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1 hour ago, Orraloon said:

 

Ok, I now realise that you meant to say "vaccine passports" don't provide any benefit, which makes more sense. I think they provide a small benefit but agree not a huge benefit. But lots of different measures provide other small benefits. It's when all these small things are combined that it's hoped a bigger benefit emerges. Mony a mickle maks a muckle.

Folk will argue about which measures are best, based on their personal preferences. Passports hardly affect me at all so I have no problem with them. But that's just me personally.

Also, it's no skin off my nose either. I'm vaccinated and have a passport. The only inconvenience is the risk that I forget it or lose it (I'm a paper man you see). 

But I had it for the Israel game and I've got it for the Ayr game tonight. The reality is we'll be jumping about a packed pub or terrace before, during and after the game with no social distancing or masks. A piece of paper isn't making that any safer - not really. Some people, stupidly, will be lulled into the security that it does. 

I don't fancy the stewards chances of keeping anybody out the ground without a passport either. 

But yeah if you are vaccinated and not a technophobe then it's not a particular drama. It's just a waste of time/money and not very nice to exclude people from society for very little benefit in my opinion

Edited by Morrisandmoo
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13 minutes ago, Morrisandmoo said:

It's not just nightclubs it applies to and not just a specific age range. It also includes adult entertainment venues for example, which is attended mostly by dirty old men :) And football grounfs and concerts - that are probably quite close to average demographics. 

Also the point you raise reduces the potential benefit of the passport even further. In that it's mostly older people that die from Covid. If they are already vaccinated (which they are) and it's only youngsters left the benefit becomes more indirect and remote. 

I am confident in saying, regardless of the reason, that the benefits will be immeasurably small. 

Do you think the benefits of passports are going to be big? Do you think we'll have significantly better health outcomes than England that will be attributable to passports?

Young people who are less likely to die from COVID are however more likely if unvaccinated to pick it up and then pass it on to older people who may die and that in a nutshell is the whole point. 
 

I don’t think we’re more than a couple of weeks from a similar scheme being introduced in England. 

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4 minutes ago, aaid said:

Young people who are less likely to die from COVID are however more likely if unvaccinated to pick it up and then pass it on to older people who may die and that in a nutshell is the whole point. 
 

I don’t think we’re more than a couple of weeks from a similar scheme being introduced in England. 

That's what I meant by indirect or remote. I understand the "point". It's stupid like i said. The cost v benefit analysis doesn't stack up in my opinion. 

Regardless of what England do, do you honestly think the benefits from the vaccine passport will be large? Or even meanigful?

Edited by Morrisandmoo
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1 hour ago, phart said:

I was just saying that almost all vaccines going forward "coerced" by the passport won't be AZ so the 10 week waning is a bit apples and oranges, if what's the point of getting it when you shed like the unvaccinated anyway is a reason not to get the vaccine.

Who is "they" if you mean the government I haven't listened to anyone in government about anything to do with the pandemic.

My understanding is a study called cov-boost done by southampton university was financed and the results came in early september and they trialed 7 different vaccines for the booster programme. There was varying degrees of data available for each one and then JCVI picked Pfizier and half dose moderna due to there being more info and the separate studies showing a rather large heterlogous affect when mixing and matching vaccines.

I'd hazard a guess and say neither of us are particularly reflective of society in how we get information :)  - the Javid announcement I heard a few days back is the first time I'd listened to anything from either government probably in months or purposefully seen evening news.  

The SG's response vs WM will be a case study on the subject for years because NS, whether like or dislike, was at least a more consistent message that left less room for speculation.  WM filled their space though with various talking heads and arguably wanted to confuse the picture filling the void with their own bolliocks so everything became white noise. 

What I was getting at is the less clear and concise the government are on communicating the reason for dropping AZ from the booster programme then the larger vacuum it leaves available to fill up with bollocks.  

  

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1 hour ago, Morrisandmoo said:

That's what I meant by indirect or remote. I understand the "point". It's stupid like i said. The cost v benefit analysis doesn't stack up in my opinion. 

