Harvey Barnes

[Caledonian Craig]

13 hours ago, breeks_mctavish said:

Fair enough Craig, you make your point clearly. Personally, I do think it’s more nuanced than you think. My son’s only 10 and he’s flipped back and forth. He used to call himself Scottish, then English, then half Scottish. Quite possibly I’m a terrible parent and have confused the life out of him! If you’ve got dual nationality you can feel proud of coming from more than one country. You would absolutely represent either nation with total pride. I’m also sure you as a fan would cheer on all players in the Scotland team equally passionately whoever was selected. Now we can change the rules to make them less inclusive, sure. In reality, I don’t think that’s the way the wind is blowing in football or society.

Let’s say the rules did change. You could just imagine the respective FAs whispering in the ears of all the top dual nationality players as it approaches the deadline to sign the forms. It could be quite ugly.

Each to their own, but sorry not for me.

Yes I get that. As I said I have nephews who have English mother and a proud and passionate Scot as a father so I understand all about dual nationality. You have those cases which are genuine but then you have the absolute chancers as in players who cannot get a call-up for their preferred nation after waiting 5 to 10 years who then fancy a bit of international football for their CV and so use their second option. If you do not want something done about that then I am staggered. Many of them having never set foot on Scottish soil in their life summing up perfectly their real feeling for the country. That has to be stopped and ways into doing this should be found.

[todd]

10 hours ago, Bzzzz said:

Why would you compare club to country? totally different kettle of haddock. 

Is it though?  To me it would seem a bit hollow if, for example, I was Manchester born and bred and I'm celebrating success for my city that's been achieved by a team of players, none of whom have even the remotest connection to my city.  Is it really that different to wanting your country represented by players from your country?

[breeks_mctavish]

2 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Yes I get that. As I said I have nephews who have English mother and a proud and passionate Scot as a father so I understand all about dual nationality. You have those cases which are genuine but then you have the absolute chancers as in players who cannot get a call-up for their preferred nation after waiting 5 to 10 years who then fancy a bit of international football for their CV and so use their second option. If you do not want something done about that then I am staggered. Many of them having never set foot on Scottish soil in their life summing up perfectly their real feeling for the country. That has to be stopped and ways into doing this should be found.

I’m not opposed to a change in the rules. For example, in my opinion I wouldn’t have the grandparent rule. I’d only go back to parents (as long as all countries made the change). I also don’t think we should go begging to players, Clarke has himself said that if a player has said no before they must make contact to say they are interested. I am in favour of this.

The point I’ve been debating is specifically over the signing of a form. That is what I’m opposed to for reasons mentioned in a post somewhere above.
 

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by breeks_mctavish

[er yir macaroon]

2 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Yes I get that. As I said I have nephews who have English mother and a proud and passionate Scot as a father so I understand all about dual nationality. You have those cases which are genuine but then you have the absolute chancers as in players who cannot get a call-up for their preferred nation after waiting 5 to 10 years who then fancy a bit of international football for their CV and so use their second option. If you do not want something done about that then I am staggered. Many of them having never set foot on Scottish soil in their life summing up perfectly their real feeling for the country. That has to be stopped and ways into doing this should be found.

Fair point, also. Get rid of the chancers but keep those who genuinely have feelings for more than one nation. I’m not sure where Che Adams fits…

Incidentally, concerning Adams, I like his physical approach and hold up play, but he is not a good finisher and is definitely not quick (everyone seems to assume he is - watch where he was put through almost one on one in the Israel game), but he does run a lot. 

[Orraloon]

20 hours ago, breeks_mctavish said:

I was being facetious on that point Craig. But you do sound a bit like you might be holding a gun. You’re not, are you?

😂

[Orraloon]

6 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

 Many of them having never set foot on Scottish soil in their life summing up perfectly their real feeling for the country. That has to be stopped and ways into doing this should be found.

That solution wouldn't involve guns, would it? 😉 

[Hertsscot]

21 hours ago, breeks_mctavish said:

Fair enough Craig, you make your point clearly. Personally, I do think it’s more nuanced than you think. My son’s only 10 and he’s flipped back and forth. He used to call himself Scottish, then English, then half Scottish. Quite possibly I’m a terrible parent and have confused the life out of him! If you’ve got dual nationality you can feel proud of coming from more than one country. You would absolutely represent either nation with total pride. I’m also sure you as a fan would cheer on all players in the Scotland team equally passionately whoever was selected. Now we can change the rules to make them less inclusive, sure. In reality, I don’t think that’s the way the wind is blowing in football or society.

