Clarke committed to Scotland

[Bobby Russell's Lovechild]

6 hours ago, jailender said:

No matter who the manager is - "you can only pish with the cock you've got"

I don't necessarily believe that (if you mean the quality of player we have). Wales have an aging Bale (who was pretty useless at Spurs) and an aging Ramsey. Are they any better now than Robertson, Tierney, McGinn? Look at the rest of the Wales squad, are they light years better than what we have? Yet they find themselves at the knockout stages yet again. If you have a manager who has a plan b and makes changes when even the supporters can see things aren't going to plan, before they actually go wrong, we'd have half a chance of being there too. We did well against England, but if we went 1-0, would Clarke know what to do?

[Mickey The Brave]

41 minutes ago, Bobby Russell's Lovechild said:

Yeah, don't get me wrong, Denmark are a good team, but if you were to pick a group yourself that would probably give you the greatest chance of qualifying, this wouldn't be far off it. I still think we'll fuck it up

Our current level is that we’re probably somewhere around the 25th to 30th best team in Europe. There are only 13 places available at the finals. So, you’re right, even with the ideal draw, which this probably is, it should still be an unlikely scenario for us to qualify. We can’t expect to qualify for World Cups as things stand, we need to set our sights on smaller, more gradual progress, and goals that are more long-term than that. It amazes me how many of our supporters still draw the success/failure line at qualification/non-qualification, as unfortunately, we slipped away from that being a relevant benchmark a long time ago.

(Obviously, for European Championships, with 24 teams, qualification is a much more realistic target for us, and maybe future World Cups, depending on how many extra European places there are, when the tournament increases to 48 teams.)

[Toepoke]

39 minutes ago, Mickey The Brave said:

(Obviously, for European Championships, with 24 teams, qualification is a much more realistic target for us, and maybe future World Cups, depending on how many extra European places there are, when the tournament increases to 48 teams.)

There will be 16 places for Europe...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2026_FIFA_World_Cup

 

[Mickey The Brave]

19 minutes ago, Toepoke said:

There will be 16 places for Europe...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2026_FIFA_World_Cup

 

Ok thanks - I didn’t realise that had already been decided. We’ve got a lot of work to do to get to that sort of level.

Just reading the structure now - that’s a bit disappointing if we will then have the European Championships and the World Cup, both being held with numbers of teams/structures that don’t really work. Three-team groups, with two teams progressing are a complete nonsense, something I assumed had been left behind a long time ago.

[Toepoke]

10 minutes ago, Mickey The Brave said:

Just reading the structure now - that’s a bit disappointing if we will then have the European Championships and the World Cup, both being held with numbers of teams/structures that don’t really work. Three-team groups, with two teams progressing are a complete nonsense, something I assumed had been left behind a long time ago.

It's a dreadful format. Why not have 12 groups of 4 with the best third place teams going through? As we've seen this week that makes for some great conclusions to the groups.

[ceudmilefailte]

1 hour ago, Mickey The Brave said:

Our current level is that we’re probably somewhere around the 25th to 30th best team in Europe. There are only 13 places available at the finals. So, you’re right, even with the ideal draw, which this probably is, it should still be an unlikely scenario for us to qualify. We can’t expect to qualify for World Cups as things stand, we need to set our sights on smaller, more gradual progress, and goals that are more long-term than that. It amazes me how many of our supporters still draw the success/failure line at qualification/non-qualification, as unfortunately, we slipped away from that being a relevant benchmark a long time ago.

(Obviously, for European Championships, with 24 teams, qualification is a much more realistic target for us, and maybe future World Cups, depending on how many extra European places there are, when the tournament increases to 48 teams.)

13 qualify, how many in total qualify or make the playoffs 18?,is that too much to hope for. 

[ceudmilefailte]

10 hours ago, kumnio said:

 

 

This whole, it is what it is, let’s be thankful of that is just pathetic. My partner beats me, but I can’t go, I hate my job, but I can’t go, my car doesn’t work, but I keep it, our manager fails, but it could get worse. Jesus Christ, buy a set of balls. 

They are all financial problems funnily enough. Time for me to retire to the attic. 

Edited June 26, 2021 by ceudmilefailte

[Toepoke]

14 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

13 qualify, how many in total qualify or make the playoffs 18?,is that too much to hope for. 

21 in total. 9 group winners, 12 teams in the play offs.

 

[Mickey The Brave]

30 minutes ago, Toepoke said:

It's a dreadful format. Why not have 12 groups of 4 with the best third place teams going through? As we've seen this week that makes for some great conclusions to the groups.

Different numbers of teams going through in different groups is a pretty sloppy way to do things as well though. 

[Mickey The Brave]

17 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

13 qualify, how many in total qualify or make the playoffs 18?,is that too much to hope for. 

