Results against top sides

[mccaughey85]

Over the last 20 years how many  friendlies and competitive games have we gotten a win/draw v a top tier side. I would say wins have been France twice, Holland once and Croatia twice. Draws that I can remember have been England twice, Holland once, Italy once. There's probably a couple more draws I can't remember but it's still not very many. 

We tend to beat a top side every 4/5 years but worryingly we haven't beaten a top side since Croatia in 2013. On a positive note we are probably due a win v a top side soon which means hopefully a win v Denmark is on the horizon. 

[AlfieMoon]

Absolutely. We don’t upset the odds anywhere near enough. 

[mccaughey85]

3 minutes ago, AlfieMoon said:

Absolutely. We don’t upset the odds anywhere near enough. 

We really could do with a smash and grab job like mcfadden/Paris in this upcoming Denmark game. Would really boost our chances of second place. Even a draw would be great.

[Barney Rubble]

W v Ukraine 2007, D v Germany 2003.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Barney Rubble

[mccaughey85]

7 minutes ago, Barney Rubble said:

W v Ukraine 2007, D v Germany 2003.

The D v germany was a good result. Not sure I would count Ukraine as a top side though. 

[Barney Rubble]

11 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

The D v germany was a good result. Not sure I would count Ukraine as a top side though. 

They were WC QF the year before.

Damn right it was a bloody good result - even more so in the context of the composition of the group.

[ProudScot]

13 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

The D v germany was a good result. Not sure I would count Ukraine as a top side though. 

Didn’t Ukraine get to the QF or SF at the 2006 World Cup? 

[mccaughey85]

7 minutes ago, Barney Rubble said:

They were WC QF the year before.

Damn right it was a bloody good result - even more so in the context of the composition of the group.

Yeh tbf I wouldnt quite class them as a top tier nation but maybe some ppl might of at that time. Probably borderline. 

[mccaughey85]

10 minutes ago, ProudScot said:

Didn’t Ukraine get to the QF or SF at the 2006 World Cup? 

Yeh it was a great win but its difficult to say whether they were a genuine top side. Personally I wouldn't of classed them as one but I can see why others might. 

[Grim Jim]

I seem to remember the Ukraine players standing in awe/bewilderment looking at us celebrating beating them at Hampden.   Were they thinking, "Look at them.  They've just beaten a top side"   or  "Feck me, these Shkots are easily pleased"?    Anyway, I enjoyed it even more than they did ☺️

[Grim Jim]

...a bit like in Zagreb.   The Croatian supporters gave Scots fans a standing ovation leaving the ground!   Not like we'd sung any great tunes or anything, just magnanimous in defeat.   What I'm getting at, is they knew they were good, but we (a wee diddy team) beat them.

A bit different from drawing Germany.   They would just be angry with themselves, and France just got pissed off with their manger (both 'cause so good at the time).

Closest upsets since have been against England (three times) and Germany & Spain.

[noctonjock]

We beat Denmark in a friendly a few years back 

[Dodger]

And yet the myth that we always do well against the top sides still persists in some people's heads 

[scotlad]

5 hours ago, noctonjock said:

We beat Denmark in a friendly a few years back 

We've beaten them twice in friendlies over the past 10 years, iirc, firstly under Levein then under Strachan about 5 years ago (I think it was John McGinn's debut).

[scotlad]

39 minutes ago, Dodger said:

And yet the myth that we always do well against the top sides still persists in some people's heads 

Indeed. If that theory was true we might have qualified for more tournaments.

[noctonjock]

1 minute ago, scotlad said:

We've beaten them twice in friendlies over the past 10 years, iirc, firstly under Levein then under Strachan about 5 years ago (I think it was John McGinn's debut).

It was McGinns debut and he was given MOTM 

[exile]

In terms of 'results against top sides' when it really matters: we have never really got a scalp in the sense of beating a top side putting them out of a tournament, not for a long time. Obviously we've never actually knocked someone out a tournament, in the knock-out stage, or in the sense of progressing at their expense.

In terms of qualifying, the most significant time I can remember must have been when we edged out France to qualify for 1990 WC. There, we actually beat France at home (a Mo Johnston double) in a campaign where we went on to qualify at their expense.  (It was also campaign where we beat Cyrus away with an injury time winner, I think the only time I can recall Scotland scoring/winning in injury time; and when we had to not lose the final game at Hampden, and thankfully were 1-0 ahead before conceding a 89th minute equaliser... to a crowd of 64k.)

Also would it count to call putting out Czechoslovakia to qualify for 1978 WC? They are not one of the traditional big guns but were reigning Europan champions at the time.

And of course the 78 win over Netherlands was the only time we actually beat a top-seeded side in a tournament, though obviously too little too late to make a difference as they qualified at our expense. 

Though Serbia are hardly a 'top tier' nation, qualifying at their expense (away) was probably our best, most meaningful result in the 'results against better sides' in recent years.

[Texas Pete]

We don’t really need to beat top teams all that often to qualify for tournaments, especially the Euros. We need to start beating our main rivals at home and taking something away from home as well as well as beating the teams ranked below us consistently. Our downfall in recent years has been dropping points at home to the likes of Austria, Georgia, Lithuania, Slovenia, Norway, Macedonia, Czech Republic etc. 

Beating the top teams is great but it gets you nothing if you don’t back it up by beating the lesser ranked teams as well as Euro 2008 qualifying proves. 

[The Black Bra]

2 hours ago, exile said:

In terms of 'results against top sides' when it really matters: we have never really got a scalp in the sense of beating a top side putting them out of a tournament, not for a long time. Obviously we've never actually knocked someone out a tournament, in the knock-out stage, or in the sense of progressing at their expense.

