Season 21/22

[vanderark14]

11 hours ago, Fairbairn said:

If it’s the game I’m thinking if I remember it as I remember Levein doing his dinger in an interview after it. I was at the game though have to admit with the passing of time I don’t really remember the specific incidents. However McCurry was still refereeing the season after which surely calls in to question the veracity of Levein’s version of events around McCurry being “given” the game and the reasons for it (assuming that is the game he’s referring to). 

here is the interview and some highlights of the incidents. Mccurry was a terrible referee, I remember another game at ibrox where Aberdeen ended up making their first ever complaint about a referee. 

One of the problems in Scotland throughout the media and fans is we attack the individual and not the problem. Levein loses it completely but he was ridiculed for it, what should've happened was a total overhaul of the referee system where you must declare who you support before you apply for a job.............................but then again as this is scotland we will all of sudden have an abundance of Killie or St Mirren supporting referees. 

 

 

[dipped flake]

In England they have to declare any club allegiance and they aren't allowed to referee that clubs games. As most referees are west coast it would be a lot harder to do that here. Of course the reason most refs are from the weegie heartland should be looked into but it never will

[vanderark14]

4 minutes ago, Fairbairn said:

Only if your calling the integrity of the referees in to question. It’s a bit like saying Man City shouldn’t play Jack Grealish against Villa as he won’t try as hard. 
 

I genuinely don’t believe we have any refs who are bent, cheats or biased. We just have a significant number who are not very good at their job. We also have a culture up here where every mistake is scrutinised to the nth degree with people desperate for the reasoning to have a more sinister meaning. 

Disagree, there is a reason England ask which teams the refs support - to ensure the game is as close to absolute fairness as possible. I agree re the culture in scotland but thats not any different to england, why give anyone the excuse to look for a conspiracy or sinister meaning? Any time beaton referees a rangers game, his integrity will be called into question

If grealish put in a suspect performance against Villa, he would be subbed and never forgiven by his team mates or Man City fans, he would be jeopardising lucrative deals too. A referee in Scotland is hardly the same.

[Redz]

33 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

I would have thought that every ref would have been a supporter of one team or another at some point in their life?

Agreed

Make that known from the outset and they never touch their games

Very simple

[Barney Rubble]

11 hours ago, Fairbairn said:

If it’s the game I’m thinking if I remember it as I remember Levein doing his dinger in an interview after it. I was at the game though have to admit with the passing of time I don’t really remember the specific incidents. However McCurry was still refereeing the season after which surely calls in to question the veracity of Levein’s version of events around McCurry being “given” the game and the reasons for it (assuming that is the game he’s referring to). 

 

[Fairbairn]

28 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

Disagree, there is a reason England ask which teams the refs support - to ensure the game is as close to absolute fairness as possible. I agree re the culture in scotland but thats not any different to england, why give anyone the excuse to look for a conspiracy or sinister meaning? Any time beaton referees a rangers game, his integrity will be called into question

If grealish put in a suspect performance against Villa, he would be subbed and never forgiven by his team mates or Man City fans, he would be jeopardising lucrative deals too. A referee in Scotland is hardly the same.

I'll agree (if that's what your saying) that the issue lies with the system as opposed to the individual referees.  It's probably not a huge surprise that it's not run as well as it should be given the way the rest of our game is run.  I will say thought that the only reason I know what team any given ref supports (and funnily enough I only know of the ones that support Rangers) is that I read on here and social media etc when there is a contentious decision and opposing fans go digging.  I found Mick's comments above amusing that the ref in his game was over compensating.  So either refs are all cheating huns or they are over compensating.  Some might say there's a degree of paranoia in that logic (I'm aware it was a "friendly" game and not pro and probably tongue in cheek...) which I think is a massive problem with fans in this country.

[Orraloon]

18 minutes ago, Redz said:

Agreed

Make that known from the outset and they never touch their games

Very simple

Would it be ok for a Rangers supporter to ref a Celtic game? Or any other team challenging Rangers at the top of the league. It all starts to get a bit complicated as a lot of games will affect Rangers even if they aren't playing in it.

If they are as corrupt as some folk seem to think they are, the they wouldn't be adverse to claiming they are Gretna supporters or Chelsea. 

I don't think our Rangers, Celtic or Aberdeen etc, etc  supporting refs are corrupt. They just make a lot of mistakes. And cheating players and managers don't make their jobs any easier. And, neither do the rule makers who allow the cheats to prosper.

 

[Redz]

17 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Would it be ok for a Rangers supporter to ref a Celtic game? Or any other team challenging Rangers at the top of the league. It all starts to get a bit complicated as a lot of games will affect Rangers even if they aren't playing in it.

If they are as corrupt as some folk seem to think they are, the they wouldn't be adverse to claiming they are Gretna supporters or Chelsea. 