Regardless of what England do, do you honestly think the benefits from the vaccine passport will be large? Or even meanigful?

In and of itself, ie, in restricting close contact between unvaccinated people in higher risk environments, I'd expect there to be some impact but it'll be marginal.

Indirectly in acting as a lever to push up vaccinations in demographics that have been more resistant so far I expect it to have a greater impact.

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On 10/26/2021 at 2:58 PM, ThistleWhistle said:

I'd hazard a guess and say neither of us are particularly reflective of society in how we get information :)  - the Javid announcement I heard a few days back is the first time I'd listened to anything from either government probably in months or purposefully seen evening news.  

The SG's response vs WM will be a case study on the subject for years because NS, whether like or dislike, was at least a more consistent message that left less room for speculation.  WM filled their space though with various talking heads and arguably wanted to confuse the picture filling the void with their own bolliocks so everything became white noise. 

What I was getting at is the less clear and concise the government are on communicating the reason for dropping AZ from the booster programme then the larger vacuum it leaves available to fill up with bollocks.  

  

 

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Makes a bit of a mockery of these passports.

Waterford city district has State’s highest rate of Covid-19 infections

County also has highest rate of vaccination take-up in the Republic

 Waterford city has one of the Ireland’s highest rates of vaccination against Covid-19, but one of its electoral areas has emerged as the place with the highest rate of Covid-19 infection in the State.

The city’s south electoral area has a 14-day incidence rate of 1,486 cases per 100,000 of the population, three times the national average which stands at 493 infections per 100,000 people.

The adjacent electoral area of Tramore-Waterford City West has a 14-day rate of 1,121 per 100,000, according to the latest weekly figures published by the Health Service Executive’s Health Protection Surveillance Centre.

Waterford has the highest rate of vaccination in the country with 99.7 per cent of adults over the age of 18 (as registered in the last census) fully vaccinated. The county has gone from having one of the lowest rates of Covid-19 infection in Ireland to one of the highest.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/waterford-city-district-has-state-s-highest-rate-of-covid-19-infections-1.4707344

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On 10/31/2021 at 8:50 PM, phart said:

 

I’d be interested to see what happened in October as it would seem a bit strange cutting the graph off at September 30 when they’ve been measuring it weekly. 

 

It’s pretty obvious the booster has worked but the graph would seem to suggest they’re quite a way off of where they were July 5th at the two dose stage and given the trajectory at 30th September it would be difficult to assume it got there by end of October.  A reason for this would appear to be a section of the public over there have become reluctant to take it – the latest information I could find was that as of late September 3.2m Israelis had been triple vaxxed in comparison to 4.7m who had been double.  To speed up the uptake they then changed the green pass to require the third dose or a recent negative test so two doses is obsolete:

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/over-1-million-israelis-who-didnt-get-3rd-dose-to-lose-green-pass-on-sunday/

 

  It helps illustrate the point I was making earlier really in that if boosters are to succeed the efficacy of the vaccine itself becomes secondary to the population’s trust in it.   He himself states we’re learning on the job and there were many unknowns when it launched given the time pressures understandably but are in a better position now around reviewing what works, what doesn’t and how best to form strategies on how to proceed.  It’s how the politicians then put these into operation, and communicate their reasoning, that will determine the success.  The sluggish booster numbers thus far and only 1 in 6 school kids down south having theirs prior to half term may point to this being as difficult a sell, possibly more so, than Israel experienced although how much difficulty of access is contributing is still to play out too.   

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2 hours ago, ThistleWhistle said:

I’d be interested to see what happened in October as it would seem a bit strange cutting the graph off at September 30 when they’ve been measuring it weekly. 

 

 

First line of the method in the paper.

Using data from Clalit Health Services, which provides mandatory health-care coverage for over half of the Israeli population, individuals receiving a third vaccine dose between July 30, 2020, and Sept 23, 2021.

 

Edited by phart
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Also I imagine July and October aren't same conditions will be many confounding variables which will be different, behaviour, weather, prevalence etc.

Yeah the vaccine will only work in those that take it.

