Denmark v Scotland - match thread

[Guest Scot1]

8 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

Our team was insipid and tentative.  Just don’t have enough belief as they realise that they are not great.  We need swagger….  A bremner, souness or dare via say it, Scott brown type in the middle of the park.   Mcgregor reminds me of a poor mans jim bett,  all very tidy but doesn’t hurt a team.  

I agree, and the only player I know that could potentially add some steel / swagger to the midfield is Lewis Ferguson, and maybe Tierney, although as we all know it’s not his natural position.

[thesaint]

First half was an absolute abomination.Clarke has learned absolutely nothing from the euros.It's almost too hideous to contimplate,but he will still do the same against Austria.He seems totally incapable or unwilling to change.

[Diamond Scot]

A few things ive noticed lately and confirmed again tonight.

1) 3 CBs dont work if the wider ones arent comfortable on the ball. Ie Tierney and McTom. Every single time they had it in the first half it worked its way back to Gordon. The way around the high press is to pass through it. Tierney and McTom can do that. Others cant so if they arent playing then id go with a 4.

2) We need to work on set pieces, expecially through ins. For us we either throw it all the way back to the defence or up the line for a flick on like under 10s football. Against us we stand off and allow easy possesion. We need to man mark and make teams earn the ball. 

3) If playing 532 (or 5311) we need at least 3 attacking players or the 2 further forward get so isolated. This means only having 1 defence such as McGreggor, Jack or McLean and 1 other such as Gilmour. With 5 defenders we dont need 3 sitting in front.

4) Our CBs need to be more switched on to runners. Teams tend to play 1 up top. Meaning at any given time we have 2 CBs marking space. They need to be alive to movement beyond our midfield and get tight before the player receives the ball. Its far too easy for teams to get possession 25 yards from our goal.

5) We need to pick a style that suits us. For me thats high tempo, in your face, hunting as a pack. The best teams will destroy us but everybody else will hate it and it suits our upbringing and mindset. Thats why guys like Christie and McGinn do well for us.  We cant play continental football, we should stop trying to. Know your strengths.

[tjm007]

I predict we will finish 4th in this group.

which should be a sacking offence.

[scotlad]

3 hours ago, Third Lanark said:

And now the real shocker - Israel 2 up and both scored by Zahravi. We have no one in his class.

That's the real issue, right there. 

Bosnia went to France tonight and drew thanks to a goal from Dzeko.  Norway drew with the Netherlands, with Haaland giving them the lead.  If you've players of that calibre in your team you've always a chance.

We, on the other hand, have a centre forward from QPR who looked tonight like he couldn't trap a bag of cement.

It doesn't matter how many Premiership players you have, if none of them are natural goalscorers you're going to struggle against good sides. Sadly, I don't see much evidence of a Scottish Dzeko, Haaland or Zahravi emerging any time soon.

2 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

I can't think of a replacement right now but to say nobody would take it is OTT.

 

Derek McInnes or John Hughes or someone of that calibre would be interested but we're not going to attract a top manager, not with the kind of money on offer from the SFA.

In any case, who the manager is is a bit of a red herring. Denmark reached the semi-finals of the Euros this year led by a man whose only major honour to date is the Danish title, which he won nearly a decade ago. The team that beat them in that game were led by a man who achieved fuck all in club football other than getting Middlesbrough relegated. Clearly neither of them are managerial geniuses, but they're competent coaches who are able to take their teams forward because they have top quality players to pick from.

The real question should be why Denmark, a country with only a slightly larger population than Scotland's, is producing top quality players in every position and we're not. We should focus on addressing that rather than just changing coach every couple years and hoping whoever's in post at the time will sort everything out.

Edited September 1, 2021 by scotlad
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[bigfingers]

26 minutes ago, tjm007 said:

I predict we will finish 4th in this group.

which should be a sacking offence.

Would be a sorry state of affairs if the only teams we beat are Moldova and the Faroes. 