I don't think our Rangers, Celtic or Aberdeen etc, etc  supporting refs are corrupt. They just make a lot of mistakes. And cheating players and managers don't make their jobs any easier. And, neither do the rule makers who allow the cheats to prosper.

 

As long as it isn't their team directly is fine by me - However it shouldn't be overly difficult to 'manage' non direct refereeing appointments too

Your last sentence 100%

[slasher]

The only ref who isn't a fan of a particular club I know is Collum. Definitely a career ref, in it for the notoriety and an absolute oddball to boot. 

[Orraloon]

20 minutes ago, slasher said:

The only ref who isn't a fan of a particular club I know is Collum. Definitely a career ref, in it for the notoriety and an absolute oddball to boot. 

I thought he was a Tim? No?

[slasher]

25 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

I thought he was a Tim? No?

A 'tim' is a Celtic supporter. 

He's definitely not. 

[Orraloon]

1 minute ago, slasher said:

A 'tim' is a Celtic supporter. 

He's definitely not. 

He might be one of those over compensating tims we heard about earlier?

[slasher]

25 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

He might be one of those over compensating tims we heard about earlier?

He's not, I just explained 2 posts ago what he is. 

[Fairbairn]

I think with Collum people hear he's an RE teacher at a Catholic school and put 2+2 together and get 44 and it spreads from there.

[Orraloon]

45 minutes ago, slasher said:

He's not, I just explained 2 posts ago what he is. 

How do you know that he has never supported Celtic?

[aaid]

This works in England as you have a lot more clubs in the first place and even though there are some very big clubs, e.g. Man Utd they don't dominate the entire game in the same way as the old firm do.

In Scotland essentially something like a third of the football supporting population would claim to support Rangers, another third Celtic and the final third *all* the other clubs.

Not having Rangers supporting referees officiating Rangers games wouldn't be enough for people who buy into this nonsense, you'd also have to have a non-Celtic supporting official and vice versa.

I always think that people who are directly involved in football and who have a career in it, may also be fans but they are able to compartmentalise it.   I don't think any reasonable person who think that a player would throw a game he was playing in to ensure his "boyhood heroes" got a result.

It's one thing to question the competence of referees, in a lot of cases though, they're correctly interpreting laws that people don't like.

I don't believe for a second that any referee that would get into a position where they would be officiating in the SPFL would put any club allegiance in front of their own interests and careers to show bias.   They'd be found out straight away given the level of scrutiny and assessments that refs have.

It's a bit like someone who worked for a porridge manufacturer and who was a big Princes Park fan sticking a few extra sacks in for Hot Shot Hamish in the knowledge that if his boss found out he'd be sacked - you just wouldn't do it.

[slasher]

1 hour ago, Fairbairn said:

I think with Collum people hear he's an RE teacher at a Catholic school and put 2+2 together and get 44 and it spreads from there.

Correct. 

Although he's moved quite a way up the ladder since those days, one of the reasons his refereeing commitments have been scaled back a bit the last couple of years. 

48 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

How do you know that he has never supported Celtic?

I know several people who have worked closely with him over a number of years and some who still do. The only thing Willie has ever been a fan of is himself. 

[Orraloon]

4 minutes ago, slasher said:

 

I know several people who have worked closely with him over a number of years and some who still do. The only thing Willie has ever been a fan of is himself. 

Cheers.

I suppose he will always find it hard to shake off that "what school did you go to" thing. 😂

[Squirrelhumper]

20 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

I see levein has spoken about a rangers fan refereeing rangers games.its hardly an astonishing revelation though 

 

Happened with us 2nd last game of the season 97/98,

Bobby Tait was awarded the game as his last game as he chose Ibrox. 

He added on about 7 mins injury time and we scored in dying seconds to win 1-0. Not celebrated many goals like that, ended 10 in a row stone dead too and goal was right in front of the kIllie end. Was a great day but summed up Scottish football and the SFA. 

“We’re playing until Rangers score!” - Gers fan ref - Vital Rangers (vitalfootball.co.uk)

29 minds in....

 

 

[Squirrelhumper]

6 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

here is the interview and some highlights of the incidents. Mccurry was a terrible referee, I remember another game at ibrox where Aberdeen ended up making their first ever complaint about a referee. 

One of the problems in Scotland throughout the media and fans is we attack the individual and not the problem. Levein loses it completely but he was ridiculed for it, what should've happened was a total overhaul of the referee system where you must declare who you support before you apply for a job.............................but then again as this is scotland we will all of sudden have an abundance of Killie or St Mirren supporting referees. 

 

 

You've got some officials from the north......Douglas of Moray for starters. 

Only Killie supporting ref i know of is Greg Aitken,. 

[Squirrelhumper]

58 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Cheers.

I suppose he will always find it hard to shake off that "what school did you go to" thing. 😂

Herein lies the problem with Scotland. 

Go to a Catholic School and folk assume you support Celtic. I went to a Catholic school, so did a large % of my supporters bus and we all follow Killie everywhere. Was plenty non Celtic fans at my school, quite a few Rangers fans too but mostly Celtic/Killie.

