missing Tierney are just massive and also were a regular issue in games vs Israel for me.    

[Caledonian Craig]

1 hour ago, daviebee said:

Thing is, he's only got so much time. What happens if, sometime in the future, we're preparing for an important qualifier and Tierney pulls out at the last minute, sort of like what happened against the Czechs?  There'd be no time to work on an alternative formation.  There'd need to be a ready-made replacement for Tierney which is pretty impossible IMO.  We're lucky to have one of him so it's unrealistic to expect 2!

Do we ditch the 5 at the back now?  At least that way only one of Robbo and KT would be out-of-position which is maybe better than both.  Put KT wide left of a 5-man midfield to link up with Robbo or use him in the holding role (which might nullify his attacking threat)?  Whatever happens, if AR and KT are both fit then they've both got to be on the park IMO.

I'd fully expect any team at any level to be able to change formations at the drop of a hat. Granted its easier if you do not stick rigidly to one formation.

[ceudmilefailte]

3 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Well you'd have to. After all so many people on here are firing pelters at Clarke for playing players out of position. Playing a back four with RB and LB means it is either Robertson or Tierney there or you then go against the fans' arguments and play Tierney out of position to make sure both play.

Quick question is Tierney a better left back than he is a left sided centre back in a back three?

[Caledonian Craig]

7 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

Quick question is Tierney a better left back than he is a left sided centre back in a back three?

I'd say a better left-back - in my opinion.

[Texas Pete]

2 hours ago, ThistleWhistle said:

I've always liked the look of 4-5-1 with Tierney left back (covered by Hickey now too) and Robertson left mid - not sure who goes right midfield with Fraser regularly missing.  Would probably go McTominay as he would have freedom to bundle forward and would offer protection to Patterson. or have protection from Patterson when he lost it  

It would still give scope for a balanced central three too. 

Gap from front to back with Plan A missing Tierney are just massive and also were a regular issue in games vs Israel for me.    

Got to be worth a try at some stage. If it doesn’t work then Clarke can always change it. 

It’s not as if Clarke isn’t brave enough to try new things as he started Robertson on the right against Denmark for some strange reason. Surely Robertson at left mid isn’t as outlandish as playing him on the right? 

[Texas Pete]

1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I'd say a better left-back - in my opinion.

You could even argue he’s a better left back than Andy Robertson. Although nowhere near as successful obviously. 

[Diamond Scot]

4 hours ago, Texas Pete said:

You could even argue he’s a better left back than Andy Robertson. Although nowhere near as successful obviously. 

You could argue but you would be wrong. Theres a reason Robertson is a champions league winner, 2 x runner up, EPL winner and multiple cup winner.

Im a huge fan of Tierney. He is probably the more eye catching player as he tends to dribble past defenders and when he tackles its more likely to be a solid tackle defensively whereas Robertson is more prone to good link up play and then interceptions defensively.

Robertsons level of consistency, work rate and assists are off the chart though. Alot of what he does defensively looks easy but its an art to be in the right place at right time.

Lets just be happy we have them both though with Hickey coming through fast. Hickey has the potential to be just as good if not even better than both.

[Texas Pete]

24 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

You could argue but you would be wrong. Theres a reason Robertson is a champions league winner, 2 x runner up, EPL winner and multiple cup winner.

Im a huge fan of Tierney. He is probably the more eye catching player as he tends to dribble past defenders and when he tackles its more likely to be a solid tackle defensively whereas Robertson is more prone to good link up play and then interceptions defensively.

Robertsons level of consistency, work rate and assists are off the chart though. Alot of what he does defensively looks easy but its an art to be in the right place at right time.

Lets just be happy we have them both though with Hickey coming through fast. Hickey has the potential to be just as good if not even better than both.

Correct and the reason is he plays for Liverpool. Tierney is also good enough to play for Liverpool but he plays for Arsenal instead. 

Time will tell who ends up being considered the better player. Tierney could end up at Barcelona or Real Madrid in the next couple of years and could end up winning more than Robertson for all we know. 

