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6 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

This is pretty much how I see it.

 

What is sad about this debate is the way that the extremists seem to have taken over.  I'm not sure it's fair to accuse Cherry or other gender critical folk of 'hating' transpeople and as far as I understand she's not talking about taking away anyone's existing rights. She along with others have concerns and they don't seem to have been adequately addressed. The way to deal with gender critical folk is to address their fears not just call them bigots or transphobes or whatever. 

 

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New council for us here, Tories kicked out for the first time since 2005.   In 2015, they had 54 out of 57 seats.  They now have 7 out of 41.   I wouldn’t read too much into it as I think it’s mostly down to local issues and the local party rather than national.

Lets see what the Lib Dem’s can do now.

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21 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

What is sad about this debate is the way that the extremists seem to have taken over.  I'm not sure it's fair to accuse Cherry or other gender critical folk of 'hating' transpeople and as far as I understand she's not talking about taking away anyone's existing rights. She along with others have concerns and they don't seem to have been adequately addressed. The way to deal with gender critical folk is to address their fears not just call them bigots or transphobes or whatever. 

 

I agree, "hate" seems to be the default for fowk these days. I've been looking at the Joanna Cherry thing over the last few days, she's certainly NOT trans phobic, the problem with this particular argument over The Stand is that the one's supporting the venue's stance are not prepared to listen to Ms Cherry's stance on this because they see her as Gender Critical, which in my opinion pishes all over THEIR argument. I think what she's saying about self ID is sensible and is about protecting people rather than discriminating against others. 

But then I'm a guy, with a cock, so it's probably none of my business. 

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1 hour ago, Bzzzz said:

I agree, "hate" seems to be the default for fowk these days. I've been looking at the Joanna Cherry thing over the last few days, she's certainly NOT trans phobic, the problem with this particular argument over The Stand is that the one's supporting the venue's stance are not prepared to listen to Ms Cherry's stance on this because they see her as Gender Critical, which in my opinion pishes all over THEIR argument. I think what she's saying about self ID is sensible and is about protecting people rather than discriminating against others. 

But then I'm a guy, with a cock, so it's probably none of my business. 

Too many people too quick to hate or accuse others of hating, too few folk willing to listen.

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On 5/3/2023 at 11:00 PM, kumnio said:

While I don't agree with a lot of what Joanna Cherry says, the treatment that she receives is pathetic. Unless I've missed some stuff, which is very possible, she isn't a dangerous figure, she doesn't spout vile opinions, or attack people.

The way that some react to her, you'd think she was a modern day Rose West.

She has an opinion that is probably in the majority of people in the UK, she isn't calling for genocide FFS.

It is almost as pathetic as the usual suspects rushing out to defend it at any possible opportunity. 

The bit in bold is bang on. 

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28 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

see Police are being told to shave their beards across Scotland.

Should go back to 6ft plus only and no Tattoos as well in my opinion!  😄

And bring back proper hats as well.  Going about with baseball caps half the time now..

 

 

I'd ban tattoos on everyone (except Lyndon Dykes)

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44 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

see Police are being told to shave their beards across Scotland.

Should go back to 6ft plus only and no Tattoos as well in my opinion!  😄

And bring back proper hats as well.  Going about with baseball caps half the time now..

 

 

I'd rather they told the ones that are 5 stone overweight to get fit. 

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Tories taking a pasting in councils across England, they've now lost 1000 seats.

Almost everywhere their councillors are being kicked out and replaced y Labour, Lib Dem and Greens. Tory gains as rare as hens teeth from what i can see (quick skim).

I see Lib Dems have gained Surrey Heath (Gove's manor). Too bad.

 

Edited by exile
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10 minutes ago, exile said:

Tories taking a pasting in councils across England, they've now lost 1000 seats.

Almost everywhere their councillors are being kicked out and replaced y Labour, Lib Dem and Greens. Tory gains as rare as hens teeth from what i can see (quick skim).

I see Lib Dems have gained Surrey Heath (Gove's manor). Too bad.

 

Labour broadly reported as the winners but the Greens particularly and Libs have proportionally done better than them in terms of % increase in seats.  An interesting sub-story - perhaps showing that a lot are still far from convinced with Labour. 

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8 minutes ago, AlfieMoon said:

Labour broadly reported as the winners but the Greens particularly and Libs have proportionally done better than them in terms of % increase in seats.  An interesting sub-story - perhaps showing that a lot are still far from convinced with Labour. 

That was what I took from it earlier in the day when it seemed Lib Dems were doing well. They always seem to do ok when there is a less than obvious favourite between the big 2 , indicating that Labour are not perhaps as much a shoo in as expected. 

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Yes and they're saying Greens doing well in rural areas. Speculation that there may be a few Tory switchers, who don't want to go Labour or LibDems.

I suppose the difference is, people can vote for them safely in local elections in England for some policy on bins or bike racks without the horrors of getting anywhere near actual Green government (!)

 

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42 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

That was what I took from it earlier in the day when it seemed Lib Dems were doing well. They always seem to do ok when there is a less than obvious favourite between the big 2 , indicating that Labour are not perhaps as much a shoo in as expected. 

The Lib Dems in my council area have traditionally been second to the Tories but a distant second at that.  Labour are nowhere.

The reason why they’ve won W&M is down to a few things.   First of all, there is a real antipathy to the Tories locally that I’ve never seen before in the 35 years I’ve lived here.   This is directed largely locally rather than nationally and has been caused by real objections to current and planned developments, combined with a general stench about the previous administration and real whiff of possible corruption.  The National picture doesn’t help but I think it was really all to do with what’s happening locally - and this has been coming for the last three years or so.

