Caledonian Craig Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 (edited) 2 minutes ago, 0Neils40yarder said: How's Gilmours form at the moment? For Scotland? Great. And that is all that matters. We want/need players who are consistently very good in the dark blue - Gilmour is and McTominay is not. Simple. Edited January 20, 2022 by Caledonian Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breeks_mctavish Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 36 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said: For Scotland? Great. And that is all that matters. We want/need players who are consistently very good in the dark blue - Gilmour is and McTominay is not. Simple. Anyone suggesting Gilmour not playing is on the windup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 If we play our usual 5-3-2 I would play a gilmour, Mctominay and Mcginn. Harsh on McGregor but he is the fourth best midfielder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 4 minutes ago, Malcolm said: If we play our usual 5-3-2 I would play a gilmour, Mctominay and Mcginn. Harsh on McGregor but he is the fourth best midfielder. And if we are going on what counts most of all the three best midfielders in a Scotland shirt currently are Gilmour, McGinn and McGregor. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceudmilefailte Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 2 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said: Slating him? No. Merely stating the facts. He has been way below his United levels when playing for us. It is undeniable. Our midfield has excelled with McGregor, Gilmour and McGinn and they are the three that should start there against Ukraine. If either of them are injured then McTominay probably starts. I said some people on there not on here, but I agree regarding his Scotland form. I would say that most players peak between 26-28 it's just a matter of how long they keep that peak for. Mctominay recently still seems to be on the upgrade so if he improves further and maintains that level it will be hard to keep him out of the team no matter what his previous Scotland form is like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 2 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said: I said some people on there not on here, but I agree regarding his Scotland form. I would say that most players peak between 26-28 it's just a matter of how long they keep that peak for. Mctominay recently still seems to be on the upgrade so if he improves further and maintains that level it will be hard to keep him out of the team no matter what his previous Scotland form is like. Don't get me wrong I hope he can turn into a star for us but we've been here before with players playing at big league clubs but failing to shine for Scotland. I just fear McTominay will be the same - that could change if he starts putting in consistent strong displays for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 Mcginn is indispensable given his goal contribution, but I am happy that the rest if any were injured we would have cover and not be significantly weaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanderark14 Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 2 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said: Slating him? No. Merely stating the facts. He has been way below his United levels when playing for us. It is undeniable. Our midfield has excelled with McGregor, Gilmour and McGinn and they are the three that should start there against Ukraine. If either of them are injured then McTominay probably starts. Mctominay has sometimes been playing out of position for Scotland. Play him in a box to box role for Scotland and he becomes our best midfielder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 9 minutes ago, vanderark14 said: Play him in a box to box role for Scotland and he becomes our best midfielder I will believe that when I see it. Until then it is pure speculation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanderark14 Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 5 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said: I will believe that when I see it. Until then it is pure speculation. No its not, when he is played there for Man Utd he is brilliant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 2 minutes ago, vanderark14 said: No its not, when he is played there for Man Utd he is brilliant Scotland and Manchester United - two totally different settings. As we have seen so many times before with international football. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanderark14 Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 7 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said: Scotland and Manchester United - two totally different settings. As we have seen so many times before with international football. As I said above, play him in that position because he flourishes there with man utd. You are unfairly judging him on playing a lot at CB with us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 5 minutes ago, vanderark14 said: As I said above, play him in that position because he flourishes there with man utd. You are unfairly judging him on playing a lot at CB with us He has played in his chosen position for us too (midfield) and still not performed to the standards of Gilmour, McGregor and McGinn. At present we have a system and players in midfield that works so I am staggered as to why people want to change a winning formula by putting a player in there that has simply not performed for us. Madness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanderark14 Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 19 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said: He has played in his chosen position for us too (midfield) and still not performed to the standards of Gilmour, McGregor and McGinn. At present we have a system and players in midfield that works so I am staggered as to why people want to change a winning formula by putting a player in there that has simply not performed for us. Madness. He's mostly been played as a holding midfielder not a more attacking role. Simply not performed? That's just nonsense and ignorance spewing out of you. He has had good games for us. I'm more staggered at how close minded you are being, your usually one of the better posters on here but your talking utter Shite right now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 2 minutes ago, vanderark14 said: He's mostly been played as a holding midfielder not a more attacking role. Simply not performed? That's just nonsense and ignorance spewing out of you. He has had good games for us. I'm more staggered at how close minded you are being, your usually one of the better posters on here but your talking utter Shite right now We shall agree to disagree then. Look through all our good performances of late and it has been with the midfield I stated. What is so controversial about not wanting to break up a winning team and formula? