Starting 11 v Ukraine

[Auchinyell Sox Change]

Just now, scotlad said:

I know you did, I was agreeing with you there.

At the same time, though, I don't think they're as good as we made them look.

I think we make Israel look good every time we ve played them in last few years - we seem to get away with it with scoring goals at fortunate times

[adamntg]

3 minutes ago, scotlad said:

I know you did, I was agreeing with you there.

At the same time, though, I don't think they're as good as we made them look.

Who can say?  We always used to complain about internationals in June and how everyone was knackered.  Obviously Ukraine weren’t cos they’ve not been playing.  We didn’t really get close to them at all tonight, they seemed to have all the time and space they wanted. 

[AlfieMoon]

Poor performance from the 1st til the last minute.  
 

Easy to say now but selection looked all wrong. Too slow to change tactics and formation. Hickey not great, next to McTom who is never a RCB. 
 

Gilmour not at it. McGinn really poor. 
 

So, so disappointing.  

[JECK]

An all round pathetic display I thought. Absolutely devastated. It’s like we don’t get angry and want to win till it’s all to late in the day. Feel like there should be some sort of inquest into the preparation because we were thoroughly schooled I thought. Why do we underperform as badly as we did. So infuriating 

[AlfieMoon]

Should their no.9 not have received a 2nd yellow for running to the fans after the 2nd goal - or is that not a rule? 
 

Assume it was never going to be given as a sympathy vote from the ref. 
 

Not that we deserved anything from the game anyway. 

[scotlad]

20 minutes ago, Auchinyell Sox Change said:

I think we make Israel look good every time we ve played them in last few years - we seem to get away with it with scoring goals at fortunate times

Oh, fuck aye, don't we just!

Our luck well and truly ran out tonight. When McGinn's header went wide I knew we'd blown it.

[scotlad]

12 minutes ago, AlfieMoon said:

Should their no.9 not have received a 2nd yellow for running to the fans after the 2nd goal - or is that not a rule? 
 

Assume it was never going to be given as a sympathy vote from the ref. 
 

Not that we deserved anything from the game anyway. 

Usually you'd expect to see a player booked if he runs into the crowd like that. I don't know if referees have any leeway around that or if it's a mandatory booking.

[Malcolm]

10 minutes ago, scotlad said:

Usually you'd expect to see a player booked if he runs into the crowd like that. I don't know if referees have any leeway around that or if it's a mandatory booking.

Frankly, we made the refs night easy for him.  He gave more decisions to Ukraine, but if it had been tight he would have blatantly given Ukraine everything.  I have no doubt that it would have been made clear to him that “it would be good to see Ukraine in the finals”.  The reality is we were so poor they didn’t need to.

[Templeton_Peck]

It was so so easy for Ukraine to play out in the first half. Whenever we did muster up some sort of press they played through it as if we were standing still. Then they were running at our defence who simply could handle the movement and quick play of the forwards.  

However when we had the ball we couldnt find a pass and hoofed it just like we did vs the czechs as we shat it again and hoped somehow a dykes flick would find the feet of adams or mcginn. This is tactics from a past era.

At 20 mins gone you could see the pattern and we desperatly needed to go to a back 4 and get help in to midfield who were not in the game at all. The back 3 simply doesnt work without Tierney. We know it and our opponents know it. 

 

[COLT NY]

21 minutes ago, scotlad said:

Usually you'd expect to see a player booked if he runs into the crowd like that. I don't know if referees have any leeway around that or if it's a mandatory booking.

It's a stupid rule anyway, so I'm glad he didn't get booked. 

Bottom line today was that our key players didn't perform (Robertson & McGinn at the front of that queue). Seemed to me that all the time the Ukranians had in camp together made a difference. Or maybe our boys looked at their shirts and thought they were playing Brazil?

