League Reorganisation, Again…

[Scotty CTA]

5 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Sorry but yer kidding yourself if you think thats going to make a difference. 

I'm not.

Playing for 24 points against Celtic and Sevco, OR playing for 12 points against Celtic and Sevco AND 12 points against teams promoted from the Championship.

True or false...

Would teams like Aberdeen and Hibs set club record points totals in an 18 team league?

[Scotty CTA]

5 hours ago, Diamond Scot said:

Aberdeen and every other club benefit more from Old Firm away fans filling the stadium and the TV cash that goes with it.

So would the 6 teams promoted from the Championship benefit from Celtic and Sevco fans 'filling' their stadiums in an 18 team league?

[Diamond Scot]

3 hours ago, Scotty CTA said:

I could be wrong, but I think a bunch of things were lumped together, which included the gates being split 50/50.

There are fans that stay away from their home games when the Ugly Sisters come to town.

If it were up to me, I'd give Celtic and Sevco the same 900(?) seats at Pittodrie that they give us.

There's other teams' fans that sellout their away allocations, too.

The whole thing becomes a myth.

We were told that teams would go under without Sevco in the top tier, but attendances actually increased.

In what way?

The only time non old firm stadiums tend to sell out is when playing the old firm. Financially they bring lots to non old firm teams. Im no fan of the old firm or their fans but I believe to move forward we have to accept certain facts and try and work with or around them.

Thats why I believe a 14 team league with 6/8 split and 2 up, 2 down would be a good start. Theres a big incentive to get into top 6 however bottom 8 gets an extra cpl of games to compensate no extra old firm games. 2 up 2 down also makes it easier for sides to bounce back so going down wouldnt be such a catastrophy and maybe teams wouldnt be so scared to play some youth.

My reason for the scrapping the playoffs comes from my own experience and those of friends. I support Airdrie, used to go to all the games home and away however have largely lost interest. Every season there is at least 1 "big" side in League 1. Partick, Falkirk etc. A team coming down from the Championship who more often than not stay full time. So they are heavy heavy favs and at best we are then playing for a play off which is weighted towards 2nd bottom off league above, who again will have full time players etc. We are always 2 good to go down so within a few months of season we are just going through the motions. 

Its the same in League 2 aswell. Always a team that runs away with it. I believe 2 up 2 down keeps more teams interested for longer and levels the field somewhat over time.

[Scotty CTA]

36 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

The only time non old firm stadiums tend to sell out is when playing the old firm.

The Highland derbies sell out.

The Dundee derbies sell out.

The Edinburgh derbies sell out.

The Ayrshire derbies will sell out.

Aberdeen can sell out European games, and get very high attendances v Hearts, Hibs, and Dundee United.

44 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

Im no fan of the old firm or their fans but I believe to move forward we have to accept certain facts and try and work with or around them.

Around them. 

45 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

My reason for the scrapping the playoffs comes from my own experience and those of friends. I support Airdrie, used to go to all the games home and away however have largely lost interest. Every season there is at least 1 "big" side in League 1. Partick, Falkirk etc. A team coming down from the Championship who more often than not stay full time. So they are heavy heavy favs and at best we are then playing for a play off which is weighted towards 2nd bottom off league above, who again will have full time players etc. We are always 2 good to go down so within a few months of season we are just going through the motions. 

Its the same in League 2 aswell. Always a team that runs away with it. I believe 2 up 2 down keeps more teams interested for longer and levels the field somewhat over time.

Fair enough.

[kumnio]

8 hours ago, Diamond Scot said:

The only time non old firm stadiums tend to sell out is when playing the old firm. Financially they bring lots to non old firm teams. Im no fan of the old firm or their fans but I believe to move forward we have to accept certain facts and try and work with or around them.

Dundee make more money from Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs and Utd games than the bigot brothers. 

The last few years we were in the top flight, they weegies rarely sold out. Taking into consideration massive police and security costs, they aren’t the cash cow at the gate that they think they are. 

[thplinth]

What a laugh that Aberdeen and the others never overturned the old firm veto vote when they had the chance. They (very clearly) were happy to have it in existence and still are. 

Scottish football as a product is utter shit. Barry Hearn nailed it when he said all of the folk running it should be sacked. It is disgrace and you cant help feel it is not an accident. 

