Tino Livramento - Page 2 - TA specific - Tartan Army Message Board Jump to content

Tino Livramento


Eassy
 Share

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

In fairness to McTominay though he never represented another country in the interim like Livramento has and has done for several years too.

Call me old-fashioned and an idealist if you want but I believe you know your nationality and that remains the case throughout life. Nationality is not interchangeable by trivial matters like lack of opportunities for your preferred nation. You make your bed and you lie in it.

I understand what you’re saying… this is about Dandydunn knickerwetting about Hickey not Livramento though 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 93
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

34 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I am talking about how the individual feels. Now, as I said earlier, I may be a traditionalist or idealist but as a person you know where your heart is. You know when watching World Cups as a boy and who you root for and ache and crave to win. That goes with you throughout life whoever you are. And the fact he was born in England and has been representing England for a few years says it all. There is no Scottish in his heart. I'd be surprised if he has even set foot on Scottish soil in his life.

I can’t say for sure with this particular person but neither can you or anyone else. Only he could tell you. 

What I do know is a lot of people with parents of different nationalities can consider themselves from both countries and sometimes find it hard to nail their flag to one or the other. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Texas Pete said:

I can’t say for sure with this particular person but neither can you or anyone else. Only he could tell you. 

What I do know is a lot of people with parents of different nationalities can consider themselves from both countries and sometimes find it hard to nail their flag to one or the other. 

We are all human beings are we not? And we all have had that excitement as a kid when we watch international matches and craving a Scotland win or whatever nation you align yourself with. That is a unique sensation that is the give away to what nationality you truly feel. From there it progresses on to ambitions to play for that country.

FACT: Livramento was born in England. Went to school in England and grep up there and went on to represent them at various levels for a few years now, If that does not indicate who he feels the greatest affinity for then I give up.

If that were me and I felt an affinity to represent Scotland I'd be putting it out there and announcing my affinity and turn down England's approach. The fact he did neither says it all.

Edited by Caledonian Craig
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

We are all human beings are we not? And we all have had that excitement as a kid when we watch international matches and craving a Scotland win or whatever nation you align yourself with. That is a unique sensation that is the give away to what nationality you truly feel. From there it progresses on to ambitions to play for that country.

FACT: Livramento was born in England. Went to school in England and grep up there and went on to represent them at various levels for a few years now, If that does not indicate who he feels the greatest affinity for then I give up.

If that were me and I felt an affinity to represent Scotland I'd be putting it out there and announcing my affinity and turn down England's approach. The fact he did neither says it all.

We are all human but we are all different. Do you think everyone is exactly the same when it comes to supporting a national team? Odd. 

I have a mate that is half Italian and he genuinely struggles when Scotland play Italy. 

I don’t have the first clue about this Livramento guy but if he was to come out tomorrow and says he considers himself Scottish and English but now wants to play for Scotland I wouldn’t have a problem with that.

If he has never set foot in Scotland and doesn’t give a toss about us and changes  his mind later when he realises he’s not good enough for England then he can sod off. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Texas Pete said:

We are all human but we are all different. Do you think everyone is exactly the same when it comes to supporting a national team? Odd. 

I have a mate that is half Italian and he genuinely struggles when Scotland play Italy. 

I don’t have the first clue about this Livramento guy but if he was to come out tomorrow and says he considers himself Scottish and English but now wants to play for Scotland I wouldn’t have a problem with that.

If he has never set foot in Scotland and doesn’t give a toss about us and changes  his mind later when he realises he’s not good enough for England then he can sod off. 

Human and different.....yes. But when it comes to how you feel internally there is no difference. We watch football as kids and get excited when the nation we feel aligned with scores. Livramento is no different there. He obviously had a talent for football and so he'd have been harbouring ambitions of who to play for. You'd need to be damned stupid to think that, someone born in England, brought up in England, schooled in England and representing England actually holds a hidden desire to play for Scotland. Now if he had originally represented us or there are articles out there where he speaks of wanting to play for us then I'd take that as a clue to how he feels. There is none of that at all. His life so far is following a path I'd expect of someone born and brought up in England. He wants to represent only them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Texas Pete said:

We are all human but we are all different. Do you think everyone is exactly the same when it comes to supporting a national team? Odd. 

I have a mate that is half Italian and he genuinely struggles when Scotland play Italy. 

I don’t have the first clue about this Livramento guy but if he was to come out tomorrow and says he considers himself Scottish and English but now wants to play for Scotland I wouldn’t have a problem with that.

If he has never set foot in Scotland and doesn’t give a toss about us and changes  his mind later when he realises he’s not good enough for England then he can sod off. 

