Scottish players in action 21/22

[Scots_Wha_Hae]

44 minutes ago, Clyde1998 said:

Although, tbf, we all probably thought before Tierney showed up we'd had the last prodigy breaking through in Scotland.

With players like Hickey or Ramsay, if they were perceived positively by a club from the top five leagues there'd be no chance of a club outside the Old Firm being able to keep hold of them for any prolonged period, not just due to the player wanting to play at a higher level, but financially: £1.5m (+ any add ons) for Hickey is completely different for Hearts as it would be for Rangers or Celtic; Rangers could get £11m for Patterson and Celtic could keep hold of Tierney for a significant period.

The reality of modern football means if we want the best possible national team, we want as many players as possible playing in the top leagues (especially from an early age). I'd argue players like Barry Ferguson, Shaun Maloney, Scott Brown or Callum McGregor could've developed into better players had they not stayed in Scotland for as long as they did (or for their entire career). The same is true for any country that isn't one of the big four or five - the Dutch, Belgians, Portugese, Brazilians and Argentines all have the same issue (as do the French to a certain degree).

Given how few good players Scotland has produced in the last 30 years (and particularly players actually from Scotland), one of the big differences between us and those you mention is that our best players haven’t ‘retired’ back to our league. I think/hope that our clubs producing more players should help with this which will help raise the overall standard in the league.

[mcguffin]

4 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

Gilmour had by far his best 30 mins for Brighton in the 2nd half. Demanding the ball and making things happen. 1st half he looked like he was trying to do everything too safe.

I agree. 2nd half he was tremendous (Gilmour and Mitomo the best players on the park for me in the 2nd half). What I found interesting is that he wasn't doing anything particularly different to what he did during his 'failure' season with Norwich. The difference being that when he calls for the ball, whether or not he's covered by 2 opponents or not, his Brighton team mates give him it. And invariably he does something good with the ball when he gets it.

It's unfortunate that he plays the same position as Moises Caicedo (who returns from suspension next game). But Gilmour couldn't have done much more I think to impress De Zerbi. (Fingers crossed the manager likes what he saw and starts Billy Gilmour next game).

[mcguffin]

6 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

I think that caution is probably understandable when you're not playing regularly and don't want to make mistakes. Lot of talk about bids for Mac Allister after his world cup performances, so maybe we'll see a bit more of Gilmour hopefully.

🤞

[Clyde1998]

11 hours ago, borojock said:

Whats concerning is the amount of Scottish players playing for any team in the top league. No stats or data to back my thoughts up but it feels less and less Scottish players are playing regular first team football for the scottish top league teams 

You look at the goalie situation there is only a handful of scottish goalies who are 1st or 2nd choice at the 12 teams. 

If this continues which you assume it will could have bad consequences for us for the years to come 

You're correct:

A big drop off this season, while the number of players from elsewhere in the British Isles more than tripled between 2004 and 2013 - plateauing at about a third of minutes.

It appears Scottish players are being replaced by those from the rUK or Ireland rather than those from elsewhere in the world; those from outside the British Isles have declined massively between 2001 and 2005 and has been fairly stable since.

For clarity: the graph is based on the nationalities of players from FBref. As an example, Scott Arfield would be classified as Canadian (and therefore Rest of the World in my graph above) for all seasons despite being officially Scottish with FIFA until 2016(?) when he made his Canada debut. Similarly a player born in England, who played for a Caribbean national team (for example) would be categorised as Rest of the World rather than Other UK or Ireland.

I'd be interested in finding the data prior to the 2000-01 season, as there was probably a big drop in Scottish players playing in our top flight in the 90s.

[Clyde1998]

9 minutes ago, Scots_Wha_Hae said:

Given how few good players Scotland has produced in the last 30 years (and particularly players actually from Scotland), one of the big differences between us and those you mention is that our best players haven’t ‘retired’ back to our league. I think/hope that our clubs producing more players should help with this which will help raise the overall standard in the league.

There's also the financial boost clubs will receive from selling good young players; clubs can produce better young players who'll improve the league while they're here, hold out for more money either generating even more money or keeping those players in Scotland for longer before higher fees are met, and allowing clubs to attract better players in the transfer market.

[DAVIDB46]

6 hours ago, mcguffin said:

I agree. 2nd half he was tremendous (Gilmour and Mitomo the best players on the park for me in the 2nd half). What I found interesting is that he wasn't doing anything particularly different to what he did during his 'failure' season with Norwich. The difference being that when he calls for the ball, whether or not he's covered by 2 opponents or not, his Brighton team mates give him it. And invariably he does something good with the ball when he gets it.

It's unfortunate that he plays the same position as Moises Caicedo (who returns from suspension next game). But Gilmour couldn't have done much more I think to impress De Zerbi. (Fingers crossed the manager likes what he saw and starts Billy Gilmour next game).

I know as Scotland fans we work with a very low bar .

i appreciate that he hasn’t played much , but looks a country mile short of the standard required at this level.

although it was not the easiest game to try and make an impression 

 

 

[ger intae them]

didn’t see the game, but how can you say he’s a mile short of prem league standard but McMuffin says, in spells, he was one of the best on the park (although he was worst Brighton player in bbc ratings) …… all about opinions. 
Only important thing is he started & played 90. He has to push on from this to kick start a sadly flagging career.

[mccaughey85]

4 minutes ago, ger intae them said:

didn’t see the game, but how can you say he’s a mile short of prem league standard but McMuffin says, in spells, he was one of the best on the park (although he was worst Brighton player in bbc ratings) …… all about opinions. 
Only important thing is he started & played 90. He has to push on from this to kick start a sadly flagging career.

