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Israel V Scotland


Caledonian Craig

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48 minutes ago, Return of Yermaw said:

Credit is due in waiting till half the game is over and we have conceded a goal before taking action to address something apparent from the first 15 mins? 

If far too many of our big players are consistently under-performing then perhaps it is less to do with individuals and more to do with tactics and how we are set up? Maybe something worth considering....

Agreed. McGinn McTominay and McGregor should be more than capable of holding the ball better than they did and have all showed it in previous games. Was definitely more to do with tactics, being outnumbered/outmanoeuvred in midfield (supposedly our strongest area) and not being able to adjust or command a game when it is obviously not going to plan. Too much emphasis on not trying to get beaten rather than trying to win - especially against a team that we really need to beat to be able to qualify.

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29 minutes ago, bazmidd said:

I'm kind of with you but then where does Tierney and Roberson play again? And I'm not sure we have good enough wide players to play a 451. Fraser is decent but we don't have much on the right. Maybe Armstrong or put Tierney Left Wing and Fraser Right Wing but Fraser isn't as effective there

Probably Forrest right, Fraser left. 

I think Tierney can play just about anywhere. If Robertson is still poor in a back four then Tierney should replace him at left back. If Robertson picks up form in his more natural role then Tierney could be tried at outside left midfield (stick Fraser on the right) or even in one as one of the central three midfielders. If we are not against giants he can also play left centre half (like in the second half last night). 

I just think we are rigid, and nervous with a back three. If it’s backs against the wall versus a real big gun then maybe, but I think we could be on 6 points if we’d gone with a formation our players can deal with. 

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Can't believe how badly we played last night.Our whole midfield had possibly their worst performances in a Scotland shirt,with Andy Robertson not far behind.The midfield was non existant.They just couldn't impose themselves on the game.The amount of time and space the Israel players had was criminal.Almost any team given that room to play,will eventually create chances.The thing that gets me ,is even when it's obviously going wrong,the players,never mind Clarke don't try to make a change to the system they are playing.They just keep playing the same way,until they lose a goal.As somebody said on the forum,Tierney is the only one with a football brain,and even he is struggled by having Robertson in front of him.We really could get so much more out of Tierney,he really is a game changer of allowed to play freely.Just ask the Arsenal fans how much more they create with him playing.Only O'Donnell,Tierney,Fraser and maybe Adams deserved landmarks last night.The second half was a bit better,but after we scored we sort of slipped back into our old ways.I must admit,I really thought we had maybe found a way to utilise the players we have,and with some good young talent coming through,there were signs of hope.Unfortunately,Clarke never included Gilmpur,Gauld or Turnbull in the squad for these wc qualifiers,and so it is very unlikely he would throw them straight into the Euros squad.The one hope we have is that the players will rise to the whole euro experience,and produce similar performances to the game in Serbia(which was excellent).Otherwise,if we play like we have in the last four games,it's going to be a horrible experience.Of course,I will,covid permitting follow them home and away,but it will be more with than expectation.SCOTLAND FOREVER.

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46 minutes ago, Tartan Chris said:

This is why it isn't over. Israel are a bloody decent team. We should all know that by now. I'm not excusing last night's performances, or the manager, but there is hope that Israel could take points off Austria. From what I heard, Denmark didn't exactly destroy them either.

The problem is that teams ranked above them do tend to squeeze out victories. Something we should absolutely be doing as well. But Israel are comfortably a 3rd seed quality team, not 4th.

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Israel were ranked 7th out of 10 teams in pot 4.

They would need to improve by 34 world ranking spots to be a third pot team, if they dropped 13 world ranking spots, they would be in the fifth pot. 

They most certainly are not a comfortable 3rd seed team quality. Our inability to beat them doesn’t make them good.

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24 minutes ago, thesaint said:

Can't believe how badly we played last night.Our whole midfield had possibly their worst performances in a Scotland shirt,with Andy Robertson not far behind.The midfield was non existant.They just couldn't impose themselves on the game.The amount of time and space the Israel players had was criminal.Almost any team given that room to play,will eventually create chances.The thing that gets me ,is even when it's obviously going wrong,the players,never mind Clarke don't try to make a change to the system they are playing.They just keep playing the same way,until they lose a goal.As somebody said on the forum,Tierney is the only one with a football brain,and even he is struggled by having Robertson in front of him.We really could get so much more out of Tierney,he really is a game changer of allowed to play freely.Just ask the Arsenal fans how much more they create with him playing.Only O'Donnell,Tierney,Fraser and maybe Adams deserved landmarks last night.The second half was a bit better,but after we scored we sort of slipped back into our old ways.I must admit,I really thought we had maybe found a way to utilise the players we have,and with some good young talent coming through,there were signs of hope.Unfortunately,Clarke never included Gilmpur,Gauld or Turnbull in the squad for these wc qualifiers,and so it is very unlikely he would throw them straight into the Euros squad.The one hope we have is that the players will rise to the whole euro experience,and produce similar performances to the game in Serbia(which was excellent).Otherwise,if we play like we have in the last four games,it's going to be a horrible experience.Of course,I will,covid permitting follow them home and away,but it will be more with than expectation.SCOTLAND FOREVER.

it wasnt that bad, i have seen dozens of worse performances in my lifetime. saying that we need to be beating israel home and away.

