Ukraine

[phart]

To be fair should see the report on Russia from Amnesty. Also released yesterday.

War crimes, unleashing the worst humanitarian crisis in europe since world war II, unlawful targeting and killing of civilians and infrastructure. Using surrender or starve tactics, siege tactics on civilians. Use of banned weapons. Show trials. Imprisoment, censorship and  disinformation as part of unleashing "an unprecedented, nationwide crackdown on independent journalism, anti-war protests and dissenting voices following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine."

 

 

Edited August 5, 2022 by phart

[phart]

I see some consternation about the report

Here's one opinion from a UN war crimes investigator

 

[phart]

Although on further inspection that dude might be a bit dodgy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Garlasco

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112900014

Edited August 6, 2022 by phart

[thplinth]

8 hours ago, Malcolm said:

Not sure you quite appreciate the seriousness of the situation.  This is a collapse of society on the cards. Millions of families destitute. 

The energy bills are the top of the iceberg, the recession that follows will mean there will be millions unemployed and no money to pay these bills and vast swathes of housing repossession.  Hardship like never before and violent crime will follow.  

8 hours ago, Malcolm said:

there is no positive pie.  There is only bad pie or catastrophic pie.  At best (and this assumes a plan similar to Labours or even the suggestion by the energy companies), there is a freeze at the current price cap. We will still have a recession, it will be difficult for many families and tough times.

with no intervention you get catastrophic and then doomsday scenarios.  We are already looking like £6k average h9me  bill. If Russia switches off altogether, all bets are off on the price cap.  Small to medium businesses will no longer be viable.  Mass unemployment, no money in the economy.  It will be worse that the 30s.

So how did your sanctions work out? 😀 And it has only been a few months. 😀 And it is not even winter. 😀

 

[Malcolm]

4 minutes ago, thplinth said:

So how did your sanctions work out? 😀 And it has only been a few months. 😀 And it is not even winter. 😀

 

completely agree with you.  I still believe that sanctions were the right course of action.  The consequence of this is on our previous governments lack of investment in energy security.  They have been negligent in leaving us badly exposed to this scenario, like having no nuclear deterrent.

you are totally correct in your point about this being the start of this.  I don’t think the general public have grasped the seriousness of this situation.

some very big calls will have to be made.  Do nothing is not an option as we will end up with societal breakdown.  So the government has to subsidise this by printing money in some form, dragging our already weak currency down further, but for how long can that go on?

I imagine pressure will come to either push Ukraine to accept a deal, or even the possibility of an escalation of war with Russia.  It depends how desperate things become.

 

 

[thplinth]

37 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

completely agree with you.  I still believe that sanctions were the right course of action.  

😀 Got to stop you there Malc's. You are literally predicting societal collapse in a whole series of 'the end is nigh' posts on the News thread with each one getting more and more doom laden... Yet just a year ago, 6 months even, none of this existed... it has all came about as a direct result of your suicidal sanctions, that you wanted on this thread. You clearly knew we did not have Oil & Gas storage 6 months ago, you knew we weren't energy secure 6 months ago... yet you wanted the sanctions 6 months ago. ooookaaaay. Seems like Tories have a problem thinking through the consequences of their actions which sure would explain a lot we have seen this last few years.

So I don't think you can post all that on one thread and them come on this one and make such a ludicrous statement. Cause and effect. You caused this effect.

It is at least at a UK level down to the Tories as they have been in charge of the UK for 12 years now. The negligence, corruption and mismanagement is off the scale. We saw the naked graft with  the PPE scandals but the list is huge. The damage done is now really starting to manifest and coalesce into a potential societal horror show (as predicted by you on the News Thread, over and over and over again).

What we need to do is reverse the sanctions. Chances of that happening right now, 0%, because people can't even admit they were a mistake despite 6 grand fuels bills, rampant borderline hyperinflation, absurd fuel costs, and a significant chance of a nuclear exchange on mainland Europe as well as riots and imminent societal collapse.

Then throw in what we the West really did in Ukraine 2014-2022 that led directly to this war and that covid was very likely made in a lab... oh boy. 

[Malcolm]

1 hour ago, thplinth said:

😀 Got to stop you there Malc's. You are literally predicting societal collapse in a whole series of 'the end is nigh' posts on the News thread with each one getting more and more doom laden... Yet just a year ago, 6 months even, none of this existed... it has all came about as a direct result of your suicidal sanctions, that you wanted on this thread. You clearly knew we did not have Oil & Gas storage 6 months ago, you knew we weren't energy secure 6 months ago... yet you wanted the sanctions 6 months ago. ooookaaaay. Seems like Tories have a problem thinking through the consequences of their actions which sure would explain a lot we have seen this last few years.

So I don't think you can post all that on one thread and them come on this one and make such a ludicrous statement. Cause and effect. You caused this effect.

It is at least at a UK level down to the Tories as they have been in charge of the UK for 12 years now. The negligence, corruption and mismanagement is off the scale. We saw the naked graft with  the PPE scandals but the list is huge. The damage done is now really starting to manifest and coalesce into a potential societal horror show (as predicted by you on the News Thread, over and over and over again).

What we need to do is reverse the sanctions. Chances of that happening right now, 0%, because people can't even admit they were a mistake despite 6 grand fuels bills, rampant borderline hyperinflation, absurd fuel costs, and a significant chance of a nuclear exchange on mainland Europe as well as riots and imminent societal collapse.