Why anyone tunes into watch a forgone conclusion every year is baffling to me. The idea of supporting any of the clubs party to this tedious annual fiasco we call a league is repellant at least to me and has been my whole life. Fuck that crap.

[Rolling hIlls]

13 hours ago, Scotty CTA said:

Yes, I already said that.

Who do you support?

Are you happy with the two horse race?

I won't accept that.

Recently in season 2018-19 Aberdeen played Sevco 6 times.

Aberdeen won in Glasgow 3 times and drew at home.

There'd be no point to participating if we actually believed it was futile to try and compete.

Aberdeen has big investors and came through the pandemic still debt free.

We have a new training ground.

We have a new philosophy, structure, and coaching team.

We have AberDNA.

We sold 2 of our players for record profits last season. 

We've strengthened. (Who else has?)

And we will (hopefully) have a brand new stadium in 3(?) years.

Things are looking good, and while a team outside of Celtic and Sevco winning the League might sound like pie in the sky stuff to others, I refuse to give up on that possibility.

Of course. Goes without saying.

I think you mean 'could'.

The league is sitting even just now.

I'll easily concede that it probably won't happen soon, but if Aberdeen continue to strengthen year on year, then I can dream.

I agree scotty. Aberdeen are debt free. They are also trophy  free. Unlike sevco but stand on kid 😀

[Rolling hIlls]

1 hour ago, thplinth said:

What a laugh that Aberdeen and the others never overturned the old firm veto vote when they had the chance. They (very clearly) were happy to have it in existence and still are. 

Scottish football as a product is utter shit. Barry Hearn nailed it when he said all of the folk running it should be sacked. It is disgrace and you cant help feel it is not an accident. 

Why anyone tunes into watch a forgone conclusion every year is baffling to me. The idea of supporting any of the clubs party to this tedious annual fiasco we call a league is repellant at least to me and has been my whole life. Fuck that crap.

Why are you on here? I have never seen a positive comment from you. St Johnstone won two cups last year. Rangers put celtictothe sword.  Aberdeen and hibs looking forward. But no you. Nothing but complaints about our game. Did you crack a smile at Xmas when you were a kid kid.

[Scotty CTA]

4 hours ago, kumnio said:

Dundee make more money from Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs and Utd games than the bigot brothers. 

The last few years we were in the top flight, they weegies rarely sold out. Taking into consideration massive police and security costs, they aren’t the cash cow at the gate that they think they are. 

Thank you!

4 hours ago, thplinth said:

What a laugh that Aberdeen and the others never overturned the old firm veto vote when they had the chance. They (very clearly) were happy to have it in existence and still are. 

What's the thinking?

[Stu101]

14 hours ago, thplinth said:

What a laugh that Aberdeen and the others never overturned the old firm veto vote when they had the chance. They (very clearly) were happy to have it in existence and still are.

As a fan of one of the old firm teams, its utter insanity that this never changed. Did Abderdeen ever give a competent reason why they voted with celtic? I cant understand why this made sense on any level.

[Scotty CTA]

The only thing I can think of is gate sharing.

Celtic (60,000) and Sevco (50,000) wouldn't want a 50/50 split on the gate (for obvious reasons).

Aberdeen would most likely be next (or close to it) on that list.

[mccaughey85]

On 7/1/2021 at 8:42 PM, Scotty CTA said:

I'm not.

Playing for 24 points against Celtic and Sevco, OR playing for 12 points against Celtic and Sevco AND 12 points against teams promoted from the Championship.

True or false...

Would teams like Aberdeen and Hibs set club record points totals in an 18 team league?

Well they might but I highly doubt it also rangers and celtic could get record points totals in an 18 team league as well. As I said hibs and Aberdeen barely string 5 or 6 wins against non old firm teams. Would they string enough wins together in an 18 team league to get closer to the old firm. I doubt they would. Rangers and celtic dominate so much due to their huge resources and money. It's got very little to do with the league being 12 teams. 

Only way aberdeen, hibs or hearts compete is if they get a good set of youngsters like hibs had in recent years and a big financial backer is willing to throw money down the drain for several years paying wages that allows the club to keep them. 

