exile Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 I was just thiking how different tournaments might be compared in terms of performances, and wondering if they could be ranked and if so, where might Euro 2020 come. What would be a 'good' tournament for Scotland? Chronologically Tournament - Results - Goals - (Highs & lows). (Goals against and elimination go without saying) 74 - WDD 3 goals (GD + 2) (Unbeaten; drew with Brazil.) 78 - WDL 5 goals (GD -1) (Archie Gemmill goal. Willie Johnston sent home.) 82 - WDL 8 goals (GD 0) (David Narey goal. Goals against.) 86 - DLL 1 goal (GD -2) (Uruguay game.) 90 - WLL 2 goals (GD -1) 92 - WLL 3 goals (GD 0) (Top 8 finish.) 96 - WDL 1 goal (GD -1) 98 - DLL 2 goals (GD -4) Ranking them from best to worst (based on results then GD) would give: Tournament - Results - Goals - (Highs & lows). 74 - WDD 3 goals (GD + 2) (Unbeaten; drew with Brazil.) 82 - WDL 8 goals (GD 0) (David Narey goal.) 78 - WDL 5 goals (GD -1) (Archie Gemmill goal. Willie Johnston sent home.) 96 - WDL 1 goal (GD -1) 92 - WLL 3 goals (GD 0) (Top 8 finish.) 90 - WLL 2 goals (GD -1) 86 - DLL 1 goal (GD -2) (Uruguay game.) 98 - DLL 2 goals (GD -4) It's maybe a toss-up between the last two about which was worse. I went on GD in the end. The last game was agonising in each case, in different ways. In some ways 86 was a Group of Death scenario where there were no weak teams (except us) but 1998 was hardly that. So the question is, what might be a good tournament for Scotland? On an earlier thread I suggested one goal and one win. That's relative to recent history. Relative to the above history, WDL and a 0 goal difference would be a top half performance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mccaughey85 Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 i would be happy with just beating the czechs tbh, sounds a bit defeatist but if we get a tournament win and put in solid performances against croatia and england but narrowly miss out on going through to the next round then i would probably call it a successful tournament and it would be something to build on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 14 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said: i would be happy with just beating the czechs tbh, sounds a bit defeatist but if we get a tournament win and put in solid performances against croatia and england but narrowly miss out on going through to the next round then i would probably call it a successful tournament and it would be something to build on. Yes I'd agree with that. And it is quite conceivable that, should we beat the Czechs and Croatia beat them too in our final match both teams may be cagey and settle for a draw which would get us both through I would have thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 (edited) Pretty straightforward for me, if we reach the knockout rounds it's #1 on the list. Yes it might only mean reaching the last 16 which we've achieved before, but for the significance of finally getting that monkey off our back it would trump all our previous efforts IMO. Edited June 12, 2021 by Toepoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 Just now, Toepoke said: Pretty straightforward for me, if we reach the knockout rounds it's #1 on the list. Yes it might only mean reach the last 16 which we've achieved before, but for the significance of finally getting that monkey off our back it would trump all our previous efforts IMO. Definitely. The fact we'd still be in there battling whilst other teams were already at home is a totally alien experience to our national team at a major tournament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotlad Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 A good tournament would be to reach the knockout stages. An excellent tournament would be going beyond the second round. An okay tournament would be getting close to reaching the second round - maybe a solitary win or a couple of good, battling draws. A poor tournament would be finishing fourth in the group. A bad tournament would be losing every game. A dreadful tournament would be getting defeated heavily in every game - think RoI in 2012! The fact that we're at the finals at all is an achievement to be proud of itself though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Pete Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 2 hours ago, mccaughey85 said: i would be happy with just beating the czechs tbh, sounds a bit defeatist but if we get a tournament win and put in solid performances against croatia and england but narrowly miss out on going through to the next round then i would probably call it a successful tournament and it would be something to build on. You’d be happy with going out in the first round with two games at Hampden? I know we are the lowest ranked team in the group and may well go out but I won’t be happy about it if we do. Let’s be honest here - we will probably never have a better chance of getting out of a group. If we don’t do it this time we may never do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mccaughey85 Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 12 minutes ago, Texas Pete said: You’d be happy with going out in the first round with two games at Hampden? I know we are the lowest ranked team in the group and may well go out but I won’t be happy about it if we do. Let’s be honest here - we will probably never have a better chance of getting out of a group. If we don’t do it this time we may never do it. Obviously I want us to go through but if we beat the Czechs and at least give ourselves a chance of going through but we end up narrowly missing out then I would still consider that a successful tournament. We haven't won a lot of games at major tournaments so it would be good for us to at least get that under our belts first and then try and build on it. It's best to keep your expectations low in my experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Pete Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 24 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said: Obviously I want us to go through but if we beat the Czechs and at least give ourselves a chance of