That last paragraph makes me think of Matt Ritchie. It really bothered me that the first time he set foot in Scotland was on his debut. Wasn't his Dad born in Scotland because the family were on holiday there? I.e basically no affiliation to our country. However, saying all that, if Ritchie had been fully committed and had a similar Scotland career to James Morrison, I could still have accepted that. Has Ritchie "retired" from international football, or did he stop getting selected. He must have ended up with less than 10 caps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Human and different.....yes. But when it comes to how you feel internally there is no difference. We watch football as kids and get excited when the nation we feel aligned with scores. Livramento is no different there. He obviously had a talent for football and so he'd have been harbouring ambitions of who to play for. You'd need to be damned stupid to think that, someone born in England, brought up in England, schooled in England and representing England actually holds a hidden desire to play for Scotland. Now if he had originally represented us or there are articles out there where he speaks of wanting to play for us then I'd take that as a clue to how he feels. There is none of that at all. His life so far is following a path I'd expect of someone born and brought up in England. He wants to represent only them.

Well that’s that settled then. You’ve sussed him without knowing much about him. 

I don’t know the first thing about him so I’ll reserve judgement until he actually comes out and states how he feels. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Texas Pete said:

Well that’s that settled then. You’ve sussed him without knowing much about him. 

I don’t know the first thing about him so I’ll reserve judgement until he actually comes out and states how he feels. 

Well he has done that by choosing to represent England. Unless, of course, we are accusing him of playing for them under duress or with no real desire to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Well he has done that by choosing to represent England. Unless, of course, we are accusing him of playing for them under duress or with no real desire to.

I don’t think there’s any suggestion of that.

If he feels as English as he does Scottish he  would have no reason to turn down the chance to represent England.  If we had approached him first he might have played for our youth teams.

In all likelihood you are probably right but I wouldn’t write the guy off yet. He is actually half Scottish by the sound of it so It’s not as if he’s one of these guys that has next to no connection with us other than a grandparent that moved to Scotland as a toddler. 

We’ll see how it pans out but I have a feeling we’ll never hear about him again in terms of playing for Scotland. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Tartan blood said:

That last paragraph makes me think of Matt Ritchie. It really bothered me that the first time he set foot in Scotland was on his debut. Wasn't his Dad born in Scotland because the family were on holiday there? I.e basically no affiliation to our country. However, saying all that, if Ritchie had been fully committed and had a similar Scotland career to James Morrison, I could still have accepted that. Has Ritchie "retired" from international football, or did he stop getting selected. He must have ended up with less than 10 caps.

His heart was never in it. He was definitely a prime of example of someone trying to enhance their CV to get a better deal at his club. 

I don’t think he actually ever retired from international but he pulled out of so many squads we’d never know the difference. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Tartan blood said:

That last paragraph makes me think of Matt Ritchie. It really bothered me that the first time he set foot in Scotland was on his debut. Wasn't his Dad born in Scotland because the family were on holiday there? I.e basically no affiliation to our country. However, saying all that, if Ritchie had been fully committed and had a similar Scotland career to James Morrison, I could still have accepted that. Has Ritchie "retired" from international football, or did he stop getting selected. He must have ended up with less than 10 caps.

It was Phil Bardsley who was eligibile for us due to his father being born here whilst Bardsley's grandparents were on holiday.

Matt Ritchie got sixteen caps for us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I imagine the lad might or might not feel a connection to both Portugal and Scotland, but he's English it seems. Played for them at every age level, and fair dues.

Still, good for him to know that at 25 or so he has a fall back, haha in us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, dandydunn said:

He played on Sunday and scored, pulls out (injured) then plays on Friday and scored. 
 

Doesn’t seem like a massive concern to me. 

You realise there’s a massive difference between strolling a bounce game while monitoring a knock and playing an international?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ErsatzThistle said:

It was Phil Bardsley who was eligibile for us due to his father being born here whilst Bardsley's grandparents were on holiday.

Matt Ritchie got sixteen caps for us.

Ah okay, I've probably conflated the 2 then. Either way, I'm sure it was Ritchie that said he'd never even been to Scotland.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Texas Pete said:

His heart was never in it. He was definitely a prime of example of someone trying to enhance their CV to get a better deal at his club. 

I don’t think he actually ever retired from international but he pulled out of so many squads we’d never know the difference. 

These are the kind of eligibles we want to avoid these days. It does us no favours long term, or even medium term. We have a solid squad now, no need to trawl the river bed anymore.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Tartan blood said:

These are the kind of eligibles we want to avoid these days. It does us no favours long term, or even medium term. We have a solid squad now, no need to trawl the river bed anymore.