[scotlad]

2 hours ago, weekevie04 said:

Much improved second half, but give yourself a shake if you think that wasn't Denmark allowing us/sitting off us to rest up for the next two games. Still, there were some moments during that last 25-30 mins that can be put down as promising, but in truth, we are a poor team threatening to be average in short spells of a game.

TBH, I think Clarke has had a fair bit of luck as well both in getting us to the Euros by a lottery ; the ref certainly did us a favour tonight, we seemed to get a lot of the decisions.

Our attacking choices are horrible at this level. Lydon Dykes isn't the answer, he's nowhere near good enough to play at this level. Our attacking prose from corners is on par with the likes of Moldova! Absolutely terribly out of depth.

We cannot come back either. If we go, 1-0 against a top team, chances are the game is over, but t 2-0, it is! Even 1-0 down against a minnow, we might well win the game but we'll really struggle and it'll only be 2-1.

Then again, 2-0 isn't a bad result on the scheme of things. Denmark are waltzing this group. So in losses to Denmark we are +2 in GD against the Austrians, but that will count for nothing if we don't get at least a win on Saturday ; and a positive result in Austria.

Just watching the end of the Moldova game, and Austria are leading 1-0 yet still pushing on. You just know when we go there, if we are 2-1 up or so, we'll be hanging on by the skin of our teeth like we were against Israel, Cyprus away, and not attacking at all.

 

You could say he is rotten...

2 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

Have to agree with this now

We had plenty of experience on that park tonight. 4 of the back 5 play in the EPL, the midfield had one old firm and two EPL players and upfront we had two more EPL players.

Is it just Scotland who have shite EPL players or is it the manager can't get the best out of them? 

Aye, but come on, Cooper and Hanley are Championship players in all but name and show it nearly every time they play international football.

[mccaughey85]

1 hour ago, tjm007 said:

I predict we will finish 4th in this group.

which should be a sacking offence.

I think third is most probable which will keep clarke in his job. 

[mccaughey85]

48 minutes ago, scotlad said:

That's the real issue, right there. 

Bosnia went to France tonight and drew thanks to a goal from Dzeko.  Norway drew with the Netherlands, with Haaland giving them the lead.  If you've players of that calibre in your team you've always a chance.

We, on the other hand, have a centre forward from QPR who looked tonight like he couldn't trap a bag of cement.

It doesn't matter how many Premiership players you have, if none of them are natural goalscorers you're going to struggle against good sides. Sadly, I don't see much evidence of a Scottish Dzeko, Haaland or Zahravi emerging any time soon.

Derek McInnes or John Hughes or someone of that calibre would be interested but we're not going to attract a top manager, not with the kind of money on offer from the SFA.

In any case, who the manager is is a bit of a red herring. Denmark reached the semi-finals of the Euros this year led by a man whose only major honour to date is the Danish title, which he won nearly a decade ago. The team that beat them in that game were led by a man who achieved fuck all in club football other than getting Middlesbrough relegated. Clearly neither of them are managerial geniuses, but they're competent coaches who are able to take their teams forward because they have top quality players to pick from.

The real question should be why Denmark, a country with only a slightly larger population than Scotland's, is producing top quality players in every position and we're not. We should focus on addressing that rather than just changing coach every couple years and hoping whoever's in post at the time will sort everything out.

We have been producing a slightly better quality of player in the last few years so maybe that is a sign of improvement on that front. 

[ParisInAKilt]

Clarke needs to get to fuck for that starting line up. 

The deeper problems are clear and been discussed to death on here but any faith I had in Clarke being a competent international manager has gone. 

[vanderark14]

5 hours ago, scotlad said:

You could say he is rotten...

Aye, but come on, Cooper and Hanley are Championship players in all but name and show it nearly every time they play international football.

Something happens to those players when they play with Scotland, they play at a higher level every week and get picked every week. 

It's happens to all of them not just Hanley and Cooper 

[Toepoke]

6 hours ago, scotlad said:

 The real question should be why Denmark, a country with only a slightly larger population than Scotland's, is producing top quality players in every position and we're not. We should focus on addressing that rather than just changing coach every couple years and hoping whoever's in post at the time will sort everything out.

