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Why the gloom?


Big Ramy 1314

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26 minutes ago, Bristolhibby said:

TBF, if we accept first is blown, and we have a fight on our hands for second. We NEED Denmark to smash everyone (bar us) where we need to win at Hampden and possibly sneak a draw in Copenhagen.

The two away games in September will be massive!

J

I don't accept first is blown. At least not until we see tonight's results.

9 minutes ago, Archiesdad said:

A draw for Austria and Denmark tonight with a win for us puts us in second.

Austria will have drawn at home with a team ranked above them and drawn away with a team ranked below and beat Faroes. 

Same as us. 

So a draw Tonight and a wee 2-0 /3-0  win for us... 

Far from over....

I think we are capable of getting at least one positive result from Denmark, and maybe another draw against Austria. But I also think Austria, Israel and Denmark will all drop points against each other. We are too defeatist sometimes. Bad results don't only happen to Scotland (though it sometimes feels that way). Denmark may win every game, like other top seeded teams, but I really don't see that happening.

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8 minutes ago, Tartan blood said:

I don't accept first is blown. At least not until we see tonight's results.

I think we are capable of getting at least one positive result from Denmark, and maybe another draw against Austria. But I also think Austria, Israel and Denmark will all drop points against each other. We are too defeatist sometimes. Bad results don't only happen to Scotland (though it sometimes feels that way). Denmark may win every game, like other top seeded teams, but I really don't see that happening.

The best result for us tonight is a Denmark win. Denmark are a cut above Austria and cannot see them dropping too many points so there is a far better potential for us finishing second above Austria who I was not overly impressed with against us. A draw would not be a bad result either but it keeps Austria far more in the hunt and ratchets the pressure up on us later on to pick up better results than we are presently. A win for Austria would be the worst result for us I feel as Denmark are the better team and it will be a wake-up call for them for their next match in Copenhagen against us.

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12 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

The best result for us tonight is a Denmark win. Denmark are a cut above Austria and cannot see them dropping too many points so there is a far better potential for us finishing second above Austria who I was not overly impressed with against us. A draw would not be a bad result either but it keeps Austria far more in the hunt and ratchets the pressure up on us later on to pick up better results than we are presently. A win for Austria would be the worst result for us I feel as Denmark are the better team and it will be a wake-up call for them for their next match in Copenhagen against us.

I think an Austria-Denmark draw is better. I don’t accept Denmark will run away with it. If we have Gilmour and maybe Patterson integrated into the team and play at our best I don’t think it is beyond us to get 4 or 6 points off them. Of course that seems miles off after the Israel horror show, but that is why I’m still furious about it as we sold ourself short. If we play at our absolute best we can beat the teams in our group. That is no more than a country such as Wales would expect so we should be no different. We’ve made a complete arse of it so far, but that doesn’t mean it should continue. 

Edited by er yir macaroon
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2 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

The best result for us tonight is a Denmark win. Denmark are a cut above Austria and cannot see them dropping too many points so there is a far better potential for us finishing second above Austria who I was not overly impressed with against us. A draw would not be a bad result either but it keeps Austria far more in the hunt and ratchets the pressure up on us later on to pick up better results than we are presently. A win for Austria would be the worst result for us I feel as Denmark are the better team and it will be a wake-up call for them for their next match in Copenhagen against us.

Well a draw gives us a glimmer of hope, which I would like to cling onto. 

By the next round of matches, we should be an even better team, with tournament experience. I know the results don't necessarily reflect this yet, but our squad is getting stronger by the fortnight. We may be a different beast by September. Especially if we can integrate Gilmour, Turnbull, Gauld and (an in-form) Griffiths.

I know I'm being overly optimistic. But look how fast things have changed since Kazakhstan.

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52 minutes ago, Archiesdad said:

A draw for Austria and Denmark tonight with a win for us puts us in second.

Austria will have drawn at home with a team ranked above them and drawn away with a team ranked below and beat Faroes. 

Same as us. 

So a draw Tonight and a wee 2-0 /3-0  win for us... 

Far from over....

indeed. On paper. And then you watch us play.....

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How good are Denmark by the way? It seems like everyone has them down as superstars. They are nowhere near the quality of a Spain or France. They aren't a Belgium who suddenly have a brilliant crop of players playing at some of the best clubs in Europe. Why can't we beat this team and why can't we finish second. Ok we have had a poor first half performance but we still got something out the game. Other teams in this group will have bad games as well. Just of the top of my head, Schmeichel in goals, Ajaer from Celtic, Christian Eriksen, and some boy from Barcelona who only signed as an emergency loan when Barca had no other option. They are beatable

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2 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

I'm clearly in the minority but I still have faith in clarke and this squad of players. 

