Results against top sides

[weekevie04]

10 hours ago, Bristolhibby said:

It’s drawing with Israel and Austria that we need to convert into wins.

Beating the top team once does not qualify you for tournaments.

Going to places like Kazakstan, Macedonia and Georgia and coming back with 3 points does. 

Fully agree.

Its the reason Wales, NI, Ireland, Iceland, Albania etc got to the Euros in 2016. Iceland took 6 pts from Kazakhstan ; Ireland 6 fae Georgia and Wales beat Azerbaijan twice.

I wouldn't back us winning any of those away games.

[exile]

As I see it the interesting question is not so much Scotland qualifying or failing to qualify, but why, in the history of these tournaments, we never once got out our group, whereas comparable countries (say, Wales, N Ireland, Ireland) qualified less often, but made more impact when they did.

Wales only made it to 3 tournaments (1 WC, 2 Euros) but got to the knock out stage on every occasion! (100%)

N Ireland made it to 4 (3 WC, 1 Euro) and got out their group 3 out of 4 times (75%). 

Rep Ireland made it to 6 (3 WC, 3 Euros) and got out their group 4 out of 6 times (67%).

Scotland made it to 11 (8 WC, 3 Euros) and never got out of group (0%).

[Texas Pete]

4 minutes ago, exile said:

As I see it the interesting question is not so much Scotland qualifying or failing to qualify, but why, in the history of these tournaments, we never once got out our group, whereas comparable countries (say, Wales, N Ireland, Ireland) qualified less often, but made more impact when they did.

Wales only made it to 3 tournaments (1 WC, 2 Euros) but got to the knock out stage on every occasion! (100%)

N Ireland made it to 4 (3 WC, 1 Euro) and got out their group 3 out of 4 times (75%). 

Rep Ireland made it to 6 (3 WC, 3 Euros) and got out their group 4 out of 6 times (67%).

Scotland made it to 11 (8 WC, 3 Euros) and never got out of group (0%).

A mixture of bad luck, complacency and just not playing very well when we got there. It’s not going to get any easier either as we’ll likely be bottom seeds in our group when we do qualify again.

Having said that it will be interesting to see what happens if the Euros does go to 32 teams from 2028 as traditional qualifying will no longer happen so we may actually be a higher seed at some point if we do well in the Nations League (depending on how UEFA chooses to do it obviously).

 

[Toepoke]

5 hours ago, Texas Pete said:

Having said that it will be interesting to see what happens if the Euros does go to 32 teams from 2028 as traditional qualifying will no longer happen so we may actually be a higher seed at some point if we do well in the Nations League (depending on how UEFA chooses to do it obviously).

32 team Euros would render the qualification a joke, nearly 60% of European teams reaching the tournament!

 

 

[mccaughey85]

A 32 team euros would be ridiculous unless they start including countries from the middle east. Maybe the future of the euros might be a European and middle east tournament or a European and North American tournament. Sounds a bit far fetched but Israel are already part of the current tournament qualification. Why not include a few other countries from the middle east as well. 

[Texas Pete]

10 hours ago, Toepoke said:

32 team Euros would render the qualification a joke, nearly 60% of European teams reaching the tournament!

 

 

At first glance yes but 100% of CONMEBOL teams reach the Copa America finals so I doubt that would put UEFA off. 

Personally I think the Euros finals should be 16 teams but I think UEFA are desperate to expand it to 32. I think they will only do it if they can agree a format for an extended Nations League as they would be looking to do away with qualifiers and that would cost them a lot of TV money. 

[Texas Pete]

10 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

A 32 team euros would be ridiculous unless they start including countries from the middle east. Maybe the future of the euros might be a European and middle east tournament or a European and North American tournament. Sounds a bit far fetched but Israel are already part of the current tournament qualification. Why not include a few other countries from the middle east as well. 

I’m not sure what Middle Eastern teams would bring to the tournament to be honest but I suppose it would be worth considering. I’m also not sure if the European teams that narrowly miss out on making the finals would be very happy about it. 