10 winners, 10 runners-up, from the actual World Cup qualifiers. Top 20 teams in Europe, which is a bit above our level at the moment, but you’re right, with a kind draw like we have, you’d hope we’d have a shot, but that’s pretty much already gone with our results so far.

Even if we made the play-offs though, we’d still have little realistic chance of qualifying, as it’s only three teams out of the twelve play-off teams that make the finals - and there will be a lot of good teams in there, presumably with seeding as well, rather than the easy play-off route we were handed to the current European Championships.

[Toepoke]

29 minutes ago, Mickey The Brave said:

Different numbers of teams going through in different groups is a pretty sloppy way to do things as well though. 

It's not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than 2 qualifying from a group of 3!

 

[Toepoke]

48 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

13 qualify, how many in total qualify or make the playoffs 18?,is that too much to hope for. 

 

32 minutes ago, Toepoke said:

21 in total. 9 group winners, 12 teams in the play offs.

 

 

23 minutes ago, Mickey The Brave said:

10 winners, 10 runners-up, from the actual World Cup qualifiers. Top 20 teams in Europe, which is a bit above our level at the moment, but you’re right, with a kind draw like we have, you’d hope we’d have a shot, but that’s pretty much already gone with our results so far.

 

Right enough, I got the number of groups wrong, it's actually 22 teams when you factor in the Nations League play off qualified teams (one of whom is Austria, maybe that we demotivate them in the group?)

 

[darkbluegas]

It’s not overly complicated where we need to be. Back door qualifying is all well and good to give us the impetus to improve our rankings in the world but it’s not a long term plan.

Focus on World Ranking points is the only solution to ensuring seedings that will give us realistic chances of qualification for major tournaments.

We absolutely can’t drop below League B in the Nations League. Due to the allocation of places in major tournaments we have to be in the top 25 in FIFA Rankings for World Cups and 40 for the Euro’s. 
 

There will of course be the odd exception but that’s not a long term plan. 

It’s so hard to do but the manager needs to try and ignore the media hype and focus on the long term goal 

[Mickey The Brave]

59 minutes ago, Toepoke said:

 

 

 

Right enough, I got the number of groups wrong, it's actually 22 teams when you factor in the Nations League play off qualified teams (one of whom is Austria, maybe that we demotivate them in the group?)

 

Eh? What do you mean about Austria?

[Texas Pete]

4 hours ago, Bobby Russell's Lovechild said:

Yeah, don't get me wrong, Denmark are a good team, but if you were to pick a group yourself that would probably give you the greatest chance of qualifying, this wouldn't be far off it. I still think we'll fuck it up

We’ve already started to fuck it up so you may well be correct. 

[Toepoke]

16 minutes ago, Mickey The Brave said:

Eh? What do you mean about Austria?

If Austria finish lower than 2nd in our group they're almost guaranteed a play-off place after winning their Nations League group. 

A position we'd have been in too if we'd managed to beat Slovakia or Israel away 😖

 

[Mickey The Brave]

4 minutes ago, Toepoke said:

If Austria finish lower than 2nd in our group they're almost guaranteed a play-off place after winning their Nations League group. 

A position we'd have been in too if we'd managed to beat Slovakia or Israel away 😖

 

Ah, ok.

As mentioned earlier, I don’t think that play-off place would be much use to us, given the strength of teams that will be involved, and the fact that only one team out of every four in the play-offs will qualify for the finals.

Also, for similar reasons, that certainly won’t demotivate Austria from trying to win the qualifying group, and progress automatically, and also, second in the qualifying carries the chance of a home semi-final in the play-offs, whereas the two teams who qualify for the play-offs from the Nations League are guaranteed to be away from home, so that should be motivation enough in itself.

[thesaint]

4 hours ago, Bobby Russell's Lovechild said:

I don't necessarily believe that (if you mean the quality of player we have). Wales have an aging Bale (who was pretty useless at Spurs) and an aging Ramsey. Are they any better now than Robertson, Tierney, McGinn? Look at the rest of the Wales squad, are they light years better than what we have? Yet they find themselves at the knockout stages yet again. If you have a manager who has a plan b and makes changes when even the supporters can see things aren't going to plan, before they actually go wrong, we'd have half a chance of being there too. We did well against England, but if we went 1-0, would Clarke know what to do?

Spot on.Man for man,most of our starting 11 plays at a higher level than Wales players do.Clarke sets his team out to try not to lose,and if they lose a goal,he seems incapable of changing the players or the way we are playing.Absolutely no plan B,it seems to be we live or die by the original plan.Really don't understand that sort of thinking.Still can't get my head around after having watched us being bossed by Croatia in the first half,he didn't make positive changes .It was a must win game.Surely he couldn't have watched that first half and thought,hey what we did in the first half was going to be good enough to win the game.To be honest,if that was his thoughts,then we are in deep shit.

[ceudmilefailte]

38 minutes ago, Toepoke said:

If Austria finish lower than 2nd in our group they're almost guaranteed a play-off place after winning their Nations League group. 