[Diamond Scot]

2 hours ago, aaid said:

This works in England as you have a lot more clubs in the first place and even though there are some very big clubs, e.g. Man Utd they don't dominate the entire game in the same way as the old firm do.

In Scotland essentially something like a third of the football supporting population would claim to support Rangers, another third Celtic and the final third *all* the other clubs.

Not having Rangers supporting referees officiating Rangers games wouldn't be enough for people who buy into this nonsense, you'd also have to have a non-Celtic supporting official and vice versa.

I always think that people who are directly involved in football and who have a career in it, may also be fans but they are able to compartmentalise it.   I don't think any reasonable person who think that a player would throw a game he was playing in to ensure his "boyhood heroes" got a result.

It's one thing to question the competence of referees, in a lot of cases though, they're correctly interpreting laws that people don't like.

I don't believe for a second that any referee that would get into a position where they would be officiating in the SPFL would put any club allegiance in front of their own interests and careers to show bias.   They'd be found out straight away given the level of scrutiny and assessments that refs have.

It's a bit like someone who worked for a porridge manufacturer and who was a big Princes Park fan sticking a few extra sacks in for Hot Shot Hamish in the knowledge that if his boss found out he'd be sacked - you just wouldn't do it.

This is it in a nutshell. Its easy to do in England because not being able to ref Man Utd games wouldnt exclude you from reffing other big games or pretty much any cup final.

In Scotland a Rangers supporting ref wouldnt be allowed to ref any Rangers or Celtic game. Straight away that removes the biggest games in our domestic calender and probably about 50% of cup finals. If that ref has ambitions to ref in Europe and major comps how does he domestrate that he can perfrom at that level? By saying he has reffed an Edinburgh or Dundee derby?

I know a few refs. One of them reffered the team he supported in his very first spfl match. His dad was a season ticket holder in the stadium and he had been going to matches since he was a kid. He gave a pen against his team who lost. Its their job, you need to trust they will do it properly.

And as ppl have pointed out, what would stop the Rangers fan saying he was a Partick fan or an Airdrie fan etc. Would we then be looking up photos from their childhood when they wear football tops? If that was the case then im a Scotland supporting fraud as I had Italy strips, argentina strips etc etc

[vanderark14]

4 hours ago, aaid said:

This works in England as you have a lot more clubs in the first place and even though there are some very big clubs, e.g. Man Utd they don't dominate the entire game in the same way as the old firm do.

In Scotland essentially something like a third of the football supporting population would claim to support Rangers, another third Celtic and the final third *all* the other clubs.

Not having Rangers supporting referees officiating Rangers games wouldn't be enough for people who buy into this nonsense, you'd also have to have a non-Celtic supporting official and vice versa.

I always think that people who are directly involved in football and who have a career in it, may also be fans but they are able to compartmentalise it.   I don't think any reasonable person who think that a player would throw a game he was playing in to ensure his "boyhood heroes" got a result.

It's one thing to question the competence of referees, in a lot of cases though, they're correctly interpreting laws that people don't like.

I don't believe for a second that any referee that would get into a position where they would be officiating in the SPFL would put any club allegiance in front of their own interests and careers to show bias.   They'd be found out straight away given the level of scrutiny and assessments that refs have.

It's a bit like someone who worked for a porridge manufacturer and who was a big Princes Park fan sticking a few extra sacks in for Hot Shot Hamish in the knowledge that if his boss found out he'd be sacked - you just wouldn't do it.

 

You make a good point regarding the support but this doesn't mean the SFA should be getting as close to the english system as possible to guarantee fairness. If there is an opportunity to limit the amount of Hearts supporting referees refereeing Hearts matches, why not grab it? Same goes for any other clubs, not just hearts

I think its a little naïve to think refs will always remain impartial when refereeing their boyhood club.

What do you mean by the following? Not having Rangers supporting referees officiating Rangers games wouldn't be enough for people who buy into this nonsense. What nonsense are you referring to?

 

The

 

[aaid]

34 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

What do you mean by the following? Not having Rangers supporting referees officiating Rangers games wouldn't be enough for people who buy into this nonsense. What nonsense are you referring to?

The nonsense that referees, particularly senior ones, are biased towards teams they may support if they are officiating in games involving them.

I don’t buy it for a minute.

[slasher]

19 minutes ago, aaid said:

The nonsense that referees, particularly senior ones, are biased towards teams they may support if they are officiating in games involving them.

I don’t buy it for a minute.

All people are looking for is a bit of transparency yet people like you seem to be kicking and screaming against it for no real good reason I can see. 

The big flaw in your simplistic argument is that 50% of refereeing comes down to interpretation. It's frankly ridiculous to suggest that a referee couldn't be influenced perhaps even unintentionally by where their sympathies lie. You're also completely dismissing human nature which is again frankly ridiculous.