You can tell most if not all of the current squad are committed as there are very few withdrawals at the moment compared to a couple of years ago. 

There are maybe some question marks over Ryan Fraser and maybe one or two others but Clarke seems to be creating a club environment similar to what Craig Brown did in the 90s. It’s amazing the difference a settled squad and consistent starting 11 can do and this can only be achieved by picking players that actually want to play for Scotland. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Human and different.....yes. But when it comes to how you feel internally there is no difference. We watch football as kids and get excited when the nation we feel aligned with scores. Livramento is no different there. He obviously had a talent for football and so he'd have been harbouring ambitions of who to play for. You'd need to be damned stupid to think that, someone born in England, brought up in England, schooled in England and representing England actually holds a hidden desire to play for Scotland. Now if he had originally represented us or there are articles out there where he speaks of wanting to play for us then I'd take that as a clue to how he feels. There is none of that at all. His life so far is following a path I'd expect of someone born and brought up in England. He wants to represent only them.

You seem to know alot about how somebody else thinks. Are any of your parents from another country, have you been brought up in a country other than Scotland?

The boy may very well want to play for England but that doesnt mean that he doesnt also want to play for Scotland or Portugal. There are many many factors that should be taken into consideration however at the end of the day its the boys choice. If he wants to play for England U21 but then later decides be wants to play for Scotland then who are you to say he shouldnt be allowed. 

Were all your views on life decided by the time you were 16?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Texas Pete said:

You can tell most if not all of the current squad are committed as there are very few withdrawals at the moment compared to a couple of years ago. 

There are maybe some question marks over Ryan Fraser and maybe one or two others but Clarke seems to be creating a club environment similar to what Craig Brown did in the 90s. It’s amazing the difference a settled squad and consistent starting 11 can do and this can only be achieved by picking players that actually want to play for Scotland. 

Committed is the key word here. Nothing to do with the route that led the person to be selected.

Ryan Fraser was born and bred in Scotland, played at youth level but people question his commitment. Likewise countless others in the past like Barry Ferguson.

We have had non Scottish born players who appear to not be overly committed and others who would appear to have run through brick walls for the shirt.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

Committed is the key word here. Nothing to do with the route that led the person to be selected.

Ryan Fraser was born and bred in Scotland, played at youth level but people question his commitment. Likewise countless others in the past like Barry Ferguson.

We have had non Scottish born players who appear to not be overly committed and others who would appear to have run through brick walls for the shirt.

 

Fraser pulled out of many a squad in the past. I am a massive fan of him but his commitment to Scotland in his early years was questionable. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

You seem to know alot about how somebody else thinks. Are any of your parents from another country, have you been brought up in a country other than Scotland?

The boy may very well want to play for England but that doesnt mean that he doesnt also want to play for Scotland or Portugal. There are many many factors that should be taken into consideration however at the end of the day its the boys choice. If he wants to play for England U21 but then later decides be wants to play for Scotland then who are you to say he shouldnt be allowed. 

Were all your views on life decided by the time you were 16?

Sorry but 'may' want to play for England? He was asked and IS playing for England. And that is the natural progression you'd expect from someone born there, raised there, schooled there, built a chain of friendships and memories there and now representing England. Not one crumb of clues to suggest he has even given Scotland a second thought. I'd sooner respect his choice of representing the country he has lived his whole life in as should be the way. And to think (for any reason at all) he should suddenly have thoughts about playing for us are fanciful bordering on the ridiculous.

I am offering my opinion on the many clues laid before us:

1. Born in England

2. Raised in England

3. Schooled in England

4. Represented England at several levels already.

I'd say he's made his decision following his heart. Looking at the clues I'd say he only feels affinity to England and that is how it should be given how his life has panned out.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

Committed is the key word here. Nothing to do with the route that led the person to be selected.

Ryan Fraser was born and bred in Scotland, played at youth level but people question his commitment. Likewise countless others in the past like Barry Ferguson.

We have had non Scottish born players who appear to not be overly committed and others who would appear to have run through brick walls for the shirt.

 

Absolutely. It’s all about attitude. Don Hutchison, for example, wasn’t born or brought up in Scotland but he loved playing for his country. Lots of others like that as well. 

