TDYER63 Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 6 minutes ago, Morrisandmoo said: The problem is first of all is that the benefit (if we define this as reduced harm) is going to be marginal because we already have a very high % of the population vaccinated, with the remainder largely being young and healthy. This is in contrast to other countries like France when they introduced a similar scheme. We should be careful of any government measure which costs money, but is only capable of delivering a marginal benefit - because that money could be better invested in other measures with higher ROIs. For example, we could reduce waiting lists or improve cancer services. Whatever. So it's a risky investment straight away. In addition to being weak on potential benefits, the societal and moral costs are (in my opinion) very high. The archetypal person who remains unvaccinated will be young, vulnerable, black and poor. These are the very people who I want us to be actively trying to include in our society more - not excluding further. It's a high cost. One that I/we might be prepared to accept, with sufficient offsetting benefits (but see issue above re only marginal benefits being possible). I don't agree with the justification that these people have a choice - therefore fuck them. Who are these people and what brings them to the irrational choice not to get vaccinated. Put yourself in their shoes. Is their choice anything more than expression of all of their experiences and environment? I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of free will, but I do always come back to Irvine Welsh's exploration of where choice ends and begins in Trainspotting or Fitzgerald's snobbish reminder that "a sense of the fundamental decencies is parceled out unequally at birth". Those cunts do a much better job at addressing this than me. Either way, I think the burden is still on us to prove that the harm we cause to non-conforming minorities, in the punitive measures we take against them, are proportionate. We can't just excuse ourselves from this assessment because they have a "choice" to conform. Anyway, getting back to the point - it is my opinion that it is a very shitey thing we are doing to some of the most vulnerable people in our society and alas it will do no fucking good (not really). A bit dramatic. Sorry. I take all your points and dont think you are being dramatic, I find you explain yourself well. My understanding is that vaccine passports will be a short term measure and has been implemented due to the high number of covid cases we still have in this country. And also an encouragement for younger people to get vaccinated. I am not intending to say ‘fuck them they have a choice’ I am genuinely not sure why people are choosing not to have it as I can see absolutely no evidence to suggest this is significantly dangerous. We trust medical people all the time . I don’t understand your argument about it being young/vulnerable/black and poor people who are likely to be unvaccinated. Surely this vaccine is open to everyone , especially the vulnerable ? I dont work in social care or know enough to understand what prevents poor, black and vulnerable people obtaining vaccinations. I realise some people may not be registered with a GP and that would perhaps prevent vaccinations. But there surely cannot be anyone in the western world that doesn’t know about Covid . I dont completely trust any government but I genuinely do not think the SG would be introducing something that discriminates against that section of society on a serious issue like the vaccination programme . Perhaps I am being too naive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelhumper Posted September 12, 2021 Author Share Posted September 12, 2021 I think they'll be very short term. If they even go ahead at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrisandmoo Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 2 hours ago, TDYER63 said: I take all your points and dont think you are being dramatic, I find you explain yourself well. My understanding is that vaccine passports will be a short term measure and has been implemented due to the high number of covid cases we still have in this country. And also an encouragement for younger people to get vaccinated. I am not intending to say ‘fuck them they have a choice’ I am genuinely not sure why people are choosing not to have it as I can see absolutely no evidence to suggest this is significantly dangerous. We trust medical people all the time . I don’t understand your argument about it being young/vulnerable/black and poor people who are likely to be unvaccinated. Surely this vaccine is open to everyone , especially the vulnerable ? I dont work in social care or know enough to understand what prevents poor, black and vulnerable people obtaining vaccinations. I realise some people may not be registered with a GP and that would perhaps prevent vaccinations. But there surely cannot be anyone in the western world that doesn’t know about Covid . I dont completely trust any government but I genuinely do not think the SG would be introducing something that discriminates against that section of society on a serious issue like the vaccination programme . Perhaps I am being too naive. The policy is well intentioned - increase vaccination rates thereby reducing hospitalisations and death. But the road to hell is paved with good intentions. It's the actual effect of the policy that I'm concerned about (not the intent). Both the fact that (1) it is not possible (anymore) to increase vaccinations that much more and achieve a materiel benefit (2) the actual effect is discriminatory. It's just a fact that it's young, poor and black people that are most likely to be most strongly vaccine hesitant. Therefore those are the ones we'll further exclude from society as a