[Diamond Scot]

12 minutes ago, Texas Pete said:

Correct and the reason is he plays for Liverpool. Tierney is also good enough to play for Liverpool but he plays for Arsenal instead. 

Time will tell who ends up being considered the better player. Tierney could end up at Barcelona or Real Madrid in the next couple of years and could end up winning more than Robertson for all we know. 

Liverpool werent winning the league or reguarly getting to Champions League finals before Robertson joined them so you could argue that he is part of the reason they are succesful rather than the other way around.

Tierney is a top player of that there is no doubt but is far too injury prone. Robertson is probably the best left back in the world over the past 2 or 3 seasons. If not the best then defo in top 2 or 3.

[adamntg]

I’m really glad Steve Clarke is the manager and not some of our armchair pundits here.  No offence. 😄

[Caledonian Craig]

The frustrating thing is we are well stocked in some areas - full-backs and central midfielder but devoid of real top quality in the centre of defence, in attack and wide midfielders who can play down the wing. If only we could disperse some of that talent around the team - swap out a full-back for a centre-back and a central midfielder for a striker.

[er yir macaroon]

3 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

The frustrating thing is we are well stocked in some areas - full-backs and central midfielder but devoid of real top quality in the centre of defence, in attack and wide midfielders who can play down the wing. If only we could disperse some of that talent around the team - swap out a full-back for a centre-back and a central midfielder for a striker.

Well hopefully we’ll have Lowry (and perhaps Anderson) to add some creativity and ball skills to the side in the near future. Striker is still a big problem. I’m not yet convinced about Rory Wilson, but early days. 

[Bristolhibby]

Back to the OP question. I look at wales to be the opposite of my rugby team, Bath.

Bath have a host of International players a huge chunk of the England team but fail to click as a team. Culture is rotten and coaching particularly in defence is honking.

Wales in the other hand seem to be better than the sum of their parts. The Welsh management take average lower Premier / Championship players and turn them into a team that in Cardiff and on their day can beat anyone. That and Gareth Bale. Don’t underestimate what having a world class striker does to a team.

What Gary Speed started is paying dividends, managers have come and gone but the culture, the esprit de corps remains.

Good luck to them.

J

[Tartan blood]

9 minutes ago, Bristolhibby said:

Back to the OP question. I look at wales to be the opposite of my rugby team, Bath.

Bath have a host of International players a huge chunk of the England team but fail to click as a team. Culture is rotten and coaching particularly in defence is honking.

Wales in the other hand seem to be better than the sum of their parts. The Welsh management take average lower Premier / Championship players and turn them into a team that in Cardiff and on their day can beat anyone. That and Gareth Bale. Don’t underestimate what having a world class striker does to a team.

What Gary Speed started is paying dividends, managers have come and gone but the culture, the esprit de corps remains.

Good luck to them.

J

Furthermore, a lot of their best players don't even get regular first team football. Even Gareth Bale. On paper, we should be better than them, and I genuinely believe we'll surpass them in the very near future. 

As you say, they have built a culture over the past 5-10 years which has meant they have arguably over-achieved. However, we have only been building our culture over the past 2-3 years. By the time the 2024 tournament comes around, we'll have (hopefully) stepped up a level. 

[Caledonian Craig]

16 minutes ago, Tartan blood said:

Furthermore, a lot of their best players don't even get regular first team football. Even Gareth Bale. On paper, we should be better than them, and I genuinely believe we'll surpass them in the very near future. 

As you say, they have built a culture over the past 5-10 years which has meant they have arguably over-achieved. However, we have only been building our culture over the past 2-3 years. By the time the 2024 tournament comes around, we'll have (hopefully) stepped up a level. 

Absolutely spot on.

They have built a club team spirit around the national squad with a mix of tried and trusted internationals such as Hennessy, Davies, Allen, Ramsay, Roberts and Bale and integrating up and coming players at an early stage into the squad. It is a system that has been in the making for perhaps 8 years. We have been on a similar path for perhaps a couple of years and we have seen the improvements. We have went from leaking goals and being also rans in qualifying campaigns to being more competitive and secure at the back. My only worry about moving to the next stage is we have no Gareth Bale's.