Lots of guys who were born and brought up in Scotland just didn’t care enough about it. Sad fact is some players aren’t that bothered about international football. In fact some see it as an inconvenience. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Sorry but 'may' want to play for England? He was asked and IS playing for England. And that is the natural progression you'd expect from someone born there, raised there, schooled there, built a chain of friendships and memories there and now representing England. Not one crumb of clues to suggest he has even given Scotland a second thought. I'd sooner respect his choice of representing the country he has lived his whole life in as should be the way. And to think (for any reason at all) he should suddenly have thoughts about playing for us are fanciful bordering on the ridiculous.

I am offering my opinion on the many clues laid before us:

1. Born in England

2. Raised in England

3. Schooled in England

4. Represented England at several levels already.

I'd say he's made his decision following his heart. Looking at the clues I'd say he only feels affinity to England and that is how it should be given how his life has panned out.

 

Points 1-3 are extentions of the same point. Point 4 only shows that he wants to represent England, not that he doesnt want to represent Scotland or Portugal. 

Every conclusion you jump to is based on zero knowledge of the boy, his upbringing or his mind.

If somebody is born in Australia to Scottish parents, is raised in Australia, schooled in Australia, speaks with an Australian accent and has played for all the Australian youth teams. Does that in your opinion mean that he isnt Scottish and shouldnt represent Scotland should he be asked and choose to?

Or should he refuse all opportunities to play international level football until he can get on a long haul flight to come back to a country he has never set foot in? 

Im aware England isnt a long haul flight aware, just highlighting how your very narrow criteria would rule this example out.

Nationality can be complex. One of my best friends is born and raised in Scotland to an Italian father. All through childhood he considered himself Scottish, made no attempt to speak Italian or align himself with them. However as he got opder and moved away from School etc, and no doubt got closer to his Dad as his dad was nearing his later years, he learned Italian, visits Italy reguarly and would now describe himself as Scottish and Italian. Raises his own kids as Scottish / Italian.  Again under your strict rules he couldnt play for Italy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

Points 1-3 are extentions of the same point. Point 4 only shows that he wants to represent England, not that he doesnt want to represent Scotland or Portugal. 

Every conclusion you jump to is based on zero knowledge of the boy, his upbringing or his mind.

If somebody is born in Australia to Scottish parents, is raised in Australia, schooled in Australia, speaks with an Australian accent and has played for all the Australian youth teams. Does that in your opinion mean that he isnt Scottish and shouldnt represent Scotland should he be asked and choose to?

Or should he refuse all opportunities to play international level football until he can get on a long haul flight to come back to a country he has never set foot in? 

Im aware England isnt a long haul flight aware, just highlighting how your very narrow criteria would rule this example out.

Nationality can be complex. One of my best friends is born and raised in Scotland to an Italian father. All through childhood he considered himself Scottish, made no attempt to speak Italian or align himself with them. However as he got opder and moved away from School etc, and no doubt got closer to his Dad as his dad was nearing his later years, he learned Italian, visits Italy reguarly and would now describe himself as Scottish and Italian. Raises his own kids as Scottish / Italian.  Again under your strict rules he couldnt play for Italy.

Sorry but my 'strict rules'?

Where exactly have I created rules?

I am merely dealing in the facts before me which says he was born, raised, schooled and brought up in England. And he has chosen to represent England - not held at gunpoint and forced into playing for them. It is by his own choice.

He captains England at junior levels so he must appear pretty damned committed to get that accolade.

This sudden interest in him came from a report in the Daily Record where he says his dad seems to want him to play for Portugal whilst (using the Daily Record's words) his mother more wants me to play for Scotland over anyone. Right so I'd imagine his mum has been bending his ear for a few years now as it would make no sense to just start getting vocal now yet he still chose England and has been representing them for around five years now so even under pressure from his mum he still has remained loyal to England. That says a lot to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Sorry but 'may' want to play for England? He was asked and IS playing for England. And that is the natural progression you'd expect from someone born there, raised there, schooled there, built a chain of friendships and memories there and now representing England. Not one crumb of clues to suggest he has even given Scotland a second thought. I'd sooner respect his choice of representing the country he has lived his whole life in as should be the way. And to think (for any reason at all) he should suddenly have thoughts about playing for us are fanciful bordering on the ridiculous.

I am offering my opinion on the many clues laid before us:

1. Born in England

2. Raised in England

3. Schooled in England

4. Represented England at several levels already.

I'd say he's made his decision following his heart. Looking at the clues I'd say he only feels affinity to England and that is how it should be given how his life has panned out.

 

Reading this, it's a no from me. He clearly is Engerlish and has had no interest in playing for Scotland until now. Fuck him !! Give a good wee Scottish lad who would bleed for us and run through a brick wall for the dark blue a chance...... 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share




×
×
  • Create New...