result of this policy (regardless of intent). See here for example Black, young and poor people in UK most likely to report Covid vaccine hesitancy | Vaccines and immunisation | The Guardian and here Covid-19 vaccine hesitancy among ethnic minority groups | The BMJ and you can google lots of other official government stats/insights. In terms of the underlying cause of those groups not getting vaccinated. I imagine it's the same underlying cause that leads to those groups having poor health and life outcomes generally. They tend to get a bad start in life and not enough help. The vaccine passport is actually a great example of why those groups get the outcomes they get. Instead of helping them - we're banning them from parts of society for not doing what we tell them There is no rationale reason not to get vaccinated (above a certain age anyway). Some (few) folks heads have unfortunately been filled full of shite and others are probably disinterested in marginal health outcomes generally. If you live your life in real poverty and violence. How much are you worried about Covid? Have the Govenrment said it will be short term? I would think that would undermine their intention, if they have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDYER63 Posted September 13, 2021 Share Posted September 13, 2021 13 hours ago, Morrisandmoo said: The policy is well intentioned - increase vaccination rates thereby reducing hospitalisations and death. But the road to hell is paved with good intentions. It's the actual effect of the policy that I'm concerned about (not the intent). Both the fact that (1) it is not possible (anymore) to increase vaccinations that much more and achieve a materiel benefit (2) the actual effect is discriminatory. It's just a fact that it's young, poor and black people that are most likely to be most strongly vaccine hesitant. Therefore those are the ones we'll further exclude from society as a result of this policy (regardless of intent). See here for example Black, young and poor people in UK most likely to report Covid vaccine hesitancy | Vaccines and immunisation | The Guardian and here Covid-19 vaccine hesitancy among ethnic minority groups | The BMJ and you can google lots of other official government stats/insights. In terms of the underlying cause of those groups not getting vaccinated. I imagine it's the same underlying cause that leads to those groups having poor health and life outcomes generally. They tend to get a bad start in life and not enough help. The vaccine passport is actually a great example of why those groups get the outcomes they get. Instead of helping them - we're banning them from parts of society for not doing what we tell them There is no rationale reason not to get vaccinated (above a certain age anyway). Some (few) folks heads have unfortunately been filled full of shite and others are probably disinterested in marginal health outcomes generally. If you live your life in real poverty and violence. How much are you worried about Covid? Have the Govenrment said it will be short term? I would think that would undermine their intention, if they have. Thanks, I found the BMJ link of particular interest and they make some good recommendations on how to overcome the hesitancy. I can definitely understand the reluctance amongst ethnic groups due to the lack of trust they have in the authorities. I can also see why lack of trust and/or education would create hesitancy in the poor. The sad irony is that very poor people are probably unlikely to be requiring vaccine passports due to the cost of attending large scale events. However that is part of a far greater problem in this country and to simply assume poor people will not attend large functions is yet another discrimination. Ideally , education about the vaccine would be a fairer way to increase the numbers taking it, but I would imagine that with positive cases running so high, a faster, more dramatic approach is being adopted. I am certain I read that the need for vaccine passports would be getting reviewed regularly . Is it possible the SG are perhaps hoping the threat of needing the passport will encourage more young people to get the vaccine and therefore the need for it will be short lived ? I do understand now why certain elements of society are reluctant to take the vaccine and can see why you are against passports, that said i cant help but think that a large proportion of young people just dont think they are at any risk from Covid and cant be bothered getting it. Others are being suckered by the conspiracy theorists , like you say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted September 13, 2021 Share Posted September 13, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamond Scot Posted September 13, 2021 Share Posted September 13, 2021 Im not sure how much education would help the sections that dont get the vaccine. If the main reason for not getting it is mistrust of authority then are they likely to accept any education that comes from the same authority? Part of a govs job is to bring in policys to protect society. Vaccine passports are not discriminatory, they would only be so if they were brought in when the vaccine was only available to certain people. If you choose not to get the vaccine then you are making an informed decision. The gov are fully entitled to say that you cant attend certain events on health and safety reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted September 13, 2021 Share Posted September 13, 2021 I've not been convinced of the efficacy of vaccine passports. For instance I got yellow fever vaccine almost 2 years ago now and i'd just not be allowed into East Africa without it. Barring some fraud which would need at least 3 people to be complicit it is very effective. They need to state clearly what the reasons are for them and what