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamond Scot Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 32 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said: We shall agree to disagree then. Look through all our good performances of late and it has been with the midfield I stated. What is so controversial about not wanting to break up a winning team and formula? Theres a difference between nit wanting to break up a winning formula (that I agree with) and the declaration that McTom has been rubbish or not ever performed for Scotland. He has mainly been played out of position and on the whole has played very well at rcb. Yes, his positioning at times has been off but his ability to be calm on the ball and find accurate passes through the lines is massive for us and also key to the good performances of ppl like McGinn. When he has played in CM it appeared to be in a defensive role. Again he has done that well but its not playing to his strengths. He scored the winner in our most important recent game. Not saying you are guilty of this but far too many football fans look for the highlight reel events to determine whether somebodys played well or not. McToms ability to move the ball fast was crucial in turning around the Cyprus game (almost certain it was this game that he came on as a sub). His ability on the ball means others can benefit. If we had played with defenders who defend 1st and foremost and dont have his composure then the likes of McGinn and Gilmour would be busy running around after lost causes rather than getting the ball to feet where they can influence the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 3 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said: Theres a difference between nit wanting to break up a winning formula (that I agree with) and the declaration that McTom has been rubbish or not ever performed for Scotland. He has mainly been played out of position and on the whole has played very well at rcb. Yes, his positioning at times has been off but his ability to be calm on the ball and find accurate passes through the lines is massive for us and also key to the good performances of ppl like McGinn. When he has played in CM it appeared to be in a defensive role. Again he has done that well but its not playing to his strengths. He scored the winner in our most important recent game. Not saying you are guilty of this but far too many football fans look for the highlight reel events to determine whether somebodys played well or not. McToms ability to move the ball fast was crucial in turning around the Cyprus game (almost certain it was this game that he came on as a sub). His ability on the ball means others can benefit. If we had played with defenders who defend 1st and foremost and dont have his composure then the likes of McGinn and Gilmour would be busy running around after lost causes rather than getting the ball to feet where they can influence the game. I am saying for who he plays for and all the fuss made of him he has been disappointing for us overall. It is weird. O'Donnell takes big pelters from many on here for being crap but invariably puts in good performances for us - hence he keeps his place in squads. McTominay gets plaudits for being great yet more often than not has disappointed for Scotland. Sure he scored V Israel but that should not be used to cloud the bigger picture. Maybe what grates with some here is that I judge players solely on performances for Scotland as to me that is what matters most of all. Gilmour and Patterson are prime examples of doing well (no very well) for us despite being very short of club football at that time. If McTominay comes into the side and does well I will be delighted and hold my hands up straight away. But I am old enough to know and remember that we have had several players held in high esteem for the clubs they played for and their good form for them but just did not deliver at international level. I do hope McTominay can avoid becoming another player in that bracket and we shall see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamond Scot Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 18 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said: I am saying for who he plays for and all the fuss made of him he has been disappointing for us overall. It is weird. O'Donnell takes big pelters from many on here for being crap but invariably puts in good performances for us - hence he keeps his place in squads. McTominay gets plaudits for being great yet more often than not has disappointed for Scotland. Sure he scored V Israel but that should not be used to cloud the bigger picture. Maybe what grates with some here is that I judge players solely on performances for Scotland as to me that is what matters most of all. Gilmour and Patterson are prime examples of doing well (no very well) for us despite being very short of club football at that time. If McTominay comes into the side and does well I will be delighted and hold my hands up straight away. But I am old enough to know and remember that we have had several players held in high esteem for the clubs they played for and their good form for them but just did not deliver at international level. I do hope McTominay can avoid becoming another player in that bracket and we shall see. Is part of the disappointment not because of who he plays for. Because ppl think that becauae he plays for Man Utd that he should be doing Roy of the Rovers stuff every game. Darren Fletcher got the same for years. My general point on McTom for Scotland is that he has been good. He has lacked the standout, grabbing the game by scruff of the neck game but he raises the quality of our play. 2 players can play the same pass but 1 makes a huge difference to the outcome of the game if they play it quicker, the pass is hit harder and more accurately. Thats what McTom does comparred to McClean, Fleck etc. McGreggor has been good for Scotland recently and the only reason I think deserves to play before McTom is the relationship with Gilmour and McGinn and the fact the next games a semi final. That being said id play Mctom as one of the 2 behind Adams. Alongside McGinn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 8 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said: Is part of the disappointment not because of who he plays for. Because ppl think that becauae he plays for Man Utd that he should be doing Roy of the Rovers stuff every game. Darren Fletcher got the same for