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The midfield Is the problem


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4 minutes ago, Taylor1996 said:

But we're supposed to have three central midfielders as it is.

Look at the links I posted. To happen three times is absolutely incredible. 

For some reason we’ve went from a 3/5/2 to a 3/4/2/1 or a 3/4/1/2, with McGinn sitting up just behind the strikers. Obviously worked against the Faroes but against better opposition it’s probably better to go with an orthodox 3/5/2 and stop ourselves being overrun in midfield. 

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This is actually laughable. You do know the reason the ball went down the flanks and not through the middle is because that is exactly the tactics Steve Clarke used. It was by design to play this way.

(If you're the kind of person that hates freedom of speech or people that are opposed by different opinions, not not comment, as it'll just show you up as a snowflake. So, if you want to disagree then

Sarcasm? As this part was fun to read "The role of the two central midfielders wasn't to create, it was to protect" Yes. The midfield was at fault for all of our three goals and yet their ma

52 minutes ago, Scot1 said:

I’d like to see it, he is a grafter and has the technical abilities to do a job in the middle of the park. I’d happily sacrifice the Tierney/Robertson partnership down the left if he can stabilise and balance our midfield 

Can still play him down the left in front of Robertson. We are lucky to have such a player who adapts the way he does. Has been far and away our best player lately 

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Just now, Scot1 said:

For some reason we’ve went from a 3/5/2 to a 3/4/2/1 or a 3/4/1/2, with McGinn sitting up just behind the strikers. Obviously worked against the Faroes but against better opposition it’s probably better to go with an orthodox 3/5/2 and stop ourselves being overrun in midfield. 

Yep. Steve Clarke is trying to be fluid with the system, which is a good thing, as it means the only constant will be the three centre backs and 2 wing backs.

The fact that all three goals came from almost the same place would suggest that it's the midfielders to blame. None of them (apart from Jack) are defensively aware, but at least do the basics by closing down. It's simple fundamentals.

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9 minutes ago, prideothenorth said:

Can still play him down the left in front of Robertson. We are lucky to have such a player who adapts the way he does. Has been far and away our best player lately 

I’d like to see him play centrally and see if he can resolve some of the issues we have there

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34 minutes ago, Taylor1996 said:

Sarcasm?

As this part was fun to read "The role of the two central midfielders wasn't to create, it was to protect"

Yes. The midfield was at fault for all of our three goals and yet their main job was to protect. That cemented my point.

You and I were both specifically talking about the tactics for the Faroes game last night. So don't jump around your idiotic post 

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13 minutes ago, Taylor1996 said:

Yep. Steve Clarke is trying to be fluid with the system, which is a good thing, as it means the only constant will be the three centre backs and 2 wing backs.

The fact that all three goals came from almost the same place would suggest that it's the midfielders to blame. None of them (apart from Jack) are defensively aware, but at least do the basics by closing down. It's simple fundamentals.

I think we need 3 central midfielders against decent teams. Most teams play with 3 in the middle in some variation nowadays. Again this comes back to holding onto the ball and keeping possession. If McGinn is starting deeper in a fairly flat midfield 3, we need to be able to hold possession, work our way into the opposition halve and then allow McGinn to make late runs into the box. Trying to do to much too quickly by having McGinn starting behind the two strikers

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44 minutes ago, Taylor1996 said:

Sarcasm?

As this part was fun to read "The role of the two central midfielders wasn't to create, it was to protect"

Yes. The midfield was at fault for all of our three goals and yet their main job was to protect. That cemented my point.

I genuinely enjoyed bazmidd’s excellent analysis of last night’s match. In my view he got it spot on. After a decent performance let’s understand what went right rather than trying to shoehorn in unfounded and unnecessary criticism. Save that for the times we underperform. You won’t be short of opportunities.

Edited by breeks_mctavish
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11 minutes ago, Scot1 said:

I think we need 3 central midfielders against decent teams. Most teams play with 3 in the middle in some variation nowadays. Again this comes back to holding onto the ball and keeping possession. If McGinn is starting deeper in a fairly flat midfield 3, we need to be able to hold possession, work our way into the opposition halve and then allow McGinn to make late runs into the box. Trying to do to much too quickly by having McGinn starting behind the two strikers

Agreed.

We can talk actics and formations till we're blue In the face, though (and it feels like I have) but if the players aren't capable of taking responsibility and closing down their man, there is only so much progression.