results they hope to achieve. Then state how bringing this in would achieve those results. We are at half peak levels now in the NHS with winter looming. ICU filling up with unvaccinated youngsters in proportions hitherto unseen so that has to be mitigated at some point I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDYER63 Posted September 13, 2021 Share Posted September 13, 2021 5 hours ago, Diamond Scot said: Im not sure how much education would help the sections that dont get the vaccine. If the main reason for not getting it is mistrust of authority then are they likely to accept any education that comes from the same authority? Part of a govs job is to bring in policys to protect society. Vaccine passports are not discriminatory, they would only be so if they were brought in when the vaccine was only available to certain people. If you choose not to get the vaccine then you are making an informed decision. The gov are fully entitled to say that you cant attend certain events on health and safety reasons. These were suggestions from the BMJ on how to win trust, but as I said before, this type of education and co-ordination would take time to build and at the moment GP’s in particular are under too much pressure. There are however things that could be done to help people if transport to vaccination centres is the issue. Political parties are happy to bang on people’s door on election day and offer transport to voters to get them to the polling station when they are looking for their vote. Building trust is key Trust could be established by funding and supporting community and primary care led vaccination efforts, as GPs are likely to be more trusted3 by the communities they serve because of relationships built over time. Engaging community groups, champions, and faith leaders, and resourcing targeted, culturally competent interventions would also help reduce vaccine hesitancy.15 For example, assuaging doubts regarding the religious acceptability of vaccines will require consistent non-stigmatising messages in targeted populations, co-designed, shared, and endorsed by people within the community, including health professionals and faith leaders.916 Prioritising vulnerable members of minority communities, in particular healthcare workers, for covid-19 vaccination and recognising their roles as trusted sources of information could reduce the perceptions of risk of covid-19 vaccines among people from ethnic minorities. Such communications can be made more effective by providing educational resources in multiple languages.17 Vaccination could be made more convenient and accessible through measures such as providing transport, particularly for people who work in lower paid public facing roles,17 and using places of worship as vaccination sites.18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDYER63 Posted September 13, 2021 Share Posted September 13, 2021 Might just be spot checks at some events ….. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58542797.amp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted September 13, 2021 Share Posted September 13, 2021 My indecision is final. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted September 13, 2021 Share Posted September 13, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamia Posted September 14, 2021 Share Posted September 14, 2021 On 9/13/2021 at 11:33 AM, phart said: I had to contend with someone who was saying Covid is the same as the common cold never mind the flu 🙄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelhumper Posted September 14, 2021 Author Share Posted September 14, 2021 On 9/13/2021 at 5:21 PM, aaid said: My indecision is final. On 9/13/2021 at 5:12 PM, TDYER63 said: Might just be spot checks at some events ….. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58542797.amp SFA have released a statement tonight. SG admitting they havent given anywhere near enough information for clubs (and other venues) to even start planning how yo implement this. Spot checks is a fairly worthless exerciser if you get the knock back you'd just try another turnstile. Just over 2 weeks to go and nobody has a clue how this wlll work at large venues. My guess is that it'll be given lip service and largely ignored. Not even sure the SG know how to or wand ri implement it either. Logisital nightmare. They'll be hoping it gets more younger folk vaccinated in coming weeks then they'll backtrack. That's my guess. Zero chance 50k at hampden next month will be getting checked for proof of vaccine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted September 14, 2021 Share Posted September 14, 2021 Cases are really starting to drop now as well. Might have hit some sort of unseen threshold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamia Posted September 15, 2021 Share Posted September 15, 2021 There have been so many events and venues that have used vaccine certification voluntarily with no issues and if I recall correctly many of the venues now complaining were asking for these to try to avoid closure but now everyone is moaning and claiming it is unworkable when it is working in other countries perfectly well. 🙄 This is just another example and reason why this country has done so m much worse that most others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty CTA Posted September 15, 2021 Share Posted September 15, 2021 17 hours ago, phart said: Cases are really starting to drop now as well. Might have hit some sort of unseen threshold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelhumper Posted September 15, 2021 Author Share Posted September 15, 2021 4 hours ago, Lamia said: There have been so many events and venues that have used vaccine certification voluntarily with no issues and if I recall correctly many of the venues now complaining were asking for these to try to avoid closure but now everyone is moaning and claiming it is unworkable when it is working in other countries perfectly well. 