Thats the only way Scottish football changes dramatically in terms of breaking the old firm grip. Problem is no one is willing to invest enough serious money in non old firm clubs in order to change things. Maybe if Aberdeen could get some of the oil money they might get success again. 

[Mazda]

League Football in Scotland is almost done.

I think now 36 years & no sign of anyone else competing.

Reconstruction in the form of equality , not even considered. Nor will it be, as 2 teams control the vote,  & hangers on are happy to accept the crumbs. 
Fans are not willing though. This can be seen in the decline of crowds - before pandemic. Some grounds almost devoid of home fans. Which are only filled by the 2 vultures when they come scavenging.
Somewhat better areHibs/Hearts( for some unknown reason)  & the Dons to some extent - but lie about their attendances.

 Getting into Europe is the prize for the rest , all for the dubious pleasure of a few ties against teams whom Google search engines have a hard time finding.

[Scotty CTA]

2 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

 As I said hibs and Aberdeen barely string 5 or 6 wins against non old firm teams.

You don't think Aberdeen will do that this season?

3 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Would they string enough wins together in an 18 team league to get closer to the old firm.

Playing 4 less league games against Celtic and Sevco, they would, yes.

3 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Rangers and celtic dominate so much due to their huge resources and money.

Of course, but they can hit snags. 

Sevco in particular aren't (and never have been) well run.

3 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Only way aberdeen, hibs or hearts compete is if they get a good set of youngsters like hibs had in recent years and a big financial backer is willing to throw money down the drain for several years paying wages that allows the club to keep them. 

I agree the planets would have to line up.

[mccaughey85]

14 minutes ago, Scotty CTA said:

You don't think Aberdeen will do that this season?

Playing 4 less league games against Celtic and Sevco, they would, yes.

Of course, but they can hit snags. 

Sevco in particular aren't (and never have been) well run.

I agree the planets would have to line up.

No I don't think Aberdeen will string 5 or 6 wins together, neither will hibs or any other non old firm team. They couldn't manage that last season and rarely does a non old firm team string together a run that might get them near the old firm. All that would happen in an 18 team league is the old firm have an extra 6 teams to pump while your non old firm teams still take points off each other like they always do resulting in the same massive gap. You might get the slightest of improvements due to less games v the old firm but your kidding yourself if you think it would change things enough to get anywhere near the old firm. 

[Scotty CTA]

4 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

No I don't think Aberdeen will string 5 or 6 wins together...

I'll bet you that Aberdeen will win 5 consecutive non and/or including Celtic/Sevco games in 2021-22 (and that's in a 12 team league).

Take 2015-16 for example...

Aberdeen won their first 8 games of the season (including a 2-1 win over Celtic).

Aberdeen then went on a 12 game undefeated run (9W 3D) after that from November 7th, 2015 to February 6th, 2016 which included another 2-1 win over Celtic.

So, it can be done.

Celtic finished 15 points ahead of us that season, however, a combination of playing basically the same players all season and giving youth a chance (in what amounted to nothing games) post split saw us lose 5 of our last 6 games.

4 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

You might get the slightest of improvements due to less games v the old firm but your kidding yourself if you think it would change things enough to get anywhere near the old firm. 

Well, Aberdeen split Celtic and Sevco in both 2016-17 and 2017-18, and both of their budgets dwarfed ours.

[Rolling hIlls]

Scotty. Rangers have never been well run???? 55 and counting kid.

[Rolling hIlls]

Sorry Scotty. I know you are a financial expert on all aspect of rangers. Including your assertions for the last few years that they would be bankrupt. Well, we are champions again and money is not a problem. Millions from CL coming and a few bucks from sale of players. But hey ho. You are the expert in all things Rangers. Stand on.

[mccaughey85]

16 hours ago, Scotty CTA said:

I'll bet you that Aberdeen will win 5 consecutive non and/or including Celtic/Sevco games in 2021-22 (and that's in a 12 team league).

Take 2015-16 for example...

Aberdeen won their first 8 games of the season (including a 2-1 win over Celtic).

Aberdeen then went on a 12 game undefeated run (9W 3D) after that from November 7th, 2015 to February 6th, 2016 which included another 2-1 win over Celtic.

So, it can be done.