Imagine Scott Brown in this team, or a prime Darren Fletcher. Those two would've closed down their man with urgency.. instead of letting him shoot or pass.

Edited by Taylor1996
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9 minutes ago, breeks_mctavish said:

I genuinely enjoyed bazmidd’s excellent analysis of last night’s match. In my view he got it spot on. After a decent performance let’s understand what went right rather than trying to shoehorn in unfounded and unnecessary criticism. Save that for the times we underperform. You won’t be short of opportunities.

I only read the part that I highlighted. Ususally, when a post begins with an insult, all won't bode well. 😛

Yes. The midfield are supposed to protect the back 3/5, like he said, but the very fact that they didn't last might or against Austria or Israel only solidifies my point.

My point was the midfield, in general, not just the one match.

Edited by Taylor1996
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1 hour ago, Taylor1996 said:

I only read the part that I highlighted. Ususally, when a post begins with an insult, all won't bode well. 😛

Yes. The midfield are supposed to protect the back 3/5, like he said, but the very fact that they didn't last might or against Austria or Israel only solidifies my point.

My point was the midfield, in general, not just the one match.

I thought your point was the Midfield wasn't creative....

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10 minutes ago, bazmidd said:

I thought your point was the Midfield wasn't creative....

"The Faroe Islands had two glories chances to score (one because Gordon fumbled). What would the mood be if it endes 4-2?

We keep saying that we're strong in midfield. I don't see it. Umpteen times none of the midfielders dropped off to give the defenders a passing option. Several times our midfielders backed off them, allowing them to shoot or cross."

Edited by Taylor1996
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I think Tierney position is a bit of a masterstroke by clarke as hes like a free role when we attack meaning no one picks him up and he gets into positions where hes 1on1 and his power and pace gets him by his man and cross into box. Mctominay is same on other side he has more time on ball and his forward passing is in the main excellent. I agree mcgregor and McLean for me they are too one footed but done ok last night. Gilmour and jack in there with mcginn and turnbull with Adam's up top is at this point now my preferred team. Loads of threats and loads of keepers of the ball. Cant wait for euros.

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1 hour ago, Taylor1996 said:

"The Faroe Islands had two glories chances to score (one because Gordon fumbled). What would the mood be if it endes 4-2?

We keep saying that we're strong in midfield. I don't see it. Umpteen times none of the midfielders dropped off to give the defenders a passing option. Several times our midfielders backed off them, allowing them to shoot or cross."

Why do you pick and choose your quotes, everyone has read the full opening post, you don't need to cut and paste parts of it to suit an argument. The post was aimed primarily at your worry surrounding all our creativity coming from wide and centre halves stepping out from the back and a lack of creativity from Midfield. To me that just lacks a basic understanding of football. The basic understanding that playing through Midfield is not the tactics we deployed, making it impossible to criticise the Midfield for a lack of creativity. The tactics v the Faroes were not to play through Midfield it was to play it wide get overlaps get it in the box and score. It worked brilliantly. We will aslo never go through a whole game and concede no chances whatsoever but still.. it never ended 4-2.. it was 4 nil. And what exactly were these glorious chances? A couple of long range efforts, in most games you take them all day long. If Marshall had been up to it v Austria and Israe lhe would have done better on both long range efforts we conceded from as well. Could the Midfield have done better at times at the job they had been given, cover defensively and close the space.. yeah the could have, they can be criticised for that. But what they can't be criticised for is not getting on the ball at every opportunity and creating chances, as this was not their job, so your opening post regarding Midfield creativity is nonsense

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4 minutes ago, bazmidd said:

Why do you pick and choose your quotes, everyone has read the full opening post, you don't need to cut and paste parts of it to suit an argument. The post was aimed primarily at your worry surrounding all our creativity coming from wide and centre halves stepping out from the back and a lack of creativity from Midfield. To me that just lacks a basic understanding of football. The basic understanding that playing through Midfield is not the tactics we deployed, making it impossible to criticise the Midfield for a lack of creativity. The tactics v the Faroes were not to play through Midfield it was to play it wide get overlaps get it in the box and score. It worked brilliantly. We will aslo never go through a whole game and concede no chances whatsoever but still.. it never ended 4-2.. it was 4 nil. And what exactly were these glorious chances? A couple of long range efforts, in most games you take them all day long. If Marshall had been up to it v Austria and Israe lhe would have done better on both long range efforts we conceded from as well. Could the Midfield have done better at times at the job they had been given, cover defensively and close the space.. yeah the could have, they can be criticised for that. But what they can't be criticised for is not getting on the ball at every opportunity and creating chances, as this was not their job, so your opening post regarding Midfield creativity is nonsense

I suggest you re-read my post and not allow the red mist to cloud your view.