years. My general point on McTom for Scotland is that he has been good. He has lacked the standout, grabbing the game by scruff of the neck game but he raises the quality of our play. 2 players can play the same pass but 1 makes a huge difference to the outcome of the game if they play it quicker, the pass is hit harder and more accurately. Thats what McTom does comparred to McClean, Fleck etc. McGreggor has been good for Scotland recently and the only reason I think deserves to play before McTom is the relationship with Gilmour and McGinn and the fact the next games a semi final. That being said id play Mctom as one of the 2 behind Adams. Alongside McGinn. No I wouldn't say it was the problem. True that expectation levels are increased but Darren Fletcher had the same but he was a vitally important player for us and often put in great performances for us. With McTominay it may be (to me) that he does not excel for us. Sure he scored V Israel but how many assists has he had for us or how many games has he been a rock at the back? I struggle to name them. Of course McTominay will be the midfielder who steps in should McGinn, McGregor or Gilmour pick up an injury and I hope he can put on a great display to establish himself as a regular in the side. McTominay would, perhaps, have benefitted better if around five years ago when we had meaningless friendlies where the manager could experiment and try different players. That way we may have found out the role he can best do in the side or the best way Clarke can use him as I don't think he's worked that out yet and get the best from him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0Neils40yarder Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 5 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said: For Scotland? Great. And that is all that matters. We want/need players who are consistently very good in the dark blue - Gilmour is and McTominay is not. Simple. When games are played months apart, 'form for Scotland' goes out the windae...players in form should play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamond Scot Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 31 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said: No I wouldn't say it was the problem. True that expectation levels are increased but Darren Fletcher had the same but he was a vitally important player for us and often put in great performances for us. With McTominay it may be (to me) that he does not excel for us. Sure he scored V Israel but how many assists has he had for us or how many games has he been a rock at the back? I struggle to name them. Of course McTominay will be the midfielder who steps in should McGinn, McGregor or Gilmour pick up an injury and I hope he can put on a great display to establish himself as a regular in the side. McTominay would, perhaps, have benefitted better if around five years ago when we had meaningless friendlies where the manager could experiment and try different players. That way we may have found out the role he can best do in the side or the best way Clarke can use him as I don't think he's worked that out yet and get the best from him. I agree that we havent seen the best of McTom yet but I disagree that he has been poor. Games arent just about goals and assists. As I said previously, he has been instrumental in how we play, especially when playing rcb with his ability to pass with accuracy through the lines rather than putting the ball long into channels. Fletcher got slaughtered on here, at games and on phone in's (causing me to make my 1 and only call to a phone in to defend him after Maccedonia away. It was only later in his career and more so when he was absent that he started to get the credit he deserved. The very same thing was thrown at Fletcher, how many goals and assists does he get for Scotland. Also similar for Robertson not so long ago. Its no surprise that Robertsons performances appear to have gotten better when he has a solid defence beside him and attacking players with intelligence and movement to play with. He hasnt suddenly started playing better. As I said, I wouldnt put McTom into the midfield 3 for the semi if others are fit. Doesnt mean he has been poor though. To flip your question, how many goals has he been directly responsible for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotlad Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 On 1/18/2022 at 10:42 PM, ceudmilefailte said: Apologies you did say around 20. I think his league scoring rate dropped as the season went on last year and that trend seems to be continuing. I really cant have one goal in a friendly as proof of International ability though. End of the day it shows just how short we are of options when we are calling up a less than prolific Championship player who isn't even guaranteed a start for Stoke. Of course it isn't, I wasn't suggesting it was, just that he has been slightly more successful than some people we've played recently in that position. If he'd managed to score, say, four or five goals in his appearances so far that would suggest he's taken to the international game like a duck to water, and his current club form would be of less consequence. Truth be told we haven't had a regular goalscoring CF since Kenny Miller, which is one reason why I fear we may get found out in the play-offs. Then again, I didn't even think we'd make the play-offs, so hopefully I'm wrong again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breeks_mctavish Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 I think you might have to consider central defence and midfield together to work out the best team. LCB - Tierney CB - Hanley / Cooper RCB - Souttar / Hendry / McTominay CM - McGregor / McTominay CM - Gilmour ACM - McGinn It’s a tough call but I think I’d go McT - Hanley - Tierney Gilmour - McGregor McGinn (reserves right to change mind!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scot1 Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 I’d play McTominay in a midfield 3 beside Gilmour and McGregor, push up McGinn off Adams/Dykes. I think it improve the team, I think it will allow us to hold onto possession better, push teams back into their own half and play in the opposition half for good periods of the game. I also think it would make us harder to breakdown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scot1 Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 Souttar / Hendry is a tough call if both are fit and available. Hanley / Cooper too is a difficult one considering how well Cooper played in the last matches. I’d expect Hanley to get the nod though and probably Hendry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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