I don’t get the sense that for most people there was any real support for the Lib Dems, rather there it was more a massive “get the Tories out” exercise.   I wasn’t planning on voting at all but made a last minute decision along the lines of “they can’t be any worse” and voted LD - while holding my nose,

They also fought a smart campaign which just attacked the local Tories - not difficult - and appear to have done a behind closed doors deal with the local independent group that there would be certain wards where they wouldn’t stand against each other so as to not split the vote.

I’m not sure how this would translate to next year’s GE, Windsor could be problematic but I don’t see anyway that Theresa May loses her seat in Maidenhead. 

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59 minutes ago, exile said:

Yes and they're saying Greens doing well in rural areas. Speculation that there may be a few Tory switchers, who don't want to go Labour or LibDems.

I suppose the difference is, people can vote for them safely in local elections in England for some policy on bins or bike racks without the horrors of getting anywhere near actual Green government (!)

 

I think that what you see - particularly in local councils - is that when Greens get a foothold anywhere, people like them, they tend to stick and next time round they increase their share of votes and seats.   It’s obviously very difficult for them under FPTP at a GE and as you point out their policies at a local level are the sort of things that people like.

For all that the anti-green MacGammon lobby in Scotland hate them, I bet they increase their seats at the next election.  The first trans-woman councillor in England was elected yesterday in Brighton for the Greens.  I won’t post a picture of her at the count as it will trigger too many aneurysms.

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1 hour ago, exile said:

Yes and they're saying Greens doing well in rural areas. Speculation that there may be a few Tory switchers, who don't want to go Labour or LibDems.

I suppose the difference is, people can vote for them safely in local elections in England for some policy on bins or bike racks without the horrors of getting anywhere near actual Green government (!)

 

Cons to Green switchers seems far fetched.  
 

I would’ve taken a complete guess and Labour mopping up a lot of Tory votes due to the sheer incompetence and Starmer’s attempts to pull Labour to the right. That has probably pushed Lab voters, particularly Corbyn crowd to Greens. 

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5 minutes ago, AlfieMoon said:

Cons to Green switchers seems far fetched.  
 

I would’ve taken a complete guess and Labour mopping up a lot of Tory votes due to the sheer incompetence and Starmer’s attempts to pull Labour to the right. That has probably pushed Lab voters, particularly Corbyn crowd to Greens. 

It could be, probably must be a factor. But I thought some of the areas were places without that many Labour voters or Corbybites. The Greens won mid Suffolkcouncil and became the biggest party in East Hertfordshire. Not exactly red wall territory.

Or could be a turnout thing - Tories staying at homes and Greens getting the vote out.

But there must be the odd direct switcher - Zac Goldsmith or hug-a-husky types who are disillusioned with the not so grand old party, can't stomach their two main rivals so lend their vote to the greens for the time being.

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8 minutes ago, exile said:

It could be, probably must be a factor. But I thought some of the areas were places without that many Labour voters or Corbybites. The Greens won mid Suffolkcouncil and became the biggest party in East Hertfordshire. Not exactly red wall territory.

Or could be a turnout thing - Tories staying at homes and Greens getting the vote out.

But there must be the odd direct switcher - Zac Goldsmith or hug-a-husky types who are disillusioned with the not so grand old party, can't stomach their two main rivals so lend their vote to the greens for the time being.

You may be right. Can’t say I know anything about the geography’s or local issues.  
 

Possibly a bit of a generational change. Younger voters more interested in green and social issues rather than following the lead of voting who their parents have voted for. 

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6 minutes ago, AlfieMoon said:

You may be right. Can’t say I know anything about the geography’s or local issues.  
 

Possibly a bit of a generational change. Younger voters more interested in green and social issues rather than following the lead of voting who their parents have voted for. 

There are just so many Tory voters in the south east of England that there must be a fair few of them who just vote that way out of habit - like people used to do for Labour in central Scotland. These traditional Tory voters can't all be indelibly blue, Johnson/Truss/Sunak fans or Thatecherits or Brexiteers, just like many ex Labour voters in Scotland weren't all Bennites or socialists. People who just think they are the least worst of a bad bunch and run the council in an inoffensive way, the streets are clean, the rubbish is collected and so on. And those may be the types who could be amenable to casting their vote differently.

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21 minutes ago, exile said:

It could be, probably must be a factor. But I thought some of the areas were places without that many Labour voters or Corbybites. The Greens won mid Suffolkcouncil and became the biggest party in East Hertfordshire. Not exactly red wall territory.

 

They were the second largest party in 2019, so it’s not exactly a major shock.  Looks like the voting system is also multi-member wards under FPTP which promotes large swings in seats.  

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On 5/5/2023 at 2:23 PM, PapofGlencoe said:

see Police are being told to shave their beards across Scotland.

Should go back to 6ft plus only and no Tattoos as well in my opinion!  😄

And bring back proper hats as well.  Going about with baseball caps half the time now..

 

 

Agree about the beards, tattoos and hats. Just looks lazy. Can you imagine some guy with UJ's up his arms in a baseball cap trying to arrest you? it wouldn't go peacefully that's for sure.. 

 

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2 hours ago, Bzzzz said:

Agree about the beards, tattoos and hats. Just looks lazy. Can you imagine some guy with UJ's up his arms in a baseball cap trying to arrest you? it wouldn't go peacefully that's for sure.. 

 

Just UJ's?

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