My point was both defensively as well as offensively. 

And the fact that we had the ball either side of the park would suggest that the midfield three simply cannot control play and dictate tempo.

And the ball watching from midfield, if we do that against Austria and Denmark, not to mention Euro 2020. We will lose. We're playing with three center backs, there is no reason at all for our midfielders not to press high up.

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8 hours ago, Taylor1996 said:

I suggest you re-read my post and not allow the red mist to cloud your view.

My point was both defensively as well as offensively. 

And the fact that we had the ball either side of the park would suggest that the midfield three simply cannot control play and dictate tempo.

And the ball watching from midfield, if we do that against Austria and Denmark, not to mention Euro 2020. We will lose. We're playing with three center backs, there is no reason at all for our midfielders not to press high up.

Deary me

Firstly, I take both your points if you actually take the time to read my post you will read I acknowledge both points and agree with one not the other.

Secondly, and again just to reiterate, the fact we had the ball either side of the park instead of the middle, and wait for this one because it will genuinely blow your mind... Is a thing called tactics. So just to explain tactics are something that exist in football and other sports to exploit vulnerabilities in the opposition.. It was Clarke's plan to play down the flanks and exploit the opposition down there all along.. genius eh

Thirdly... You are correct we did play with 3 centre backs.. until such times as we actually didn't.. Again, that little word I used before, Tactics. Tierney was allowed to bomb forward and create overloads on the Left Wing position to set up two goals and McTominay was creating overloads in  Midfield to create new passing lanes. See when these 2 centre backs step out of position and we are left with 1 centre back do you think it is still advisable for all our Midfielders to press high up the park? Honestly man you don't have to agree with the tactics we used but at least understand them.

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, Scot1 said:

I’m looking at a couple of years down the line, when Paterson and Gilmour and Turnbull will hopefully be ready. Perhaps by then Nisbet will be playing at a higher level and will be the clear no 1 centre forward. As far as stating the obvious, I believe it was initially Taylor1996 who wanted Robertson in central midfield citing the Germans who moved their fullback into central midfield. I initially disagreed, and then after thinking about it, I said to Taylor, you’ve got the wrong fullback, this was months ago and I don’t remember anyone else wanting Tierney in central midfield. A few had suggested playing him in front of Robertson, wide left midfield. Don’t remember anyone else saying six months ago Tierney should be in the middle of the park. 

Yes your right it was Taylor who suggested Robertson playing in Midfield, i didn't like the idea but after some reflection thought the much more versatile Tierney could be worth a try in that key role. I'm pretty sure i posted a team with him in that position at the time.

 Tierney certainly has the strength, energy & game intelligence. Him & Jack together protecting or our centre backs  against sides that are strong & dangerous in that area could work really well. 

   For me Tierney technically he isn't a special player but in every other part of the game he is world class, could be our Roy Keane😊

     We would miss his pace at that back though, i wouldn't want to encourage or give our defenders any excuse to play any deeper. 

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32 minutes ago, theabsentee said:

Yes your right it was Taylor who suggested Robertson playing in Midfield, i didn't like the idea but after some reflection thought the much more versatile Tierney could be worth a try in that key role. I'm pretty sure i posted a team with him in that position at the time.

 Tierney certainly has the strength, energy & game intelligence. Him & Jack together protecting or our centre backs  against sides that are strong & dangerous in that area could work really well. 

   For me Tierney technically he isn't a special player but in every other part of the game he is world class, could be our Roy Keane😊

     We would miss his pace at that back though, i wouldn't want to encourage or give our defenders any excuse to play any deeper. 

McKenna is actually very fast should Tierney be relieved of his LCB duties. 

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38 minutes ago, theabsentee said:

Yes your right it was Taylor who suggested Robertson playing in Midfield, i didn't like the idea but after some reflection thought the much more versatile Tierney could be worth a try in that key role. I'm pretty sure i posted a team with him in that position at the time.