Hard for me to criticise Clarke as I'd have maybe chosen the same starting 11. He should change things faster if its not working though, and McTominey should have switched to midfield as soon as it was clear the back 5 was working (so, after about 8 or 9 minutes!). He's also got us to a place where we're at least competitive again. I feel a lot better about our chances of qualifying for the next two tournaments than I did when we were losing 3-0 in Kazakhstan or 4-0 in Russia.

 

[Guest Scot1]

21 minutes ago, Templeton_Peck said:

The back 3 simply doesnt work without Tierney. We know it and our opponents know it.

I think the back 3 can work, if we have 3 or even 4 central midfielders in front of it. And just let the defenders concentrate on defending, don’t expect too much expansive football from the 3 centre halves. But I think we should be looking at a back 4 as our main formation going forward.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Scot1

[dezmondo]

We were miles off it tonight. 

Shouldn't really be a surprise when our captain would prefer to party 3 days before a WC play off. 

Then you've other players seen drinking on holiday between the season ending and tonight. 

Do you think the Ukrainian players were doing this in the past month?? No chance! 

At this level you can't get away with losing 1% and it showed. 

I'm sure some happy clappers will be along to tell us that the players deserve some down time etc etc. Nonsense! Arguably Scotland's biggest match in a long time and every player should have been putting absolutely everything in their favour to give a top performance. 

Feel massively let down. 

[Auchinyell Sox Change]

8 minutes ago, dezmondo said:

We were miles off it tonight. 

Shouldn't really be a surprise when our captain would prefer to party 3 days before a WC play off. 

Then you've other players seen drinking on holiday between the season ending and tonight. 

Do you think the Ukrainian players were doing this in the past month?? No chance! 

At this level you can't get away with losing 1% and it showed. 

I'm sure some happy clappers will be along to tell us that the players deserve some down time etc etc. Nonsense! Arguably Scotland's biggest match in a long time and every player should have been putting absolutely everything in their favour to give a top performance. 

Feel massively let down. 

Agreed

but do you believe if game was in march as originally planned we would of been any better ?

 

[supersub]

Dire performance given the magnitude of the game.  Cut wide open at the first goal. Craig Gordon making a couple of crucial saves to keep us in the game. 

McTominay is not a defender full stop.

Hanley, yes lacks pace at times but got stuck in when others stood back and were stand-offish.

Midfield pretty much non-existent during the first half. 

We only started playing at 65 minutes or thereabouts, second to most balls until this point and chasing shadows at times which made Ukraine look better than they are.

One recognised striker when we are 2-0 down....what's that about?

Disappointed Ross Stewart never got an opportunity when we were searching for an equaliser - we should have been bombarding them with balls in the box looking for knockdowns instead of trying side to side passes and back again in vain.

Very disappointed given we (the fans) we all up for it but players seemed to be holding back relying on someone else finding the spark or touch of brilliance. Players should have been right at it and on the front foot from first whistle and took the game to Ukraine but were happy to sit back and let them dictate the play early doors which gave them confidence.

Better team won on the day but how different it should have been if we were brave enough to go for the win instead of playing like being too scared to lose.

 

 

 

[romanticscot]

46 minutes ago, Auchinyell Sox Change said:

Agreed

but do you believe if game was in march as originally planned we would of been any better ?

 

I agree with your agree.

 

Would we have been better in March - imo I would have to say yes. If memory is correct wasnt Cal Mac injured along with Lyndon? 

Ive been chewing over the result the past few hours, our first WC play off since 1986 and here are a few things that I think contributed

1. We seriously missed Tierney.

2. Its a play off match at the end of a long season, and I think it benefited Ukraine.

3. In light of point 1 - we didn't need to play 3 at the back. I was for it in my team selection but after 15 minutes it was evident our midfield was not working and we could have either started with 4 or switched to it sooner.

4. Robbo - Ive not been a fan of him as captain. McLeish gave him the captaincy because he was our best player, it cant be changed now-  the time to change it would have been when Clarke got the job. To change it now makes him a scapegoat. Him only showing up for the training camp yesterday is the point Im getting at. Our best chance at making a World Cup for ages and first WC play off since 1986. He, I believe should have been with the squad on Monday morning, maybe not training with full intensity but certainly not with alcohol in his system.