Then throw in what we the West really did in Ukraine 2014-2022 that led directly to this war and that covid was very likely made in a lab... oh boy. 

The mistake was not securing our energy supply.  Better get nuclear, fracking and oil going asap.  No, I hadn’t realised that our dependence was so high, and yes, that is a catastrophic mistake.  

[Ally Bongo]

If we had just appeased Hitler in the late 30s we wouldnt have had to endure rationing

[thplinth]

Wow... Do Western politicians listen to a word he says. Clearly not.

 

[thplinth]

What should have been a big wake-up call for Europeans was ISIS. That was essentially a mercenary army paid for by the US and her vassals.

ISIS came within a ball-hair of overrunning Syria and in doing so created a massive refugee crisis that threatened to overwhelm Europe. It was still really bad but it would have been totally catastrophic had ISIS not been defeated. 

And who defeated them? The crucial intervention was when Russia intervened and assisted Assad with air support. That turned the war and saved Syria and Europe from the terrible consequences of those utter savages overrunning them.

Do people not remember the utter depravity of ISIS, they were off the scale in terms of war crimes and torture. Really  depraved and perverted stuff with Hollywood production levels. Burning people alive in cages and filming it. Ethnic cleansing, genocide, the works. And that was a mercenary army sponsored by the US and her vassals. Think about it.

If Russia had not helped Syria defeat ISIS, a mercenary army of off-the-scale savages paid for by the US and her vassals, then Europe would have seen a truly massive, unprecedented refugee crisis.

That was the plan they had in store for us had Russia not intervened and helped the Syrian army defeat ISIS in 2015 (I think it was). So again with friends like this, do you need enemies?

On top of that they killed Gadhafi and totally destabilized Libya. Libya was a key country in containing mass uncontrolled immigration, his overthrow / assassination (and let's not forget he was sodomized with a bayonet before being killed) was also deliberately destabilizing for Europe, and Libya predictably became a massive transit hub for mass uncontrolled immigration into Europe, still is. It also now has slave markets.

At roughly the same time our friends organize literal neo-nazis to overthrow the democratically elected president of a European country and spend the next 8 years encouraging them to attack the ethnic Russian population of Ukraine until eventually and inevitably it escalates to where we are now and guess what... another refugee crisis.

Anyone seeing the pattern here?

They (including most European leaders) don't give a fuck about Europeans anymore than they did about Syrians, Libyans, Iraqis... we are just as expendable to them as they were and yet they are supposed to be our 'ally'. 

European economies are cratering and a massive economic poison pill has been administered the consequences of which are yet to truly manifest. And for whose benefit? Certainly not ours.

After all they have done over the last 20 years do you really believe they give a shit about Ukrainians and Europeans. We are just disposable pawns to them. Their actions have clearly demonstrated that. 

[Ally Bongo]

Hard to tell if that is the Republican right or Russian propaganda now

[Toepoke]

Criticism of our NHS is often justified but we've never had a problem like this...

https://news.sky.com/story/russian-oil-boss-ravil-maganov-who-criticised-war-in-ukraine-dies-after-falling-from-hospital-window-12686753

 

[phart]

1 hour ago, Toepoke said:

Criticism of our NHS is often justified but we've never had a problem like this...

https://news.sky.com/story/russian-oil-boss-ravil-maganov-who-criticised-war-in-ukraine-dies-after-falling-from-hospital-window-12686753

 

Defenestration seems to be the leading cause of death in Russian war critics.

[thplinth]

Could have been worse, they could have incinerated his daughter in a car bomb. Funny what gets mentioned and what doesn’t. 

[aaid]

Ukrainian counter offensive seems to be gathering force and having an impact. 

[ger intae them]

On 9/10/2022 at 5:06 PM, aaid said:

Ukrainian counter offensive seems to be gathering force and having an impact. 

…….. says western media

[Toepoke]

On 9/10/2022 at 5:06 PM, aaid said:

Ukrainian counter offensive seems to be gathering force and having an impact. 

The locals certainly seem pleased to see the backs of the Russians. The security of the nuclear plant is a bit concerning though...

https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/video/ukraine-quickly-seized-ground-pushing-out-russians-from-the-kharkiv-region-148200517836

 

[aaid]

11 hours ago, ger intae them said:

…….. says western media

Al Jazeera good enough for you?

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2022/9/11/russia-ukraine-live-news-ukraine-pushes-major-counteroffensive

[er yir macaroon]

Senior Russian officials told to evacuate Crimea according to Twitter reports. 

[Ally Bongo]

[aaid]

When did anyone who was in a confident position feel the need to tell people that they weren’t bluffing?

[Orraloon]

1 hour ago, aaid said:

When did anyone who was in a confident position feel the need to tell people that they weren’t bluffing?

The person who wants the opposition to think that they are bluffing. 

[aaid]

38 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

The person who wants the opposition to think that they are bluffing. 

That’s what they want you to think though. 

[Orraloon]

48 minutes ago, aaid said:

That’s what they want you to think though. 

Or is it?????

[Hertsscot]

Just something that hit me from last night's match. Walking past Ukraine fans queueing at the turnstiles. I can't recall seeing any young men. Thought it was quite poignant.