A position we'd have been in too if we'd managed to beat Slovakia or Israel away 😖

 

All we have to do now is beat Denmark or Austria away............and some other stuff. 

I think myself and Pasta mick were the only people on here who put the  nations league abov the playoffs. 

[Mickey The Brave]

26 minutes ago, thesaint said:

Spot on.Man for man,most of our starting 11 plays at a higher level than Wales players do.Clarke sets his team out to try not to lose,and if they lose a goal,he seems incapable of changing the players or the way we are playing.Absolutely no plan B,it seems to be we live or die by the original plan.Really don't understand that sort of thinking.Still can't get my head around after having watched us being bossed by Croatia in the first half,he didn't make positive changes .It was a must win game.Surely he couldn't have watched that first half and thought,hey what we did in the first half was going to be good enough to win the game.To be honest,if that was his thoughts,then we are in deep shit.

Surely the fact that Bale and Ramsey play in much more advanced and influential positions than our star players, has to have a major bearing as well though? We’ve ended up with two amazing left-backs, which is firstly a nightmare to try and fit them both in the team, and probably one of the main reasons that we’re now tied to the formation that we are, and secondly, left-back is not a position that is going to change the outcome of very many football matches.

[Texas Pete]

2 hours ago, Mickey The Brave said:

Surely the fact that Bale and Ramsey play in much more advanced and influential positions than our star players, has to have a major bearing as well though? We’ve ended up with two amazing left-backs, which is firstly a nightmare to try and fit them both in the team, and probably one of the main reasons that we’re now tied to the formation that we are, and secondly, left-back is not a position that is going to change the outcome of very many football matches.

Especially if neither of them play at left back. 

[Mickey The Brave]

3 minutes ago, Texas Pete said:

Especially if neither of them play at left back. 

I think that’s part of the problem. We’re tied to a formation that kind of has both of them sort of half playing at left back, rather than one of them at left back, and one out of position. Whatever we do, there’s no real solution to the conundrum. Personally, I hate a back three, so I’d have one of them at right back in a back four, but Clarke’s solution is just as valid, particularly as I think it matches Tierney to his position at Arsenal?

[Texas Pete]

9 minutes ago, Mickey The Brave said:

I think that’s part of the problem. We’re tied to a formation that kind of has both of them sort of half playing at left back, rather than one of them at left back, and one out of position. Whatever we do, there’s no real solution to the conundrum. Personally, I hate a back three, so I’d have one of them at right back in a back four, but Clarke’s solution is just as valid, particularly as I think it matches Tierney to his position at Arsenal?

Yes, that’s what I was getting at. 

As for Clarke’s “solution” being just as valid, I’m yet to be convinced. We rarely win any games (except against very weak opposition) using his formation. Even our playoff matches were both draws and the Nations Lesgue games we won were against a severely depleted Czech squad and a seriously out of form Slovakia side. 

Whether there is a better formation that would accommodate Robertson and Tierney is debatable but we’ll never know if Clarke doesn’t try one. 

[scotlad]

2 hours ago, Mickey The Brave said:

Surely the fact that Bale and Ramsey play in much more advanced and influential positions than our star players, has to have a major bearing as well though? We’ve ended up with two amazing left-backs, which is firstly a nightmare to try and fit them both in the team, and probably one of the main reasons that we’re now tied to the formation that we are, and secondly, left-back is not a position that is going to change the outcome of very many football matches.

Exactly. Comparing Bale and Ramsey with Robertson and Tierney isn't comparing apples with apples.  Bale and Ramsey are both excellent attacking players, superior to anyone we currently have in their positions. 

Bale may not burst past people with pace and power like he did a few years ago but he's still an excellent footballer.  Just look at Wales' first goal against Turkey, he and Ramsey combined brilliantly, just like you'd expect two players from Real Madrid and Juventus to.

[Mickey The Brave]

13 minutes ago, Texas Pete said:

Yes, that’s what I was getting at. 

As for Clarke’s “solution” being just as valid, I’m yet to be convinced. We rarely win any games (except against very weak opposition) using his formation. Even our playoff matches were both draws and the Nations Lesgue games we won were against a severely depleted Czech squad and a seriously out of form Slovakia side. 

Whether there is a better formation that would accommodate Robertson and Tierney is debatable but we’ll never know if Clarke doesn’t try one. 

I think that might be down to the players that we have at our disposal, rather than the formation. As has been the case for decades now, we are a team with a solid midfield, and pretty poor in defence, and both in terms of creativity and goal scoring, in attack. That’s always going to lend itself to being solid, and trying to make ourselves difficult to beat, and therefore as a consequence, more draws. If we tried to open up and be more expansive, I don’t think we’d have the quality at either end of the pitch - more so in attack - to back up that sort of style of play. Unfortunate, limiting and frustrating, but a reality.