It's a good question. Danish domestic football isn't much stronger than ours but their squad is full of players from top clubs all across Europe. 

 

[ProudScot]

5 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Clarke needs to get to fuck for that starting line up. 

The deeper problems are clear and been discussed to death on here but any faith I had in Clarke being a competent international manager has gone. 

Yeah the faith has gone. He fluked it to the Euros and the credit from that has evaporated given how much he’s ballsed up this campaign. 

[duncan II]

8 hours ago, Malcolm said:

Mcgregor and McLean were not good enough.   Midfield four of jack, gilmour, Mctominay and Mcginn please

No thanks.

[vanderark14]

29 minutes ago, Toepoke said:

It's a good question. Danish domestic football isn't much stronger than ours but their squad is full of players from top clubs all across Europe. 

 

I'm no expert but I guess there is an appetite to produce good players and have a good youth setup.

In Scotland we talk a lot about youth but end up going back to B teams for bigger clubs because they hoover up the talent and don't play them.

[killiefaetheferry]

I'm making sweeping generalisations here, but...

Denmark has a very child-centred education system. No formal education until 6. Kids learn through play until then. Social welfare policies support a population in which both parents tend to work. It's low crime. 4% unemployment. People enjoy life, family and sport. Men are heavily involved in childcare. Nursery jobs are normal for a man. Teachers are respected. I suspect youth football concentrates on technique and enjoyment, as opposed to pressure on kids to be be wee hard men on the pitch in order to win, driven by moron hard men parents. I'm not feeling very positive about Scottish society right now, and I'm thinking the state of our national football is a microcosm of the state of our 'nation'.

[Malcolm]

43 minutes ago, killiefaetheferry said:

I'm making sweeping generalisations here, but...

Denmark has a very child-centred education system. No formal education until 6. Kids learn through play until then. Social welfare policies support a population in which both parents tend to work. It's low crime. 4% unemployment. People enjoy life, family and sport. Men are heavily involved in childcare. Nursery jobs are normal for a man. Teachers are respected. I suspect youth football concentrates on technique and enjoyment, as opposed to pressure on kids to be be wee hard men on the pitch in order to win, driven by moron hard men parents. I'm not feeling very positive about Scottish society right now, and I'm thinking the state of our national football is a microcosm of the state of our 'nation'.

It’s genetic… the Danes are big vikings of men whereas we are wee and scrawny…. According to strachan.

[Diamond Scot]

1 hour ago, killiefaetheferry said:

I'm making sweeping generalisations here, but...

Denmark has a very child-centred education system. No formal education until 6. Kids learn through play until then. Social welfare policies support a population in which both parents tend to work. It's low crime. 4% unemployment. People enjoy life, family and sport. Men are heavily involved in childcare. Nursery jobs are normal for a man. Teachers are respected. I suspect youth football concentrates on technique and enjoyment, as opposed to pressure on kids to be be wee hard men on the pitch in order to win, driven by moron hard men parents. I'm not feeling very positive about Scottish society right now, and I'm thinking the state of our national football is a microcosm of the state of our 'nation'.

Thats it exactly. The idea that we dont have talented footballers is wrong. The problem is that so often our talent is lost to other things at a young age or those who do "make it" arent mentally mature enough to become elite players.

There is a very long list of Scottish players who are just a reflection of our society. We rarely excel in any sport. Look at golf, we have millions of courses but at best we have 1 decent player. As a nation we dont have the drive to succeed in life and more often than not accept just doing better than the people we went to school with.

[ThistleWhistle]

I wasn’t expecting a great deal from last night as Denmark were going to be on the crest of a wave given the emotions of their summer – could see someone unexpected benefiting from the inevitable come down they’ll have at some point which might bite us on the arse.

 

What was most disappointing though is this summer we’d had what was essentially a glorified summer camp for a month of training they wouldn’t  usually get together but seem to have gone backwards rather than forwards particularly first half.  How if we’ve had that time together previously can we look so disjointed at defending set pieces and completely clueless at attacking ones?  The throw-ins were stuff you’d expect to see down the park!