In terms of qualifying, the most significant time I can remember must have been when we edged out France to qualify for 1990 WC. There, we actually beat France at home (a Mo Johnston double) in a campaign where we went on to qualify at their expense.  (It was also campaign where we beat Cyrus away with an injury time winner, I think the only time I can recall Scotland scoring/winning in injury time; and when we had to not lose the final game at Hampden, and thankfully were 1-0 ahead before conceding a 89th minute equaliser... to a crowd of 64k.)

Also would it count to call putting out Czechoslovakia to qualify for 1978 WC? They are not one of the traditional big guns but were reigning Europan champions at the time.

And of course the 78 win over Netherlands was the only time we actually beat a top-seeded side in a tournament, though obviously too little too late to make a difference as they qualified at our expense. 

Though Serbia are hardly a 'top tier' nation, qualifying at their expense (away) was probably our best, most meaningful result in the 'results against better sides' in recent years.

As far as injury time winners, I also remember us getting that late, embarrassment-avoiding winner against Liechtenstein a few years ago, 

and McLeish’s first game we beat Georgia 2-1 when Craig Beattie scuffed one in off his thigh.

Not old enough to remember ‘78 but wasn’t it the case that Holland just needed to avoid losing by 3 goals? So they maybe weren’t treating it like a normal game.

I’ve always thought our best result in a tournament was bouncing back from losing to Costa Rica by beating a good Sweden side 2-1 in ‘90. That Sweden side knocked England out of the Euros 2 years later and got to the last 4 of World Cup in ‘94.

Switzerland in ‘96 would be up there if only we’d taken our chances….

[scotlad]

1 hour ago, The Black Bra said:

As far as injury time winners, I also remember us getting that late, embarrassment-avoiding winner against Liechtenstein a few years ago, 

and McLeish’s first game we beat Georgia 2-1 when Craig Beattie scuffed one in off his thigh.

Not old enough to remember ‘78 but wasn’t it the case that Holland just needed to avoid losing by 3 goals? So they maybe weren’t treating it like a normal game.

I’ve always thought our best result in a tournament was bouncing back from losing to Costa Rica by beating a good Sweden side 2-1 in ‘90. That Sweden side knocked England out of the Euros 2 years later and got to the last 4 of World Cup in ‘94.

Switzerland in ‘96 would be up there if only we’d taken our chances….

Sweden also won England's qualifying group for Italia '90 and hadn't lost in two years before the finals.

I think we also once beat Latvia with a Neil McCann goal, which was scored if not in injury time then certainly very late in the game. 

[Toepoke]

16 hours ago, exile said:

Also would it count to call putting out Czechoslovakia to qualify for 1978 WC? They are not one of the traditional big guns but were reigning Europan champions at the time.

Though Serbia are hardly a 'top tier' nation, qualifying at their expense (away) was probably our best, most meaningful result in the 'results against better sides' in recent years.

I would say knocking out the European Champions absolutely was a major scalp, even if the Welsh helped us out there by taking points off them.

That Czechoslovakia team went on to finish 3rd at the next Euros in 1980 so clearly were a strong team for a few years.

Re the Serbia game, I'd also link it to Argentina 78 qualifying, as I think it was our biggest away win since Wales at Anfield in 77.

 

[exile]

14 hours ago, The Black Bra said:

As far as injury time winners, I also remember us getting that late, embarrassment-avoiding winner against Liechtenstein a few years ago, 

and McLeish’s first game we beat Georgia 2-1 when Craig Beattie scuffed one in off his thigh.

Not old enough to remember ‘78 but wasn’t it the case that Holland just needed to avoid losing by 3 goals? So they maybe weren’t treating it like a normal game.

I’ve always thought our best result in a tournament was bouncing back from losing to Costa Rica by beating a good Sweden side 2-1 in ‘90. That Sweden side knocked England out of the Euros 2 years later and got to the last 4 of World Cup in ‘94.

Switzerland in ‘96 would be up there if only we’d taken our chances….

Yes I remember the winner against Liechtenstein, just didn't know it was as late as injury time.

Yes Netherlands knew they just had to avoid losing by 3 goals but when Scotland went 3-1 up, the possibility was definitely on. But they pulled one back a few minites later and that was that.

Presumably Sweden were ranked higher, so it was a meaningful upset in that sense though ultimatley it was to no avail.

[exile]

48 minutes ago, Toepoke said:

I would say knocking out the European Champions absolutely was a major scalp, even if the Welsh helped us out there by taking points off them.

That Czechoslovakia team went on to finish 3rd at the next Euros in 1980 so clearly were a strong team for a few years.

Re the Serbia game, I'd also link it to Argentina 78 qualifying, as I think it was our biggest away win since Wales at Anfield in 77.

 

Of course in those days (77-78) we had more 'world class' players in more parts of the pitch. Still, it made our exit all the more agonising than recent years' disappointments.

[Bristolhibby]

It’s drawing with Israel and Austria that we need to convert into wins.

Beating the top team once does not qualify you for tournaments.

Going to places like Kazakstan, Macedonia and Georgia and coming back with 3 points does. 

[Texas Pete]

10 hours ago, Bristolhibby said:

It’s drawing with Israel and Austria that we need to convert into wins.

Beating the top team once does not qualify you for tournaments.

Going to places like Kazakstan, Macedonia and Georgia and coming back with 3 points does. 

Absolutely. 18 points can be enough for second place in a group of 6. As a third pot team that equates to beating the teams ranked below you home and away.

Picking up some points against the teams ranked above us would also help obviously but beating the teams we are better than gives you the foundation to push on and get to tournaments.

Easier said than done though as we have proved for many years.