Let’s say the rules did change. You could just imagine the respective FAs whispering in the ears of all the top dual nationality players as it approaches the deadline to sign the forms. It could be quite ugly.

Each to their own, but sorry not for me.

Agreed It is more complex than it has ever been. Look at the England squads, nearly half their players at all levels could play for someone else. Different patterns of immigration mean the situation is a bit different for us.

I don't like the idea that we are someone's second choice but the key thing is how committed they are once they are wearing the jersey. I taught Matt Holland, when he was 15 he introduced himself to me as the next Bryan Robson, who was England capt. at the time. One of Matt's brothers was the biggest England fan there was. The point is Matt played 49 times for Ireland and captained them. Not one Ireland fan would question Matt's commitment to them.  At 15 he would have seen himself as being English and today he would not have a problem wanting England to do well. But when he wore the green, he was 100% committed - that's what we want.

On a related note we were up in Newcastle the other week. My wife got her legs waxed, got talking about moving up to Scotland, how I indoctrinated our English born son into loyalty to Scotland etc. She turns out to be Elliot Anderson's cousin! Still a bit of a rug of war going on for him, let's hope he sees sense.

 

[Third Lanark]

7 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

Agreed It is more complex than it has ever been. Look at the England squads, nearly half their players at all levels could play for someone else. Different patterns of immigration mean the situation is a bit different for us.

I don't like the idea that we are someone's second choice but the key thing is how committed they are once they are wearing the jersey. I taught Matt Holland, when he was 15 he introduced himself to me as the next Bryan Robson, who was England capt. at the time. One of Matt's brothers was the biggest England fan there was. The point is Matt played 49 times for Ireland and captained them. Not one Ireland fan would question Matt's commitment to them.  At 15 he would have seen himself as being English and today he would not have a problem wanting England to do well. But when he wore the green, he was 100% committed - that's what we want.

On a related note we were up in Newcastle the other week. My wife got her legs waxed, got talking about moving up to Scotland, how I indoctrinated our English born son into loyalty to Scotland etc. She turns out to be Elliot Anderson's cousin! Still a bit of a rug of war going on for him, let's hope he sees sense.

 

The Matt Holland case is a good example. I don't think anyone thinks Che Adams commitment needs questioned. But I would doubt the likes of Matt Ritchie and Matt Elliott in the past. Let's not get carried away; we  only really have a couple of 'eligibles' in the squad at the moment - we're not talking about filling the squad with them.

[Caledonian Craig]

1 hour ago, Orraloon said:

That solution wouldn't involve guns, would it? 😉 

Only if it were Martin Jol. 😂

[Orraloon]

25 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

Agreed It is more complex than it has ever been. Look at the England squads, nearly half their players at all levels could play for someone else. Different patterns of immigration mean the situation is a bit different for us.

I don't like the idea that we are someone's second choice but the key thing is how committed they are once they are wearing the jersey. I taught Matt Holland, when he was 15 he introduced himself to me as the next Bryan Robson, who was England capt. at the time. One of Matt's brothers was the biggest England fan there was. The point is Matt played 49 times for Ireland and captained them. Not one Ireland fan would question Matt's commitment to them.  At 15 he would have seen himself as being English and today he would not have a problem wanting England to do well. But when he wore the green, he was 100% committed - that's what we want.

On a related note we were up in Newcastle the other week. My wife got her legs waxed, got talking about moving up to Scotland, how I indoctrinated our English born son into loyalty to Scotland etc. She turns out to be Elliot Anderson's cousin! Still a bit of a rug of war going on for him, let's hope he sees sense.

 

I'm assuming that's bit of waxing terminology you've picked up there?

[breeks_mctavish]

36 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

I'm assuming that's bit of waxing terminology you've picked up there?

Brilliant 😂

[ProudScot]

1 hour ago, Hertsscot said:

Agreed It is more complex than it has ever been. Look at the England squads, nearly half their players at all levels could play for someone else. Different patterns of immigration mean the situation is a bit different for us.