5. Ill put this one as a question - why not start with Ralston? I know Hickey is two footed and plays right back for Bologna but I think he is stronger at left back. 

6. When the game is progressing - Hendry comes on, maybe to be a threat at set pieces but why not put on the Sunderland lad? 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by romanticscot

[exile]

5 hours ago, dezmondo said:

We were miles off it tonight. 

Shouldn't really be a surprise when our captain would prefer to party 3 days before a WC play off. 

Then you've other players seen drinking on holiday between the season ending and tonight. 

Do you think the Ukrainian players were doing this in the past month?? No chance! 

At this level you can't get away with losing 1% and it showed. 

I'm sure some happy clappers will be along to tell us that the players deserve some down time etc etc. Nonsense! Arguably Scotland's biggest match in a long time and every player should have been putting absolutely everything in their favour to give a top performance. 

Feel massively let down. 

I agree, biggest game in how many years, people shouldn't be partying while *our* season was not over.

[exile]

4 hours ago, romanticscot said:

4. Robbo - Ive not been a fan of him as captain. McLeish gave him the captaincy because he was our best player, it cant be changed now-  the time to change it would have been when Clarke got the job. To change it now makes him a scapegoat. Him only showing up for the training camp yesterday is the point Im getting at. Our best chance at making a World Cup for ages and first WC play off since 1986. He, I believe should have been with the squad on Monday morning, maybe not training with full intensity but certainly not with alcohol in his system.

 

 

I think it's possible to be a good captain if you can lead by example but from what you're saying, that was not the case. If someone doesn't 'show up' then someone needs to have had a word with them. Ideally before the damage is done, and not after it's too late.

[vanderark14]

Our players didn't put in anything close to enough effort, Ukraine are not a level above us, they wanted it much much more.

 

[ProudScot]

11 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

Our players didn't put in anything close to enough effort, Ukraine are not a level above us, they wanted it much much more.

 

Exactly this. Lack of effort, desire and hunger. Let the manager down, who also didn’t cover himself in glory tactically either. 

[Mox]

12 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

Our players didn't put in anything close to enough effort, Ukraine are not a level above us, they wanted it much much more.

 

They wanted it much more is literally just a meaningless platitude. They had a manager that knew what he was doing versus a guy playing 1970's football in 2022.

[Malcolm]

i was surprised how gutless our performance was on such a massive night.  Also, our midfield is too lightweight.  We need an enforcer.  Gilmour had a shocker.

[vanderark14]

15 minutes ago, Mox said:

They wanted it much more is literally just a meaningless platitude. They had a manager that knew what he was doing versus a guy playing 1970's football in 2022.

I agree the manager got it wrong but they definitely wanted it more, they were definitely putting in more effort than our lads did. 

[Toepoke]

Ukraine had done their homework (they've had plenty of time) and nullified our rigid 3-5-2.

Took far too long to change that, by which point the game was good as done.

They were clearly a technically superior team, Zinchenko would've been a joy to watch if I were a neutral.

Away from the football I was disappointed by the number of bams around me booing the Ukrainian anthem and giving their fans the fingers.

Also I've never seen so many grown men in tears at the end of a game. C'mon lads Scotland getting knocked out isn't that novel an experience. 

 

[Mox]

4 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

I agree the manager got it wrong but they definitely wanted it more, they were definitely putting in more effort than our lads did. 

I just can't agree. The players were once again, in a huge game at home put into a system that so obviously doesn't work. Clarke is a reactive manager rather than a proactive one and this defeat, like the euros embarrassment is on him.

He's got to go but that won't happen.

[vanderark14]

2 minutes ago, Mox said:

I just can't agree. The players were once again, in a huge game at home put into a system that so obviously doesn't work. Clarke is a reactive manager rather than a proactive one and this defeat, like the euros embarrassment is on him.

He's got to go but that won't happen.

Oh I have missed your dramatics 🤣