 

Gap front to back continues to be massive and a midfield 3 of Kante, Kante and Kante would be collectively blowing out their arse trying to cover especially as everyone has worked out to double up down the flanks.  None of the defenders  were particularly comfortable on the ball so was always going to result in hoofing it or; passing it into a midfielder with their back to goal who then has to pass it backwards to get hoofed or; sub-contracting out the hoofing to the keeper.  It was a rinse repeat of the game after Serbia (Slovenia?) where we played three out and out centre halves but this time decided not to even bother with a lump to launch it at. 

 

A back three without cover in front of it too is like shooting fish in a barrel as teams can just play in front of them and have runners from deep making them look statuesque – Israel have done it the last 27 times we’ve played. 

 

When we went to 5 at the back Clarke came out and said he’d be pretty crap at coaching if he only had a Plan A.  However, since we seem to sticking to this fairly resolutely but getting progressively worse at it. 

[daviebee]

12 hours ago, Scot1 said:

Yes in the 2nd half when he was more advanced. He is still learning and still needs to improve his decision making, ie when to “hold” onto the ball and not immediately pass it. And he sometimes passes a teammate into “trouble”, he shouldn’t  be passing to a teammate who’s surrounded by the opposition and it’s going to lose the ball.

I think maybe the problem here is that he's on a totally different level to the others and he's expecting them to do the same as he can.  He doesn't mind getting the ball under pressure as he'll either make space for himself or release it immediately to a teammate who's free whereas the rest of them are like training ground dummies.

He passes quickly and then moves into space looking for a return.  Sort of like the Danish guys were doing all night.

[sandyb]

The two goals were horrible but did anyone expect us to take points from this game - no. Our main aim is to finish 2nd and compete for a play off place. The games against Austria and isreal are key. We are 5 years behind Denmark and thats only if the youth systems show any signs of success. Denmark cruised through the second half. Clarkes tactics were shite last night but that is because he is trying to put round peices in square holes.

[Mazda]

Awful defending for 1st goal

also

Why isn't Ramsay in as RB  , seems an obvious first choice.

 

[TDYER63]

10 hours ago, scotlad said:

 

The real question should be why Denmark, a country with only a slightly larger population than Scotland's, is producing top quality players in every position and we're not. We should focus on addressing that rather than just changing coach every couple years and hoping whoever's in post at the time will sort everything out.

 

3 hours ago, Toepoke said:

It's a good question. Danish domestic football isn't much stronger than ours but their squad is full of players from top clubs all across Europe. 

 

 

2 hours ago, killiefaetheferry said:

I'm making sweeping generalisations here, but...

Denmark has a very child-centred education system. No formal education until 6. Kids learn through play until then. Social welfare policies support a population in which both parents tend to work. It's low crime. 4% unemployment. People enjoy life, family and sport. Men are heavily involved in childcare. Nursery jobs are normal for a man. Teachers are respected. I suspect youth football concentrates on technique and enjoyment, as opposed to pressure on kids to be be wee hard men on the pitch in order to win, driven by moron hard men parents. I'm not feeling very positive about Scottish society right now, and I'm thinking the state of our national football is a microcosm of the state of our 'nation'.

Kumnio posted this in another thread just after the Euros . I found it interesting . 

https://thedandydons.com/what-does-danish-football-have-that-scottish-football-doesnt/

 

[gaz7]

2 hours ago, killiefaetheferry said:

I'm making sweeping generalisations here, but...

Denmark has a very child-centred education system. No formal education until 6. Kids learn through play until then. Social welfare policies support a population in which both parents tend to work. It's low crime. 4% unemployment. People enjoy life, family and sport. Men are heavily involved in childcare. Nursery jobs are normal for a man. Teachers are respected. I suspect youth football concentrates on technique and enjoyment, as opposed to pressure on kids to be be wee hard men on the pitch in order to win, driven by moron hard men parents. I'm not feeling very positive about Scottish society right now, and I'm thinking the state of our national football is a microcosm of the state of our 'nation'.