I don't like the idea that we are someone's second choice but the key thing is how committed they are once they are wearing the jersey. I taught Matt Holland, when he was 15 he introduced himself to me as the next Bryan Robson, who was England capt. at the time. One of Matt's brothers was the biggest England fan there was. The point is Matt played 49 times for Ireland and captained them. Not one Ireland fan would question Matt's commitment to them.  At 15 he would have seen himself as being English and today he would not have a problem wanting England to do well. But when he wore the green, he was 100% committed - that's what we want.

On a related note we were up in Newcastle the other week. My wife got her legs waxed, got talking about moving up to Scotland, how I indoctrinated our English born son into loyalty to Scotland etc. She turns out to be Elliot Anderson's cousin! Still a bit of a rug of war going on for him, let's hope he sees sense.

 

From Matt Holland to leg waxing! Brilliant 

[Hertsscot]

2 hours ago, Orraloon said:

I'm assuming that's bit of waxing terminology you've picked up there?

Spelling mistake (honest!)

[noctonjock]

To be honest we need a decent winger whether it be Barnes or one of our own . Cant rely on wing backs all the time to supply crosses for the strikers . I think we have a lot of goals in this team if the final ball is there 

[Third Lanark]

11 minutes ago, noctonjock said:

To be honest we need a decent winger whether it be Barnes or one of our own . Cant rely on wing backs all the time to supply crosses for the strikers . I think we have a lot of goals in this team if the final ball is there 

Been saying this for a while; if we had some good wide players our need for a number nine or ten would not be so great. Good to see Johnston back tonight, but we need Scott Wright and maybe Middleton to develop. Also Kai Kennedy - about time he started to show his potential.

[Bzzzz]

20 hours ago, csinclair said:

People can have more than one country 

No in international fitba ye cannae. 

[Bzzzz]

11 hours ago, todd said:

Is it though?  To me it would seem a bit hollow if, for example, I was Manchester born and bred and I'm celebrating success for my city that's been achieved by a team of players, none of whom have even the remotest connection to my city.  Is it really that different to wanting your country represented by players from your country?

Supporting your national team is about standing with your fellow country fellas and lassies. Completely different. 

[adamntg]

1 hour ago, Bzzzz said:

No in international fitba ye cannae. 

What about Di Stefano or Puskas?

[BraveheartGordon]

Always find the arguments about whether it’s right to call someone up on the grandparent time a bit ridiculous when so many countries regularly fill their squad  with players who have qualified through often spurious citizenship rules.

Its easy to argue our traditionalism in this regard has held us back at times.

7 of the most recent Portugal squad weren’t born in Portugal for instance. 

[todd]

11 hours ago, BraveheartGordon said:

Always find the arguments about whether it’s right to call someone up on the grandparent time a bit ridiculous when so many countries regularly fill their squad  with players who have qualified through often spurious citizenship rules.

Its easy to argue our traditionalism in this regard has held us back at times.

7 of the most recent Portugal squad weren’t born in Portugal for instance. 

Exactly right

[thesaint]

18 hours ago, Bzzzz said:

No in international fitba ye cannae. 

100% correct.

[thesaint]

27 minutes ago, todd said:

Exactly right

Horrible.Exactly what is the point of having your national team filled with players who have no connection with your country.The outcome of doing that makes international and club football identical.It's totally ridiculous.

[todd]

2 hours ago, thesaint said:

Horrible.Exactly what is the point of having your national team filled with players who have no connection with your country.The outcome of doing that makes international and club football identical.It's totally ridiculous.

But like the guy said,  it's good enough for Portugal, do you think they're ridiculous?

[ProudScot]

13 minutes ago, todd said:

But like the guy said,  it's good enough for Portugal, do you think they're ridiculous?

Also do you think Portugal fans give a fuck 

[gkm_vancouver]

It's a bit ridiculous folk making judgements on players when they cannot possibly know all the factors and circumstances that are taken into account when these choices arise. 

The rules have been changed and that is what we should be working to. In any event, it appears Clarke looked at Barnes already in 2019 along with Adams and Fredericks, so would appear unlikely that Barnes will be an option now.