A 32 team Euros wouldn’t be ideal but the 24 team set up isn’t ideal either. Being able to get out of the group in 3rd place devalues the tournament for me. I think it was fine the way it was between 1996 and 2012 but UEFA is allegedly keen to expand it to 32 teams for the 2028 tournament.
 

[ProudScot]

11 hours ago, Toepoke said:

32 team Euros would render the qualification a joke, nearly 60% of European teams reaching the tournament!

 

 

That is true. Europe has many more countries in it now than it had in the 80s and 90s though.

South América for example has the exact same. 

[Toepoke]

46 minutes ago, Texas Pete said:

I’m not sure what Middle Eastern teams would bring to the tournament to be honest but I suppose it would be worth considering. I’m also not sure if the European teams that narrowly miss out on making the finals would be very happy about it. 

A 32 team Euros wouldn’t be ideal but the 24 team set up isn’t ideal either. Being able to get out of the group in 3rd place devalues the tournament for me. I think it was fine the way it was between 1996 and 2012 but UEFA is allegedly keen to expand it to 32 teams for the 2028 tournament.
 

If you start adding Asian teams as well it would become a watered down World Cup. No need given the number of teams in Europe as it is. Iran v Israel would be a must see encounter though.

The 24 team format is a bit messy but it does make for some interesting conclusions to the groups. Eg in the latest Euros, North Macedonia were the only team eliminated before the final round of fixtures. 

 

 

[Texas Pete]

29 minutes ago, Toepoke said:

If you start adding Asian teams as well it would become a watered down World Cup. No need given the number of teams in Europe as it is. Iran v Israel would be a must see encounter though.

The 24 team format is a bit messy but it does make for some interesting conclusions to the groups. Eg in the latest Euros, North Macedonia were the only team eliminated before the final round of fixtures. 

 

 

Yeah fair point about the conclusion of groups but it can also have a negative impact on the middle round of fixtures. A lot of the big teams weren’t that bothered about attacking in their middle games after winning their first match. It also almost renders the group stage pointless. 

With the possible exception of Turkey all of the eliminated teams were the ones that were expected to go out. That may have been due to how the playoffs teams were decided right enough rather than the format. 

I can’t see it ever going back to 16 teams though so it’s really a case of which one of 24 and 32 is the lesser of 2 evils. 

There are lots of negatives about increasing to 32 but one positive is we would likely qualify for most of them. We might even get out of a group at some point. 😂

[Texas Pete]

57 minutes ago, ProudScot said:

That is true. Europe has many more countries in it now than it had in the 80s and 90s though.

South América for example has the exact same. 

The Euros has increased from 8 teams to 24 teams already to reflect that though. Increasing to 32 teams may be a step too far. 

[ceudmilefailte]

Surprised they haven't suggested the big five are allowed to enter B teams to maximise revenue. 

Let's be honest Spain B against Scotland would be a lot more appealing than some of the games if it is increased to 32 teams. 

[Bristolhibby]

On 7/12/2021 at 6:43 PM, Texas Pete said:

Absolutely. 18 points can be enough for second place in a group of 6. As a third pot team that equates to beating the teams ranked below you home and away.

Picking up some points against the teams ranked above us would also help obviously but beating the teams we are better than gives you the foundation to push on and get to tournaments.

Easier said than done though as we have proved for many years. 

IMHO we needed to beat both Austria at home and Israel away.

We didn’t, and history / experience has taught me we are goosed.

We will know more after this next round of three. We need to beat Moldova at home 100%, I would say we need to beat Austria away (to compensate from not beating them at home). And if I’m honest a cheeky point v Denmark is required. If not in September then definitely at Hampden. 

So that’s a minimum of 6 points, 7 would be great and 9 unbelievable.

I’ll take a punt at us achieving 3. 4 at a push.

J 

[RDFH64]

On 7/13/2021 at 1:38 AM, mccaughey85 said:

A 32 team euros would be ridiculous unless they start including countries from the middle east. Maybe the future of the euros might be a European and middle east tournament or a European and North American tournament. Sounds a bit far fetched but Israel are already part of the current tournament qualification. Why not include a few other countries from the middle east as well. 