Either way its not looking massively promising for him. Lets just hope macallister and caicedo get sold leaving gilmour with more chance of gametime.

[mcguffin]

4 hours ago, ger intae them said:

didn’t see the game, but how can you say he’s a mile short of prem league standard but McMuffin says, in spells, he was one of the best on the park (although he was worst Brighton player in bbc ratings) …… all about opinions. 
Only important thing is he started & played 90. He has to push on from this to kick start a sadly flagging career.8

I saw the BBC ratings (worst Brighton player), and started to doubt my own impressions. Interestingly his stats for the game were pretty good and confirmed what my own eyes were telling me: 95% pass completion rate for 80 attempted passes. Considering many of these passes were first touch passes under pressure from a very strong Arsenal Midfield, that's not bad I think.

My hunch is that speed and physicality are prized over everything else by many Premier League fans and pundits. Efficient passing under extreme pressure, less so. So it's possible much of what Gilmour does well, just passes under the radar?  As ger intae them states "...all about opinions". And the important one for us is De Zerbi's opinion.

[mcguffin]

...at 00:56 you can see Billy Gilmour's pass to Pascal Gross which lead to Mitoma's goal  in this video (if the link works).
 

Edited January 1, 2023 by mcguffin

[morrie21]

3 hours ago, mcguffin said:

I saw the BBC ratings (worst Brighton player), and started to doubt my own impressions. Interestingly his stats for the game were pretty good and confirmed what my own eyes were telling me: 95% pass completion rate for 80 attempted passes. Considering many of these passes were first touch passes under pressure from a very strong Arsenal Midfield, that's not bad I think.

My hunch is that speed and physicality are prized over everything else by many Premier League fans and pundits. Efficient passing under extreme pressure, less so. So it's possible much of what Gilmour does well, just passes under the radar?  As ger intae them states "...all about opinions". And the important one for us is De Zerbi's opinion.

Aye, always trust your own eyes. Goes for whatever you are watching.

[Caledonian Craig]

3 hours ago, mcguffin said:

I saw the BBC ratings (worst Brighton player), and started to doubt my own impressions.

I'd say that massively influencing that low rating was his headed clearance (bit of a stinker) that led to an Arsenal goal. That sort of thing greatly pisses off fans and causes them to score the performance overly low because of that error ignoring all the good things he did.

[mcguffin]

29 minutes ago, morrie21 said:

Aye, always trust your own eyes. Goes for whatever you are watching.

👍

[mcguffin]

17 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I'd say that massively influencing that low rating was his headed clearance (bit of a stinker) that led to an Arsenal goal. That sort of thing greatly pisses off fans and causes them to score the performance overly low because of that error ignoring all the good things he did.

good point. That was a 'bit of a stinker' of a clearance.

[ceudmilefailte]

3 hours ago, morrie21 said:

Aye, always trust your own eyes. Goes for whatever you are watching.

A blinkered approach won't help though. 

[Hertsscot]

3 hours ago, mcguffin said:

good point. That was a 'bit of a stinker' of a clearance.

Might have been a stinker of a clearance but iirc there was no Brighton players stationed round the edge of the box and to me that's a defensive failing. Had a quick look at one of the BHA forums and most of them thought he'd played decently particularly in the second half.

[bigfingers]

What an assist from Mcginn there. 

[syecosse]

What's the deal with Mckenna on the bench and noticed he did not play the other day.

 

 

[bigfingers]

8 minutes ago, syecosse said:

What's the deal with Mckenna on the bench and noticed he did not play the other day.

 

 

He’s been dropped I think. Hasn’t started in a while. 

[ceudmilefailte]

25 minutes ago, syecosse said:

What's the deal with Mckenna on the bench and noticed he did not play the other day.

 

 

A mile short of EPL standard. 

Cooper and Hanley are probably the only central defenders we have had close to this level in recent times. 

[Big Ramy 1314]

Ross Stewart scores for Sunderland.. Been following Sunderland lately as my sister lives in Durham and both her boys are big Sunderland fans..

[csinclair]

48 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

A mile short of EPL standard. 

Cooper and Hanley are probably the only central defenders we have had close to this level in recent times. 

Hanley is terrible, can't seem to defend without putting his arms all over the opposition player. Looked woeful in the EPL last season

[mcguffin]

3 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

Might have been a stinker of a clearance but iirc there was no Brighton players stationed round the edge of the box and to me that's a defensive failing. Had a quick look at one of the BHA forums and most of them thought he'd played decently particularly in the second half.

Fair point about the defensive positioning. And good to hear that Billy Gilmour got some okay comments on the BHA forums 👍

[syecosse]

Cheers for above reference Mckenna, I thought originally he was one of the better players for Forest but then ain't seen so much of them of late, again no idea why Clarke did not call up someone like Hyam. 

[scotlad]

6 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

Might have been a stinker of a clearance but iirc there was no Brighton players stationed round the edge of the box and to me that's a defensive failing. Had a quick look at one of the BHA forums and most of them thought he'd played decently particularly in the second half.

Spot on. He isn't a centre-half, he's a playmaking midfielder. He's not in the team to make clearances. The real issue was Brighton had no one on the edge of the box meaning Odegard had time and space to get his shot away.

I only saw the second half but I thought he played okay. Made a couple of good passes out to the flanks and made a key pass that helped set up Brighton's first goal. I'd say he did his chances of starting the next game no harm at all.