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13 minutes ago, kumnio said:

Israel were ranked 7th out of 10 teams in pot 4.

They would need to improve by 34 world ranking spots to be a third pot team, if they dropped 13 world ranking spots, they would be in the fifth pot. 

They most certainly are not a comfortable 3rd seed team quality. Our inability to beat them doesn’t make them good.

I'm well aware of where they are in the rankings and how it works. It doesn't make it accurate. We were ranked 11th in the world at one point back in 2007/8. Were we the 11th best team in the world? Absolutely not. The rankings can be, and are, very flawed.

Israel are not as good as us, and we should be beating them more often, but they are better than their ranking suggests. They have the players, and strategy, capable of taking points off of teams like Austria.

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15 minutes ago, Tartan blood said:

I'm well aware of where they are in the rankings and how it works. It doesn't make it accurate. We were ranked 11th in the world at one point back in 2007/8. Were we the 11th best team in the world? Absolutely not. The rankings can be, and are, very flawed.

Israel are not as good as us, and we should be beating them more often, but they are better than their ranking suggests. They have the players, and strategy, capable of taking points off of teams like Austria.

Just because you don’t agree with something, doesn’t mean it’s not true. Israel are a pot 4 team, and closer to being a pot 5 team than a pot 3 team. 

We were 8th out of 10 teams in pot 3, and we are ranked considerably higher than them. 

Are the rankings perfect, of course not, but they are pretty accurate. 

Edited by kumnio
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I am smart enough to know there are plenty of banana skins out there in international football. Loon at Ireland beaten at home by Liechtenstein or Iceland beaten by Armenia. Even Spain only forced a winner against Georgia deep into injury time. Today if you put in a sub-par performance the vast majority of international teams are capable of punishing you. That is what happened to us.

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i think it is quite arrogant to think we should be beating israel away easily. they are not a minnow like the faroes or gibralter but an average side who are well organised and have a few decent players. i think a draw away to them isnt a disaster but we really needed to win 1 of our opening 2 games and now we havent its ended our chances of winning an easy group which we will never be lucky enough to get again.

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22 minutes ago, kumnio said:

Just because you don’t agree with something, doesn’t mean it’s not true. Israel are a pot 4 team, and closer to being a pot 5 team than a pot 3 team. 

We were 8th out of 10 teams in pot 3, and we are ranked considerably higher than them. 

Are the rankings perfect, of course not, but they are pretty accurate. 

Rightly or wrongly, they are pot 4. My point is that it is quite misleading. In theory, we should be trouncing them every time, as should Denmark and Austria. But so far that hasn't happened. 

Their ranking doesn't make them a bad team. Anyway, I still think we should be beating them. But they might be capable of taking points off higher seeded teams like Austria. Maybe I'm just being unrealistically optimistic. Who knows.

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4 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

i think it is quite arrogant to think we should be beating israel away easily. they are not a minnow like the faroes or gibralter but an average side who are well organised and have a few decent players. i think a draw away to them isnt a disaster but we really needed to win 1 of our opening 2 games and now we havent its ended our chances of winning an easy group which we will never be lucky enough to get again.

Totally agree.

We have the players at our disposal to expect to win these games but if our star players don't perform then we will always struggle.

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1 hour ago, mccaughey85 said:

it wasnt that bad, i have seen dozens of worse performances in my lifetime. saying that we need to be beating israel home and away.

I don't know how long your lifetime is,but if it's less than 60,then no you haven't.That first half was nothing short of disgraceful.Truly painful to watch.

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The bottom line is if we continue to allow opposing players to run unchallenged until they're within shooting distance then sooner or later we're going to get fkin murdered.

McTominay was our best player on Thursday and arguably one of the worst yesterday.

Andy Robertson?  Just the other night it was how lucky we were to have him taking up the opposition's attention which allowed Tierney the freedom to run into the space created, giving us a left flank that's the envy of the rest of the planet. And now he's sh*te and should be dropped?!  Got to love the TAMB!  :lol: 

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1 hour ago, mccaughey85 said:

it wasnt that bad, i have seen dozens of worse performances in my lifetime. saying that we need to be beating israel home and away.

because of that abomination last night,we will need to beat Austria away from home at least.

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17 hours ago, kumnio said:

It’s within the realms of possibility that I will win the lottery next week, and Dundee will win the Champions League in two years time. 

Id fancy those odds better than us finishing second. 