Indeed if the politicians were as effective as the immunologists et al, we'd be in a better place.

 

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23 hours ago, phart said:

First line of the method in the paper.

Using data from Clalit Health Services, which provides mandatory health-care coverage for over half of the Israeli population, individuals receiving a third vaccine dose between July 30, 2020, and Sept 23, 2021.

 

more indepth info about the actual study.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/third-dose-prevents-infection/

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That didn't take long... Covid: Scottish vaccine passport scheme could be expanded - BBC News

Meanwhile Scottish Lib Dem leader Alex Cole-Hamilton said there was "no evidence base" for the use of vaccine passports, adding: "They will not save Christmas."

That is correct Alex, they will not save Christmas, or do any good at all for that matter - well assessed. They will, however, disproportionately (and increasingly) keep black and poor people excluded from Scottish society. It is a very bad thing the Scottish Government are doing. 

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53 minutes ago, Morrisandmoo said:

That didn't take long... Covid: Scottish vaccine passport scheme could be expanded - BBC News

Meanwhile Scottish Lib Dem leader Alex Cole-Hamilton said there was "no evidence base" for the use of vaccine passports, adding: "They will not save Christmas."

That is correct Alex, they will not save Christmas, or do any good at all for that matter - well assessed. They will, however, disproportionately (and increasingly) keep black and poor people excluded from Scottish society. It is a very bad thing the Scottish Government are doing. 

It won't if they go and get the vaccine which is freely available to everyone which is the entire point.

To be fair I don't particularly feel strongly about them but there is no barrier to people getting vaccinating other than choice.

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13 hours ago, Lamia said:

It won't if they go and get the vaccine which is freely available to everyone which is the entire point.

To be fair I don't particularly feel strongly about them but there is no barrier to people getting vaccinating other than choice.

Correct.  I can't see why so many people are against having a vaccination that could save their life and possibly save other people's lives.  Many years ago I had to have a yellow fever jag to allow me to work in Ghana, and I think i also got a jag for something to work in Trinidad.  Nobody moaned about that requirement then - I think some of the conspiracy theories on the internet are maybe roping in the gullible.  Do these people refuse blood transfusions or any other particular forms of medical treatment?

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8 hours ago, Alibi said:

Correct.  I can't see why so many people are against having a vaccination that could save their life and possibly save other people's lives.  Many years ago I had to have a yellow fever jag to allow me to work in Ghana, and I think i also got a jag for something to work in Trinidad.  Nobody moaned about that requirement then - I think some of the conspiracy theories on the internet are maybe roping in the gullible.  Do these people refuse blood transfusions or any other particular forms of medical treatment?

You’re comparing something that’s fairly new with other jags and blood transfusions that have long established. There is no long term data into potential health implications so we are essentially just trusting in the science based on short term study. 
 

I say that as someone who is double vax’d but I think it’s important to recognise people’s concerns and choice.  On the flip side, it’s the governments job to push vaccination as much as possible but there is a need for balance and fairness. Also agree that conspiracy theories are impacting as well as people’s natural reluctance. 

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On 11/9/2021 at 8:08 PM, Lamia said:

It won't if they go and get the vaccine which is freely available to everyone which is the entire point.

To be fair I don't particularly feel strongly about them but there is no barrier to people getting vaccinating other than choice.

Of course, but that's not relevant to the point I am making. 

Its an ineffective and discriminatory measure, that will do no good and disproportionately excludes poor and black people from our society.  

People can almost always choose to comply with government policies, but that doesn't really speak to whether those policies are good or not. Or whether they have a positive or negative effect on our society. 

You can criticise the poor for their stupidity in not getting vaccinated. I will criticise the government for ineffective and discriminatory policy making. 

Edited by Morrisandmoo
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11 hours ago, Alibi said:

Correct.  I can't see why so many people are against having a vaccination that could save their life and possibly save other people's lives.  Many years ago I had to have a yellow fever jag to allow me to work in Ghana, and I think i also got a jag for something to work in Trinidad.  Nobody moaned about that requirement then - I think some of the conspiracy theories on the internet are maybe roping in the gullible.  Do these people refuse blood transfusions or any other particular forms of medical treatment?