It’s bad enough having the likes of Israel, Kazakhstan & Azerbaijan classed as European without adding more Middle Eastern country’s. Maybe I’m biased due to our past results against Israel & Kazakhstan 🥴

[RDFH64]

On 7/13/2021 at 3:53 PM, ceudmilefailte said:

Surprised they haven't suggested the big five are allowed to enter B teams to maximise revenue. 

Let's be honest Spain B against Scotland would be a lot more appealing than some of the games if it is increased to 32 teams. 

Come on, what self serving eejits would suggest something like that 🤯

[Texas Pete]

2 hours ago, Bristolhibby said:

IMHO we needed to beat both Austria at home and Israel away.

We didn’t, and history / experience has taught me we are goosed.

We will know more after this next round of three. We need to beat Moldova at home 100%, I would say we need to beat Austria away (to compensate from not beating them at home). And if I’m honest a cheeky point v Denmark is required. If not in September then definitely at Hampden. 

So that’s a minimum of 6 points, 7 would be great and 9 unbelievable.

I’ll take a punt at us achieving 3. 4 at a push.

J 

Yeah drawing with Austria at home will probably scupper our chances of getting second in the group unless we beat them away. A draw in Austria wouldn’t be the end of the world but would make qualifying difficult.

Drawing with Israel away isn’t a disaster as long as we beat them at home given our recent results against them. We have lost there more that once.

I always feel we need to take at 4 points from the teams competing for second and hope they take points off each other and drop points to the lower ranked teams. Unfortunately it’s us that have been dropping points over the last 20 years. 

If we beat Moldova twice, the Faroes twice, take 4 points off Israel and 2 off Austria we would have 18 points which might be enough for 2nd place (although we would be relying on Denmark pumping everyone and Israel taking something off Austria).

Getting anything from Denmark would be brilliant.

 

[mccaughey85]

On 7/13/2021 at 12:28 PM, Texas Pete said:

I’m not sure what Middle Eastern teams would bring to the tournament to be honest but I suppose it would be worth considering. I’m also not sure if the European teams that narrowly miss out on making the finals would be very happy about it. 

A 32 team Euros wouldn’t be ideal but the 24 team set up isn’t ideal either. Being able to get out of the group in 3rd place devalues the tournament for me. I think it was fine the way it was between 1996 and 2012 but UEFA is allegedly keen to expand it to 32 teams for the 2028 tournament.
 

They probably wouldn't bring much to the actual tournament but they would be teams that could be added to qualification groups in order to justify a 32 team tournament.

I am not saying it should happen or that it would be good but it's the only way I could see uefa justifying having a 32 team tournament, having 32 teams qualifying out of 50 plus countries is a bit ridiculous and kinda makes a mockery out if qualifying. Having 32 teams qualifying out of 70plus teams would be a bit more reasonable.

[Texas Pete]

10 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

They probably wouldn't bring much to the actual tournament but they would be teams that could be added to qualification groups in order to justify a 32 team tournament.

I am not saying it should happen or that it would be good but it's the only way I could see uefa justifying having a 32 team tournament, having 32 teams qualifying out of 50 plus countries is a bit ridiculous and kinda makes a mockery out if qualifying. Having 32 teams qualifying out of 70plus teams would be a bit more reasonable.

Even the best Middle Eastern teams aren’t any better than the teams that just missed out this time. They also have the Asian cup or African cup of nations to play in so I doubt it would happen. 

100% of CONMEBOL teams play in the Copa America and there’s no qualifying for that and the tournament seems to be thriving. If the Euros does expand to 32 teams I don’t think there would be any qualifying as such. It’s more likely they would adapt the Nations League and the top 32 NL teams would qualify for the Euros. 

[mccaughey85]

4 hours ago, Texas Pete said:

Yeah drawing with Austria at home will probably scupper our chances of getting second in the group unless we beat them away. A draw in Austria wouldn’t be the end of the world but would make qualifying difficult.

