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Council elections - help!


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Okay I'm trying to get my head round voting in upcoming elections. System very different from down south 

Basically do I rank all candidates in order of preference, i. e. should I put Conservative and Unionist candidate last or not vote for them at all? I appreciate it may not swing the overall outcome but I'd be glad of any ideas from those who have more experience in these matters.

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15 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

alba for me, in two minds regarding the snp,, probably will,, the greens will be last on the paper

 

I thought you were from Peterhead?

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1 hour ago, Hertsscot said:

Okay I'm trying to get my head round voting in upcoming elections. System very different from down south 

Basically do I rank all candidates in order of preference, i. e. should I put Conservative and Unionist candidate last or not vote for them at all? I appreciate it may not swing the overall outcome but I'd be glad of any ideas from those who have more experience in these matters.

A few things about Single Transferable Vote to be aware of.

The basic operation of the system is that the total number of valid votes are counted and are then used to establish a quota.  This is a simple calculation - quota = number of votes/seats available +1.   So if there are 100 votes and three seats, the quota is 34.

There then follows a series of rounds until all the candidates are elected.  At each round one of two things can happen.  A candidate can meet the quota in which case their remaining votes are transferred on a proportionate basis to other candidates based on the next preferences of those votes,  So on the basis of the above example.  If one candidate gets 50 FP votes, then they are elected as they've met the quota and 16 votes are transferred on the basis of the preferences of all 50 votes. 

If no candidate meets the quota in a round then the candidate with the lowest votes is eliminated and all their votes are transferred on the same basis.

The key thing here, for any candidate, but particularly important for parties looking to win multiple seats is to make sure that your candidates remain in play until they can take advantage of any transfers.   Another example, in a three member ward, it could be very possible, depending on transfers, for a party who polls say 55% of the votes to get two candidates.  However, that isn't going to work if every supporter of that party ranks the same candidate as #1 and the other as #2.

So if you are intending to vote on party lines then you should go with the order that you're being advised to locally.  That's the party trying to manage the vote, in different parts of the ward, they will be recommending different orders.

In terms of ranking other candidates then there are two different approaches that tend to be used.   The first - and probably most usual - is to only vote for and rank those candidates you want to - or at least would be comfortable with - being elected and no more.   So in Scotland, you might see Indy supporters voting for the SNP, Greens, etc., and leaving it there and Unionists doing similar.

The other option, which is starting to get a bit of traction involves voting all the way down the list.   So say you were an Indy supporter, this might involve starting off with Indy parties, maybe some Independents, then Labour, Lib Dems and Tories last.    This is something which they use in Northern Ireland a lot and is colloquially known as Vote 'til you boak.

The difference between the two systems is that if you only vote for - say - the SNP and Greens, then once their candidates are either elected or eliminated then your vote is discarded and doesn't count any more.   If you vote all the way down the list then your vote remains active until the end and might actually have some impact.

The chances of this happening are relatively low, but they are not zero.

I think there was a case in NI in their last elections where the final seat in a constituency in - IIRC - Fermanagh, went to the SDLP rather the DUP as a result of exactly this tactic.

There seems to be a built in antipathy which is people looking at this tactic as "I'll never vote for them".   If you are ranking the Tory as 10/10, it's not so much that you are giving them your vote, rather that you are saying, they are literally the last person I would have represent me.

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1 hour ago, aaid said:

A few things about Single Transferable Vote to be aware of.

The basic operation of the system is that the total number of valid votes are counted and are then used to establish a quota.  This is a simple calculation - quota = number of votes/seats available +1.   So if there are 100 votes and three seats, the quota is 34.

There then follows a series of rounds until all the candidates are elected.  At each round one of two things can happen.  A candidate can meet the quota in which case their remaining votes are transferred on a proportionate basis to other candidates based on the next preferences of those votes,  So on the basis of the above example.  If one candidate gets 50 FP votes, then they are elected as they've met the quota and 16 votes are transferred on the basis of the preferences of all 50 votes. 

If no candidate meets the quota in a round then the candidate with the lowest votes is eliminated and all their votes are transferred on the same basis.