It’s within the realms of possiblity that you will find employment soon you worksh........ nah, who the fuck am I trying to kid? 😄

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1 hour ago, thesaint said:

I don't know how long your lifetime is,but if it's less than 60,then no you haven't.That first half was nothing short of disgraceful.Truly painful to watch.

i am mid thirties and yes i have seen lots of worse performances, especially during the berti voights and avril levein eras. We played poorly in the first half then played reasonably well in the second half. i have watched games in the past where we could barely string two passes together.  

 

Edited by mccaughey85
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44 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

i am mid thirties and yes i have seen lots of worse performances, especially during the berti voights and avril levein eras. We played poorly in the first half then played reasonably well in the second half. i have watched games in the past where we could barely string two passes together.  

 

The first half was an absolute disgrace. It was the failure to learn anything from previous games and lack of self belief and determination that was astonishing. Yes, we’ve played worse, but this time we were completely to blame for our poor showing. It was a shameful 45 minutes and I’m still furious about it. 

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3 minutes ago, er yir macaroon said:

The first half was an absolute disgrace. It was the failure to learn anything from previous games and lack of self belief and determination that was astonishing. Yes, we’ve played worse, but this time we were completely to blame for our poor showing. It was a shameful 45 minutes and I’m still furious about it. 

we are always to blame for our poor performances and it doesnt change the fact we have played alot worse countless times in my lifetime alone. everybody is just pissed off because we had high hopes after getting to the euros and getting the world cup qualification group of our dreams. its frustrating but its not the disaster everyone is making it out to be. we will have to go and beat austria away now which is a big ask but its not a bigger ask than beating serbia away like we did for the euros.

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1 hour ago, mccaughey85 said:

i am mid thirties and yes i have seen lots of worse performances, especially during the berti voights and avril levein eras. We played poorly in the first half then played reasonably well in the second half. i have watched games in the past where we could barely string two passes together.  

 

It's amazing how short some people's memories are.  Undoubtedly, last night we turned in a tame, listless performance; we showed Israel far too much respect in the first half and although we improved in the second half our final ball was terrible.

That said, it was nowhere near as bad as - and this is just off the top of my head - Kazakhstan away two years ago; Russia (home and away) two years ago; Belgium at home two years ago; Slovakia away in 2016; Georgia away (2015 and 2007); Macedonia away 2008; Czech Republic away 2010; Norway away 2009; Belarus home 2005; Netherlands away 2003.  Hell, it wasn't even as bad as Israel away in 2018, when Alan McGregor saved us from a real hiding!

 

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2 minutes ago, scotlad said:

It's amazing how short some people's memories are.  Undoubtedly, last night we turned in a tame, listless performance; we showed Israel far too much respect in the first half and although we improved in the second half our final ball was terrible.

That said, it was nowhere near as bad as - and this is just off the top of my head - Kazakhstan away two years ago; Russia (home and away) two years ago; Belgium at home two years ago; Slovakia away in 2016; Georgia away (2015 and 2007); Macedonia away 2008; Czech Republic away 2010; Norway away 2009; Belarus home 2005; Netherlands away 2003.  Hell, it wasn't even as bad as Israel away in 2018, when Alan McGregor saved us from a real hiding!

 

It was worse because we knew all about the opposition and we just did the same old - except this time with several genuinely top level players. These games are cup finals, and we were just run of the mill shite. 

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6 minutes ago, scotlad said:

It's amazing how short some people's memories are.  Undoubtedly, last night we turned in a tame, listless performance; we showed Israel far too much respect in the first half and although we improved in the second half our final ball was terrible.

That said, it was nowhere near as bad as - and this is just off the top of my head - Kazakhstan away two years ago; Russia (home and away) two years ago; Belgium at home two years ago; Slovakia away in 2016; Georgia away (2015 and 2007); Macedonia away 2008; Czech Republic away 2010; Norway away 2009; Belarus home 2005; Netherlands away 2003.  Hell, it wasn't even as bad as Israel away in 2018, when Alan McGregor saved us from a real hiding!

 

not to mention the famous 2-2 with the faroes in 2003 i think. its not even our worst performance v israel.

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3 minutes ago, er yir macaroon said:

It was worse because we knew all about the opposition and we just did the same old - except this time with several genuinely top level players. These games are cup finals, and we were just run of the mill shite. 

We at least came away with a point though - in those other games we got beat.

I'm not disputing that it was a poor performance and you're right, we should know Israel's game inside out by now.  But come on, a draw away to Israel doesn't even come close to getting scudded 3-0 by fecking Kazakhstan, unknown quantities or not.

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2 minutes ago, scotlad said:

We at least came away with a point though - in those other games we got beat.

I'm not disputing that it was a poor performance and you're right, we should know Israel's game inside out by now.  But come on, a draw away to Israel doesn't even come close to getting scudded 3-0 by fecking Kazakhstan, unknown quantities or not.

I don’t know. That was a long flight, astroturf, new 3-5-2 etc. Rightly or wrongly this one has angered me far more and two games in it is very unlikely we’ll qualify (albeit I think we can play far far better - back to the  reason for the anger). 

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