Celtic finished 15 points ahead of us that season, however, a combination of playing basically the same players all season and giving youth a chance (in what amounted to nothing games) post split saw us lose 5 of our last 6 games.

Well, Aberdeen split Celtic and Sevco in both 2016-17 and 2017-18, and both of their budgets dwarfed ours.

I said it rarely happens, the fact your harking back to 5 years when rangers werent in the league shows how rarely it happens. Hearts also had a great run under burley in the noughties but then got sacked when they looked like they could challenge. I know it can be done but it's once in a blue moon which is not enough to really change things and have a third team challenging regularly.

When rangers were out of the top flight there was a chance for a non old firm to get a foothold and change the landscape of Scottish football but that chance went down the drain as soon as rangers got back into the top flight. Yeh Aberdeen split the old firm in 16-17 and 17-18 but it was obvious that rangers were rebuilding and getting themselves settled in the top flight. Every man and their dog knew that eventually rangers would regain their regular position of 2nd or 1st. The facts are that no non old firm has won the league since 1985 and thats with rangers going bankrupt and having to start at the bottom of the league set up. 

I am not really wanting to bet but we can bump this thread at the end of the season and see who was right. I reckon Aberdeen might win 5 games in a row but it's not likely they win 6 or more in a row and I am also reckon they don't get within 15 points of the title winners. Sadly its just the way it is and no league restructuring will change this. 

 

[Diamond Scot]

Rather than trying to change the setup to try and engineer another league winner (which I dont think is possible under any format atm), id rather we created a list of goals and constraints and then worked out a way to best reach those goals.

For me id create a breakaway top 2 leagues, exclusively for full time clubs and then set certain criteria that is a requirement for membership.

Ie, must have a youth academy, must invest a certain percentage of turnover on the academy. If all clubs were required to do this then it would take away the problem of 1 team investing in youth which is long term but then getting relegated because others invest in short term journeymen.

Id have at least 2 up, 2 down but crucially the prize money / tv money for top of championship to bottom of premiership would be closer, doing away with the fear of dropping out the top flight and financial uncertainty.

The issue with this is that its somewhat of a closed shop with no relegation from Championship however I dont see what benefit part time clubs give to the national team which is my priority. Part time teams would then have their own league which would be much more competitive as would be a level playing field. Any team could also apply join the top league if they accepted the criteria.

[Scotty CTA]

7 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

I said it rarely happens, the fact your harking back to 5 years when rangers werent in the league shows how rarely it happens.

Sevco weren't in the league because the former entity financially self-imploded, however, Celtic were in the League and we split the points. 

7 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

 ...but it was obvious that rangers were rebuilding and getting themselves settled in the top flight.

Or more accurately, Sevco threw everything and the kitchen sink at a last roll of the dice (and Celtic helped them).

7 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

...and thats with rangers going bankrupt and having to start at the bottom of the league set up. 

Rangers were liquidated and a brand new entity was voted into the 4th tier by 29-1.

7 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

 I reckon Aberdeen might win 5 games in a row...

[mccaughey85]

45 minutes ago, Scotty CTA said:

Sevco weren't in the league because the former entity financially self-imploded, however, Celtic were in the League and we split the points. 

Or more accurately, Sevco threw everything and the kitchen sink at a last roll of the dice (and Celtic helped them).

Rangers were liquidated and a brand new entity was voted into the 4th tier by 29-1.

Lol I am not trying to rain on your parade buddy. I just don't share your optimism. 

[Scotty CTA]

13 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Lol I am not trying to rain on your parade buddy. I just don't share your optimism. 

My hope is all I have.

[Brassrubber]

Ban plastic pitches from next year in premier 

[KirkieRobRoy]

On 7/2/2021 at 12:40 AM, Diamond Scot said:

The only time non old firm stadiums tend to sell out is when playing the old firm. Financially they bring lots to non old firm teams.

And home fans stay away in greater numbers as 1) It's a hugely unpleasant experience and 2) They are likely to get humped. And the policing costs are greater as well.

 

I get really fed up with eedjits trying to maintain that the evil twins are some sort of largesse-sprinkling benefactors to poor wee diddy teams. They run the game through their chums at Hampden to keep wee diddy teams down, more like.