The key thing here, for any candidate, but particularly important for parties looking to win multiple seats is to make sure that your candidates remain in play until they can take advantage of any transfers.   Another example, in a three member ward, it could be very possible, depending on transfers, for a party who polls say 55% of the votes to get two candidates.  However, that isn't going to work if every supporter of that party ranks the same candidate as #1 and the other as #2.

So if you are intending to vote on party lines then you should go with the order that you're being advised to locally.  That's the party trying to manage the vote, in different parts of the ward, they will be recommending different orders.

In terms of ranking other candidates then there are two different approaches that tend to be used.   The first - and probably most usual - is to only vote for and rank those candidates you want to - or at least would be comfortable with - being elected and no more.   So in Scotland, you might see Indy supporters voting for the SNP, Greens, etc., and leaving it there and Unionists doing similar.

The other option, which is starting to get a bit of traction involves voting all the way down the list.   So say you were an Indy supporter, this might involve starting off with Indy parties, maybe some Independents, then Labour, Lib Dems and Tories last.    This is something which they use in Northern Ireland a lot and is colloquially known as Vote 'til you boak.

The difference between the two systems is that if you only vote for - say - the SNP and Greens, then once their candidates are either elected or eliminated then your vote is discarded and doesn't count any more.   If you vote all the way down the list then your vote remains active until the end and might actually have some impact.

The chances of this happening are relatively low, but they are not zero.

I think there was a case in NI in their last elections where the final seat in a constituency in - IIRC - Fermanagh, went to the SDLP rather the DUP as a result of exactly this tactic.

There seems to be a built in antipathy which is people looking at this tactic as "I'll never vote for them".   If you are ranking the Tory as 10/10, it's not so much that you are giving them your vote, rather that you are saying, they are literally the last person I would have represent me.

Thanks that's very helpful.

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1 hour ago, Hertsscot said:

Genuinely? None are perfect but some are surely worse than others.


hmmn yes, the least bad option….  I’m generally right wing, but want an independence option - makes it tricky…. .  It’s easy to see who would be last vote and that’s the Green Party - can I give them a negative vote?  Can’t face voting Tory really after party gate… Reform party standing?  Not sure about Alba…. Don’t know what they stand for.

as it’s council elections I’d like the roads fixed and the shambles that is edinburghs transport policy resolved….  Thought that Norrie rowan, the ex rugby player, is standing a an independent has good ideas, but not standing in my area.

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5 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

Okay I'm trying to get my head round voting in upcoming elections. System very different from down south 

Basically do I rank all candidates in order of preference, i. e. should I put Conservative and Unionist candidate last or not vote for them at all? I appreciate it may not swing the overall outcome but I'd be glad of any ideas from those who have more experience in these matters.

If you really hate the Tories (and why wouldn't you?) you should rank all the other candidates and leave the Tory box blank. That means your vote can't be transferred to a Tory. It might not make much difference but it will make you feel better. It did for me anyway. 😂

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4 hours ago, aaid said:



The other option, which is starting to get a bit of traction involves voting all the way down the list.   So say you were an Indy supporter, this might involve starting off with Indy parties, maybe some Independents, then Labour, Lib Dems and Tories last.    This is something which they use in Northern Ireland a lot and is colloquially known as Vote 'til you boak.

The difference between the two systems is that if you only vote for - say - the SNP and Greens, then once their candidates are either elected or eliminated then your vote is discarded and doesn't count any more.   If you vote all the way down the list then your vote remains active until the end and might actually have some impact.

The chances of this happening are relatively low, but they are not zero.

I think there was a case in NI in their last elections where the final seat in a constituency in - IIRC - Fermanagh, went to the SDLP rather the DUP as a result of exactly this tactic.

There seems to be a built in antipathy which is people looking at this tactic as "I'll never vote for them".   If you are ranking the Tory as 10/10, it's not so much that you are giving them your vote, rather that you are saying, they are literally the last person I would have represent me.

 

That's how i do it over here as we use STV for everything. I'm not 100% sure it's the best way of achieving your ideal outcome though - there still seems to be debate over it.

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5 hours ago, Orraloon said:

If you really hate the Tories (and why wouldn't you?) you should rank all the other candidates and leave the Tory box blank. That means your vote can't be transferred to a Tory. It might not make much difference but it will make you feel better. It did for me anyway. 😂


i might do this but leave the Greens blank.