🙄 This is just another example and reason why this country has done so m much worse that most others. Other countries actually know how to implement it. Ours is two weeks away from implementation and the government cant provide the basics to the industries involved. In it's current form its unworkable as the government hasn't provided the tools yo make it workable. I'd say one of the main reasons Scotland (and the UK) have done so badly is the inept standard of government. Not many governments in Europe have flip flopped on vaccine passports the way Scotland and England have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamia Posted September 15, 2021 Share Posted September 15, 2021 46 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said: Other countries actually know how to implement it. Ours is two weeks away from implementation and the government cant provide the basics to the industries involved. In it's current form its unworkable as the government hasn't provided the tools yo make it workable. I'd say one of the main reasons Scotland (and the UK) have done so badly is the inept standard of government. Not many governments in Europe have flip flopped on vaccine passports the way Scotland and England have. Many of the complaints I have seen is an objection in principle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDYER63 Posted September 15, 2021 Share Posted September 15, 2021 23 minutes ago, Lamia said: Many of the complaints I have seen is an objection in principle I imagine the idea of vaccine passports was begrudgingly accepted by businesses when they were being considered as the only way to potentially reopen , but now England have done a Uturn on them they see it as an opportunity to moan as they cannot be bothered with the hassle . It does not help though that the SG are producing half baked plans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamia Posted September 15, 2021 Share Posted September 15, 2021 46 minutes ago, TDYER63 said: It does not help though that the SG are producing half baked plans. There isn't really much excuse given how events and places have managed to do it themselves without any Government guidance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romanticscot Posted September 15, 2021 Share Posted September 15, 2021 I am reading this board, and quite frankly I am shocked at a broad consensus of many on here. To say that people must be coerced into a medical intervention quite frankly is a betrayal of the spirit of Scotland. To be held at a proverbial gunpoint, by a Government who is in lock step with others to curtail your freedom, redefine terms such as a herd immunity, pandemic and in the small print even rig the game so you read terms like vaccinated and think you understand what they mean - when in actual fact your being lied to, to accept what is widely proven as not fit for purpose mechanism to "diagnose" Covid and then present that as fact to cause fear is disgusting. Your government does not care about you, in actual fact their actions prove they want you, your grandparents your children removed from the face of the earth. People of Scotland have some courage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave78 Posted September 15, 2021 Share Posted September 15, 2021 17 minutes ago, romanticscot said: I am reading this board, and quite frankly I am shocked at a broad consensus of many on here. To say that people must be coerced into a medical intervention quite frankly is a betrayal of the spirit of Scotland. To be held at a proverbial gunpoint, by a Government who is in lock step with others to curtail your freedom, redefine terms such as a herd immunity, pandemic and in the small print even rig the game so you read terms like vaccinated and think you understand what they mean - when in actual fact your being lied to, to accept what is widely proven as not fit for purpose mechanism to "diagnose" Covid and then present that as fact to cause fear is disgusting. Your government does not care about you, in actual fact their actions prove they want you, your grandparents your children removed from the face of the earth. People of Scotland have some courage. I re-read this in your Texan accent, and then it made much more sense 😜 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted September 15, 2021 Share Posted September 15, 2021 So the government wants everyone dead and the mechanism they use to do this is medical intervention. Like most of the incoherent theories on here i'm reminded of this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romanticscot Posted September 15, 2021 Share Posted September 15, 2021 34 minutes ago, phart said: So the government wants everyone dead and the mechanism they use to do this is medical intervention. Like most of the incoherent theories on here i'm reminded of this Quite willing to post content to back up what I said, my question to you before I go get it is will you listen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted September 15, 2021 Share Posted September 15, 2021 back up what? The only thing i got from that was the government wants everyone dead. Plus the government redefined meaning of herd immunity, and then a generalisation about people don't know what vaccination means. The former is a poorly thought out plan by the "government" as everyone being dead dead causes a lot of problems for the "government" and other two hardly existential threats and i'm happy to let immunologists define vaccination for me as opposed to randoms on the TAMB. As i said it's vague as fuck, no names, no description of plans, it's all tell no show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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