Yes generalisations but in my involvement in youth football last 10 years sadly it is true imo. Was down at blackpool few years ago and a danish team were there with some younger boys playing within their age group (u16s) and they passed the ball for fun they were fantastic and and very positive. They lost in semis to some English team full of giants but theres no doubt those boys loved the game for enjoyment but also a determination to win which was on their faces when they lost. 

Our lives in Scotland dont revolve around sports clubs like the scandinavians do as their local club will play all different sports over the year and the whole family is usually involved meaning that is their day out rather than away for day to m&ds or something. We have the facilities at all our schools now and they are not open at nights or weekends for use which is a travesty.

Even if they were it would take a long time to move our culture into how the scandinavians attend sports clubs which is why I feel that the schools need to be given more money so that every secondary school in Scotland is run like the performance schools. The kids are there every day and so its not something they need to go to if for instance they (cant be bothered tonight) they are a captive audience and we need to utilise it as the days of boys/men playing huge games down the park every night are long gone and this has led to a huge drop in the standard of player as well as a love of the game for our youth. Our young kids love football same as us oldies but by not playing enough they seem to lose the love for it. Get them playing every day at school with 7 a side 5 aside and 11 a side tournaments as well as coaching that is available at performance schools and theres no doubt our level would improve dramatically. This would also get pride in your school more as can be seen with the few schools who do take football seriously. Just now for most its an hour session 2 nights a week and games on a weekend for local club which isnt enough to be good at anything. 

Another point that was raised earlier that all the danes are at big clubs all over europe and ours arent is in part i feel down to our media who bum up the glagow 2 to be something they arent which is a european superpower. They have had 2 euro finals between them in 50 years with the next best i think last 16 similar to copenhagen for example. The Danes see their big teams as a stepping stone to the world where our players see ours as the pinnacle of their careers and that again is a huge issue. 

All in that 1st half last night was abysmal and whilst the 2nd was miles better I just could not believe how much better they were than us with their movement. Yes we had chances 2nd half but we are poorly coached and clarke has had an easy ride same as all other numptys before him other than strachan who was unlucky imo and although i felt it was time for him to go i wish now he was still in charge or someone like him who tries to play football. Every new manager roughly over last 20 years is same when we all know they are hopeless as their teams get passed of the park here in scotland or if they ever get into europe. All I hear a lot is we need to do basics well before we can play, well the 1st basic is pass the ball to a team mate and look to get it again or create space for another team mate to receive it.

Effin sick this morning and cannot see much hope unfortunately for a bit and that would be a travesty with the players we have.

Last point on clarke is why was kenny mclean in middle of 3 midfielders? He has done nothing to suggest he can dictate a game where gilmour has and in the 2nd half when he went in middle you saw the difference. We need to build everything around gilmour .

Also as I said on another thread when patterson was out clarke should have brought in ralston that is on him as he knew if odonnel couldnt play then we were light and that was a major f@@k up. Ralston would have gave maehle something to worry about with his directness and power. Patterson needs to start v moldova to give us some attacking threat on right and with mcginn back we need to be winning by 3+ .

Could be all over by tuesday but then again ..................

[gkm_vancouver]

Theres no doubt that kids upbringing is having an impact although this has alsobeen talkend about for years. Does the SFA and the politicians really talk about it and invest long term? I remember as a kid living in the south side of Glasgow and apart from a short period of playing with the Boys Brigade there was very little organised kids football. Teacher strikes waspartly to blame but I also remember being kicked off the park in Pollok Estate a when they were building the Burrell Collection. Are there many areas now?

Notwithstanding all that we still have a squad of decent players that play at a high enough level to be able to perform better than we did last night. TBH I don't think Clarke has progressed much since Serbia and don;t think he's really got what it takes to get us to that higher level of achievement. Don't think his coaching staff have done much for the team either. He was the same as a club manager in England. We only seem to start playing when we go behind. Although Vogts was not a success I think we may be better with a decent foreign manager that is able to have some influence with the SFA also. Chances of that however are pretty slim though.