So do I, and look we might come up short, Denmark might just be a little better than us, but we should not be scared of them, and we certainly should not be scared of Austria over there. Looking back at Denmark's previous games they have had some good results but also some where it's been tight, I look at the second game they had v Iceland, Iceland first game played 4411 and got cuffed 3 nil, they went back to their 352 flat in Midfield. Denmark scraped a win in the last minute with a penalty, for me that's the blue print, they struggle more against that formation than any other, and we are better than Iceland now btw and have players that can hurt Denmark. Austria we should know how to beat them now, it is probably right between us and them but we are more than capable of beating them, with a bit of believe and attacking intent we can

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10 hours ago, scotlad said:

It might be our best squad since the 90s but I'm still not convinced it's good enough to qualify for a World Cup.  

None of our current batch of defenders (with the exception of Robertson and Tierney) or strikers would have made the France '98 squad - and that squad was regarded at the time as one of the weakest in the tournament and one of the weakest Scotland sides to have qualified for anything. 

In isolation a draw away to Israel is okay. If we'd won at home against Austria I don't think anyone would be too bothered by that result. 

To my mind, if you're a team that's serious about qualifying you have to win your home games.  In that respect the Austria result was the worse of the two.  But to be honest, when you look at the two teams on paper a draw isn't really that surprising a result.

That night, Austria fielded a side consisting mainly of German Bundesliga players. Half our team were EPL regulars (which is good) but the other half was a hotchpotch of English second tier players, a guy playing for a little-known club in Belgian, a guy playing for a bottom half SPFL club and an out-of-form Celtic player.

Don't get me wrong, that team still represents a significant improvement in quality compared to some Scotland sides I've seen, but I doubt most neutrals would have looked at it and expected it to beat the Austrians.

yeh i agree, i think i reality check is needed, to outsiders looking at our team and squad they would say the results pretty much match our ability squad wise. maybe we could do a bit better but when you have a championship centre back and a guy who plays for oostende starting matches then you are going to struggle to win this group. Looking at denmarks team they have quality players in every position. It sounds like i am being very negative but i am not, i believe we have some real quality and maybe even the best squad since the 90s but its still short of what we need in certain positions. 

Is Clarke going to lead us to the world cup? i very much doubt it but i also think that most realistic manager candidates would struggle to qualify as well.

We now need to pick up our performances and aim for 2nd place which is a tough but achievable goal.

Edited by mccaughey85
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2 hours ago, er yir macaroon said:

I think an Austria-Denmark draw is better. I don’t accept Denmark will run away with it. If we have Gilmour and maybe Patterson integrated into the team and play at our best I don’t think it is beyond us to get 4 or 6 points off them. Of course that seems miles off after the Israel horror show, but that is why I’m still furious about it as we sold ourself short. If we play at our absolute best we can beat the teams in our group. That is no more than a country such as Wales would expect so we should be no different. We’ve made a complete arse of it so far, but that doesn’t mean it should continue. 

The chances of us winning this group are nearly non existent and if thats the case then the next best option is 1 team running away with it. This means denmark dominating everyone bar us. 

Also gilmour and especially patterson are not transforming this side, whats needed is our so called top players like robertson,christie,mctominay etc putting in more match winning performances and clarke being a bit more positive regarding our mentality and tactics.

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1 hour ago, mccaughey85 said:

The chances of us winning this group are nearly non existent and if thats the case then the next best option is 1 team running away with it. This means denmark dominating everyone bar us. 

Also gilmour and especially patterson are not transforming this side, whats needed is our so called top players like robertson,christie,mctominay etc putting in more match winning performances and clarke being a bit more positive regarding our mentality and tactics.

I stated quite clearly we need play at our best. 

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5 minutes ago, er yir macaroon said:

I stated quite clearly we need play at our best. 

yeh to get second place. Even if we are at our best winning this group is still very unlikely unless we suddenly become a whole different side to the one we have been for the last 20 years.

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24 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

yeh to get second place. Even if we are at our best winning this group is still very unlikely unless we suddenly become a whole different side to the one we have been for the last 20 years.

It basically requires 4 points against each of Denmark, Austria and Israel. Not likely, and as I said I’m furious about it. Wales would fancy it though. 

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2 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

yeh i agree, i think i reality check is needed, to outsiders looking at our team and squad they would say the results pretty much match our ability squad wise. maybe we could do a bit better but when you have a championship centre back and a guy who plays for oostende starting matches then you are going to struggle to win this group. Looking at denmarks team they have quality players in every position. It sounds like i am being very negative but i am not, i believe we have some real quality and maybe even the best squad since the 90s but its still short of what we need in certain positions. 

Is Clarke going to lead us to the world cup? i very much doubt it but i also doubt that most realistic manager candidates would struggle to qualify as well.

We now need to pick up our performances and aim for 2nd place which is a tough but achievable goal.