There aren't so many people in the UK against getting vaccinated.

There are good studies into vaccine hesitancy, if you need to better understand why a minority think that way (linked earlier). 

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In Scotland it's about 10% of eligible people that have chosen not to get vaccinated. That's slowly coming down.

Some portion will have been infected prior as well.

The figure will show if this policy is effective or not. I suspect it won't be.

Although other countries want folk to have the passports so if you're travelling sort of compulsory anyway.

Edited by phart
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2 hours ago, Lamia said:

No it isn't

 

That is a matter of opinion.

A matter of fact is that the result of this policy is the disproportionate exclusion of black and poor people from Scottish society. 

Would you accept that is not a desirable outcome of a policy and should be viewed negatively?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Morrisandmoo said:

That is a matter of opinion.

A matter of fact is that the result of this policy is the disproportionate exclusion of black and poor people from Scottish society. 

Would you accept that is not a desirable outcome of a policy and should be viewed negatively?

 

 

Poor people and black people have equal access to the vaccine so it is not discriminatory. 

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8 hours ago, Lamia said:

Poor people and black people have equal access to the vaccine so it is not discriminatory. 

I accepted that was a matter of opinion. Personally I am interested in the actual effect of a policy, rather than just asking whether the minority group can comply. I would also challenge whether there truly is equal access when you consider the matter for long enough. But there is not much point going down the rabbit holes of opinion. People are going to believe whatever they are going to believe.

You've avoided addressing the matter of fact though. And whether you think the resulting exclusion of poor and black people is good, bad or indifferent. For me, that is a very negative outcome (regardless of whether you think it's discriminatory or not) that should be balanced by sufficient positive outcomes from the policy. 

I do appreciate that some folk think - they can just do what they are told and get a vaccine passport, like the rest of us, so fuck them. But for me that is irrelevant, the government need to demonstrate that their actions are making society better, not worse. In this case they are making it worse and should stop.

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It's even more complicated than that, you then have to factor in the negative effect of not getting vaccinated has on society, then you have a problem where you can frame it should folk, the immunosuppressed for instance, have to tolerate higher risks when going to concerts etc.

That's why I try and simplify it to what's the primary goal they want if it is just to increase vaccination rates then I doubt it will do that by a significant amount.

I suspect less and less people are feeling a part of society at the moment as well especially the poor and minority groups so they're less willing to do "their bit" for a society that seems to have forgotten them.

Feels weird to talk about the "poor" since i'm poor as fuck myself.

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It is an interesting angle especially in the US where for many years the democrats have been saying requiring ID to vote is 'racist' as black people don't know what an ID is or how to get them (not something I buy into). So it is going to be interesting now that they will need a 'passport' to go into a shop or hold down their jobs... 

I am curious as to what these passports are meant to achieve. OK so now you are sitting in the pub with only vaccinated people, vaccinated people who can catch covid and pass it on same as any unvaccinated person. So what exactly is the official logic here, what is it supposed to achieve?

Obviously it looks like more like a blackmail type operation where they hold all your freedoms at ransom to force you to be injected with essentially experimental drugs. Forcing kids to be injected when they are in no danger from the virus... That especially is very wrong.

It is getting sinister, especially the way they are forcing on kids, that is disturbing me. Why the fuck are they doing that.

Edited by thplinth
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In the UK no one is forcing it on kids.

This is why folk are probably calling you paranoid cause you're getting disturbed by things that aren't actually happening.

"Paranoia is the feeling that you're being threatened in some way, such as people watching you or acting against you, even though there's no proof that it's true."

kids get 3 doses of 6 separate vaccines, if they wish, before they are 1 over here. the 6 in 1 vaccine.

Also they can't catch it in the same way. Although AZ after 14 weeks transmision is almost the same once you have it, you're still protected from catching it in the first place. This is covered in this thread as well. Myself and thistlewhistle discussed the study showing it.

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