Drawing with Israel away isn’t a disaster as long as we beat them at home given our recent results against them. We have lost there more that once.

I always feel we need to take at 4 points from the teams competing for second and hope they take points off each other and drop points to the lower ranked teams. Unfortunately it’s us that have been dropping points over the last 20 years. 

If we beat Moldova twice, the Faroes twice, take 4 points off Israel and 2 off Austria we would have 18 points which might be enough for 2nd place (although we would be relying on Denmark pumping everyone and Israel taking something off Austria).

Getting anything from Denmark would be brilliant.

 

I worked out yesterday that a very possible scenario is we go into the last game against Denmark at home needing a win. Denmark would of course be qualified by that point but it would still be a big ask to beat them. 

Austria get 2 wins v Moldova, W v faroes, 2 Wins v Israel, D v scotland. 

Thats them with 20 points. 

We W v Israel, 2 wins v Moldova, W v faroes, D v Austria, W v denmark

Leaves us with 21pts.

Big ask for us to beat Denmark but it can be done especially with a full hampden backing the team. The other hope is austria slip up to Israel or Moldova which is something we might do as well tbf. 

[mccaughey85]

4 minutes ago, Texas Pete said:

Even the best Middle Eastern teams aren’t any better than the teams that just missed out this time. They also have the Asian cup or African cup of nations to play in so I doubt it would happen. 

100% of CONMEBOL teams play in the Copa America and there’s no qualifying for that and the tournament seems to be thriving. If the Euros does expand to 32 teams I don’t think there would be any qualifying as such. It’s more likely they would adapt the Nations League and the top 32 NL teams would qualify for the Euros. 

Yeh I know they aren't but I am just trying to think how uefa might justify going to a 32 team tournament as its a bit of a ridiculous idea when only 55 teams enter. 

I suppose a 32 team tournament would mean the likes of Serbia, Ireland, Norway and ourselves would rarely miss out, and that's even if they let in a few more middle east teams. 

 

[Texas Pete]

1 hour ago, mccaughey85 said:

I worked out yesterday that a very possible scenario is we go into the last game against Denmark at home needing a win. Denmark would of course be qualified by that point but it would still be a big ask to beat them. 

Austria get 2 wins v Moldova, W v faroes, 2 Wins v Israel, D v scotland. 

Thats them with 20 points. 

We W v Israel, 2 wins v Moldova, W v faroes, D v Austria, W v denmark

Leaves us with 21pts.

Big ask for us to beat Denmark but it can be done especially with a full hampden backing the team. The other hope is austria slip up to Israel or Moldova which is something we might do as well tbf. 

I’d probably fancy our chances of beating Denmark at home in our last game (assuming they have already won the group) more than beating Moldova away. Both would still be difficult right enough even if Denmark rest players. 

At least we are still on with a chance but we need to get something in Austria and beat Moldova at Hampden in September to have a realistic chance going into the last 2 rounds of fixtures. 

If we can do that then win our 2 games in October then we have a decent chance. 

[Texas Pete]

1 hour ago, mccaughey85 said:

Yeh I know they aren't but I am just trying to think how uefa might justify going to a 32 team tournament as its a bit of a ridiculous idea when only 55 teams enter. 

I suppose a 32 team tournament would mean the likes of Serbia, Ireland, Norway and ourselves would rarely miss out, and that's even if they let in a few more middle east teams. 

 

They would justify it by pocketing huge bonuses based on the extra TV/Ticket/sponsorship money that 12 extra tournament games would bring in . It’s the same reason FIFA want a 48 team World Cup. It’s all about the cash. 

[duncan II]

I like the idea of a 32-team Euros. No need to worry about qualifying justification, that’s a bit weird. Don’t even need actual qualification. Just have Nations League as a route to Euros. With WC qualification, that’s quite a congested schedule anyway. 

Nations Leage/Euros/Wc qualification/WC. Do away with Euros qualification as separate to Nations League all together. More teams get opportunity to take part in showcase. Teams like Bolivia and Venezuela get to regularly, so why not Scotland and Latvia?