Absolutely. We've no right to expect to beat sides like Austria and Denmark, although I think we are capable of it. With a bit more luck (or a better referee!) we could have won the game last week, but the draw wasn't an unfair result.

To qualify, you don't need a team of world beaters but you do need a strong spine; a sturdy defence, a reliable midfield and a proven goalscorer (preferably more than one). We have a good midfield but the quality just isn't there in defence or attack. Until that changes we're going to struggle to get to a World Cup, and anyone who thinks simply sticking Billy Gilmour into the side or changing manager - again - is going to make up for that is kidding himself on.

Edited by scotlad
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33 minutes ago, scotlad said:

Absolutely. We've no right to expect to beat sides like Austria and Denmark, although I think we are capable of it. With a bit more luck (or a better referee!) we could have won the game last week, but the draw wasn't an unfair result.

To qualify, you don't need a team of world beaters but you do need a strong spine; a sturdy defence, a reliable midfield and a proven goalscorer (preferably more than one). We have a good midfield but the quality just isn't there in defence or attack. Until that changes we're going to struggle to get to a World Cup, and anyone who thinks simply sticking Billy Gilmour into the side or changing manager - again - is going to make up for that is kidding himself on.

If we had peak Barry Ferguson alongside our other top EPL players we’d be on 6 points. It’s our failure to generate any sort of tempo that’s killing us. 

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49 minutes ago, er yir macaroon said:

It basically requires 4 points against each of Denmark, Austria and Israel. Not likely, and as I said I’m furious about it. Wales would fancy it though. 

4 points v denmark is never happening. even if it did denmark would still have to drop serious points against austria and israel. i think if we play to our potential we can get 2nd but its still a tough ask.

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8 minutes ago, er yir macaroon said:

If we had peak Barry Ferguson alongside our other top EPL players we’d be on 6 points. It’s our failure to generate any sort of tempo that’s killing us. 

hard to tell, barry ferguson wasnt any better than our midfield options today and he wouldnt have scored the goal mcginn scored. 

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26 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

hard to tell, barry ferguson wasnt any better than our midfield options today and he wouldnt have scored the goal mcginn scored. 

Ferguson would be the first name on the team sheet today. He dictated games, and none of our players seem able to do that, currently. The closest players to him in terms of style in the current squad are McGregor and Fleck and he was miles better than them. I’m hopeful Gilmour can give us similar, and by September he will have developed further physically. 

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6 hours ago, bazmidd said:

So do I, and look we might come up short, Denmark might just be a little better than us, but we should not be scared of them, and we certainly should not be scared of Austria over there. Looking back at Denmark's previous games they have had some good results but also some where it's been tight, I look at the second game they had v Iceland, Iceland first game played 4411 and got cuffed 3 nil, they went back to their 352 flat in Midfield. Denmark scraped a win in the last minute with a penalty, for me that's the blue print, they struggle more against that formation than any other, and we are better than Iceland now btw and have players that can hurt Denmark. Austria we should know how to beat them now, it is probably right between us and them but we are more than capable of beating them, with a bit of believe and attacking intent we can

I agree we shouldn't be afraid of DenmarkWe shouldn't have been afraid of Israel,but we were.That's the point I am trying to make.Play to WIN every match.Time to have some belief that the players we have ,can impose themselves on the opposition.Enough of this sitting off teams and letting them have so much 

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1 minute ago, thesaint said:

I agree we shouldn't be afraid of DenmarkWe shouldn't have been afraid of Israel,but we were.That's the point I am trying to make.Play to WIN every match.Time to have some belief that the players we have ,can impose themselves on the opposition.Enough of this sitting off teams and letting them have so much 

Possession that they can't help but make chances.(thought I would finish off my post)

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3 hours ago, er yir macaroon said:

Ferguson would be the first name on the team sheet today. He dictated games, and none of our players seem able to do that, currently. The closest players to him in terms of style in the current squad are McGregor and Fleck and he was miles better than them. I’m hopeful Gilmour can give us similar, and by September he will have developed further physically. 

i think your overrating ferguson quite alot. he didnt exactly achieve big things once he left his cushy life as a big fish in a small pond at rangers. i know they are different types of players but i would much rather our midfielders like mcgregor, mcginn, mctominay. ferguson was a good midfielder but he is overrated by many ppl in scotland.

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8 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

i think your overrating ferguson quite alot. he didnt exactly achieve big things once he left his cushy life as a big fish in a small pond at rangers. i know they are different types of players but i would much rather our midfielders like mcgregor, mcginn, mctominay. ferguson was a good midfielder but he is overrated by many ppl in scotland.

No, not having that. He was different class. He got a very bad knee injury at Blackburn (he was captain) at about 25 and was never quite as mobile afterwards, but before then he was dominating world class players in the Champions League. They couldn’t get near him and he set the tempo. My favourite player of the last 25 years. 

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