 Tierney certainly has the strength, energy & game intelligence. Him & Jack together protecting or our centre backs  against sides that are strong & dangerous in that area could work really well. 

   For me Tierney technically he isn't a special player but in every other part of the game he is world class, could be our Roy Keane😊

     We would miss his pace at that back though, i wouldn't want to encourage or give our defenders any excuse to play any deeper. 

Yeah. There was a time when I was pilloried in this place for my insistence that we play with a back three... that only lasted years. ;)

But yeah, I agree. We need a terrier in midfield, someone who is proactive and doesnt stand around ball watching, allowing the opposition time on the ball.

It happed more than a dozen times in the past three matches. We're lucky it only resulted in three goals.

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21 minutes ago, er yir macaroon said:

McKenna is actually very fast should Tierney be relieved of his LCB duties. 

Yeh i like McKenna, he was doing very well at Nottm Forest prior to his injury. Another good season at that level & he could be a premier league defender. 

    

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18 minutes ago, Taylor1996 said:

Yeah. There was a time when I was pilloried in this place for my insistence that we play with a back three... that only lasted years. ;)

But yeah, I agree. We need a terrier in midfield, someone who is proactive and doesnt stand around ball watching, allowing the opposition time on the ball.

It happed more than a dozen times in the past three matches. We're lucky it only resulted in three goals.

 

I would like to think we don't need that terrier type player in all games though having seen the amount of freedom/ space to shoot or cross we gave our recent opponents maybe sadly we do!

    Ryan Jack playing may have reduced those chances but against better teams i worry he won't be enough. 

   

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I agree we need a terrier in midfield. Maybe Tierney is the answer. A midfield 3 of Tierney, Gilmour and McTominay looks good on paper, I’d definitely like to see him tried there in the upcoming friendlies. As mentioned he’s proactive and I can see him initiating the “press” in the middle of the park. He would be the one that the others like McTominay would take their cue from. 
I also think that his lack of height in the Left Centre Half position is a problem and we will get caught out at some point. 
We have McKenna and Cooper who can both play there, both would do a job if called upon. Perhaps McKenna against bigger more physical forwards and Cooper against faster more technical players. I’d also like to see Gallagher back in the centre of the 3, we miss his height and pace. 

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Tierney is a world class attacking left back because he's so good going forward and also because he can hold his own defensively. Playing a loose left centre back role against a relatively weak side like the Faroes allowed him to show this off perfectly and he was involved in three goals and most of our good forward play.

Generally, we struggle to score goals and create chances, so playing Tierney as a defensive midfielder so that he can't use his attacking threat on the left flank is obviously the way to go.

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3 minutes ago, Scot1 said:

I agree we need a terrier in midfield. Maybe Tierney is the answer. A midfield 3 of Tierney, Gilmour and McTominay looks good on paper, I’d definitely like to see him tried there in the upcoming friendlies. As mentioned he’s proactive and I can see him initiating the “press” in the middle of the park. He would be the one that the others like McTominay would take their cue from. 
I also think that his lack of height in the Left Centre Half position is a problem and we will get caught out at some point. 
We have McKenna and Cooper who can both play there, both would do a job if called upon. Perhaps McKenna against bigger more physical forwards and Cooper against faster more technical players. I’d also like to see Gallagher back in the centre of the 3, we miss his height and pace. 

McKenna would demolish Cooper in a foot race. 

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5 minutes ago, wee-toon-red said:

Tierney is a world class attacking left back because he's so good going forward and also because he can hold his own defensively. Playing a loose left centre back role against a relatively weak side like the Faroes allowed him to show this off perfectly and he was involved in three goals and most of our good forward play.

Generally, we struggle to score goals and create chances, so playing Tierney as a defensive midfielder so that he can't use his attacking threat on the left flank is obviously the way to go.

Fortunately we have Robertson who isnt too bad an attacking left-back. Our midfield is a big problem at the moment. If moving Tierney there helps resolve some of these issues, I’d sacrifice his attacking down the left for a more stable, balanced midfield. He can also on occasion push forward from the middle of the park.

Edited by Scot1
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1 minute ago, er yir macaroon said:

McKenna would demolish Cooper in a foot race. 

I’m all for having McKenna at left-centre half, I’m sure my recent teams had him in there. And we also have Cooper who can play there if needed, decent competition 

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