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It seems to me the key point is that if independence is your priority, it's best to vote for all the pro indy candidates even if you don't like some of those parties, so SNP supporters should still give votes to Alba, and vice versa, as long as you don't hate the other lot so much you'd literally rather have a Tory (to put it crudely).

And the equivalent in the opposite direction (between say Labour voting Tory and vice versa) if you are pro union. 

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10 hours ago, exile said:

It seems to me the key point is that if independence is your priority, it's best to vote for all the pro indy candidates even if you don't like some of those parties, so SNP supporters should still give votes to Alba, and vice versa, as long as you don't hate the other lot so much you'd literally rather have a Tory (to put it crudely).

And the equivalent in the opposite direction (between say Labour voting Tory and vice versa) if you are pro union. 

Yeah, but it’s council elections…. Which party is going to fix the roads and get rid of the spaces for people nonsense.  Someone suggest turning princes street garden in to a multi story and building a three lane motorway through Edinburgh 😊

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7 hours ago, Malcolm said:

Yeah, but it’s council elections…. Which party is going to fix the roads and get rid of the spaces for people nonsense.  Someone suggest turning princes street garden in to a multi story and building a three lane motorway through Edinburgh 😊

I agree but same in England as well. These elections rightly or wrongly are going to be interpreted in a much wider context. I might believe the local Tory would be good on the local council but no way would I vote for her/ him as it would seem to be a vote of confidence for the Tory Government at national level. Similarly the local SNP candidate might not be too inspiring but they'll be number 1 or else the media will be saying that there's no appetite for indy. Not great but I think that has to be the way it is at present.

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8 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

I agree but same in England as well. These elections rightly or wrongly are going to be interpreted in a much wider context. I might believe the local Tory would be good on the local council but no way would I vote for her/ him as it would seem to be a vote of confidence for the Tory Government at national level. Similarly the local SNP candidate might not be too inspiring but they'll be number 1 or else the media will be saying that there's no appetite for indy. Not great but I think that has to be the way it is at present.

Yes, that's what I meant. Some may be pro indy but not see it as a priority for local elections. But others will. So for them rightly or wrongly every election becomes a proxy referendum.

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this will be a very very interesting local elections, it will be a indicator of the mood of the general public,will the snps insane gender policies and stance on oil and gas push voters away and if so where to, will tory voters stick with them after all thats happened down south, hopefully no cunt votes for the lib dems,, i have a feeling there will be a move away from the snp and tories,, it worries me that labour picks up the protest vote. will alba pick up protest votes? i believe they will but unsure to what extent. you also have the independents,, what part will they play 

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On 4/28/2022 at 7:33 AM, Malcolm said:

Yeah, but it’s council elections…. Which party is going to fix the roads and get rid of the spaces for people nonsense.  Someone suggest turning princes street garden in to a multi story and building a three lane motorway through Edinburgh 😊

It sounds like the ideal candidates for you would be the 1970s Glasgow Labour council. Got a historic city? They'll build a motorway through the middle of it. Nice, ornate building?  They'll knock it down and build a concrete monstrosity instead.

Unfortunately they're all in their nineties and/or dead now, so they're probably not a realistic option. 😕

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3 hours ago, Och Aye said:

The only time I've heard people discuss gender policy is on this board. It really effects very few people. Not a big deal to most, seems a big issue on here for some reason tho.

Me Too.

 

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1 hour ago, scotlad said:

It sounds like the ideal candidates for you would be the 1970s Glasgow Labour council. Got a historic city? They'll build a motorway through the middle of it. Nice, ornate building?  They'll knock it down and build a concrete monstrosity instead.

Unfortunately they're all in their nineties and/or dead now, so they're probably not a realistic option. 😕


my post was a bit in jest, but we need a return to sensible road improvements and the removal of this anti car clowncil in Edinburgh 

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58 minutes ago, Malcolm said:


my post was a bit in jest, but we need a return to sensible road improvements and the removal of this anti car clowncil in Edinburgh 

I've always found Edinburgh difficult to get around by car, although half of it was built in medieval times so it's understandable!

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12 minutes ago, scotlad said:

I've always found Edinburgh difficult to get around by car, although half of it was built in medieval times so it's understandable!

If only they had a bypass which isn't a massive car park any time I seem to try to use it. 😂

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