going through but we end up narrowly missing out then I would still consider that a successful tournament. We haven't won a lot of games at major tournaments so it would be good for us to at least get that under our belts first and then try and build on it. It's best to keep your expectations low in my experience. Good points but surely going out in the first round would not be successful? We may need to do very well to be successful but if we get eliminated in the first round it will pretty much be a failure for me. That doesn’t necessarily mean we will have done badly. If we narrowly lose to countries that are ranked higher than us then so be it but that certainly wouldn’t constitute success for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Pete Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 A good tournament for me would be 4 points and a place in the last 16. All we can really expect though is the team giving 100% in every game. If that’s not enough then there’s not much we can do about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted June 12, 2021 Author Share Posted June 12, 2021 Looking back, probably the closest we had to having a good tournament was 1974, which was a sort of glorious failure, If we beat Czech Republic and drew with England and Croatia and ended up on same points as the latter two but went out on goal difference or goals scored, it would not feel like a good tournament, just 'OK' and 'what might have been'. So I now think we'd need to qualify to make it properly 'good'. And to do that we'd probably have to at least win and score (the alternatives are too unlikely to bother with I think...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mccaughey85 Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 9 minutes ago, Texas Pete said: Good points but surely going out in the first round would not be successful? We may need to do very well to be successful but if we get eliminated in the first round it will pretty much be a failure for me. That doesn’t necessarily mean we will have done badly. If we narrowly lose to countries that are ranked higher than us then so be it but that certainly wouldn’t constitute success for me. Your basing success purely on getting out the groups. Why stop there, why not consider success to be winning the tournament. I have based success on much less than getting out the groups. I consider a win in the groups to be success even if we fail to qualify. I know its a low bar but considering our abilities and our past history it would still be a step in the right direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burj_Alba Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 Beating Czechs, point at Wembley, reaching last 16, either I second or one of the best third places and a good account of ourselves in last 16. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Pete Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 2 hours ago, mccaughey85 said: Your basing success purely on getting out the groups. Why stop there, why not consider success to be winning the tournament. I have based success on much less than getting out the groups. I consider a win in the groups to be success even if we fail to qualify. I know its a low bar but considering our abilities and our past history it would still be a step in the right direction. Getting out of the group would be the best we’ve ever done and would mean we have done better than our seeding would suggest we would do. That’s at least some sort of improvement and measure of success. If you consider failing to get out of the group a success then that’s up to you but I would say it wasn’t a successful tournament even if we manage to beat the Czechs. We are not there to make up the numbers and I doubt the players or manager will be happy if we get eliminated at the first hurdle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Third Lanark Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 8 hours ago, Toepoke said: Pretty straightforward for me, if we reach the knockout rounds it's #1 on the list. Yes it might only mean reaching the last 16 which we've achieved before, but for the significance of finally getting that monkey off our back it would trump all our previous efforts IMO. When was that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor1996 Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 Getting out of the group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 21 minutes ago, Third Lanark said: When was that? 1974 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 1954 and 1958. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceudmilefailte Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 11 minutes ago, Orraloon said: 1954 and 1958. Blanked out 78......probably for the best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Third Lanark said: When was that? Reached the last 8 in 1992. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debian Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 Getting out the groups will be a start but I can't see us not getting to the last 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Pete Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 2 hours ago, Taylor1996 said: Getting out of the group. I agree with you. Has this ever happened before? 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Pete Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Toepoke said: Reached the last 8 in 1992. It’s not really the same thing though is it? Our qualifying group wasn’t the hardest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Third Lanark Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 12 hours ago, Orraloon said: 1974 ? We didn't get out the group stage, though we were undefeated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 10 hours ago, Texas Pete said: It’s not really the same thing though is it? Our qualifying group wasn’t the hardest. It absolutely isn't which was my point. Hence why I think reaching the last 16 of these Euros would be a greater achievement than qualifying for a 16 team tournament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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