Violence against women

[Hertsscot]

Thought I'd open this up as it's been mentioned and muddled in with other topics on other theads. The murder of Sarah Everard in proximity to International Women's Day has highlighted male violence and women's fears.

Thankfully cases like Sarah Everards, abduction by a stranger, are very rare. Sadly male violence isnt. 

I have three questions:

1. Are we making any progress? Hasnt it always been this way? 

2. How could we make better progress?

3. Are any countries getting this right?

 

[Lamia]

Violence against women is clearly an issue which I do not dispute but it is men who should be more afraid of strangers. Women predominantly get attacked by people they know. Women have build up this irrational fear of men they don't know but it is something that needs tackled either way. I heard someone suggest that men should think of their actions when they are walking down the street and cross the road if approaching a woman. I don't want to live in a society where men have to do that.

Women are queuing up to give examples about their experiences walking alone but how many of them are basing this on something that has actually happened to them. I would suggest very few. That fear has come from somewhere though. We need to tackle the actual violence along with the fear but in doing so we need to recognise what is driving that fear because it is not all down to random male strangers actually attacking women. 

 

[ParisInAKilt]

The static issue is that every community in the world is going to have males who are potentially violent and capable of murder and / or rape. 

I totally understand why women are fed up of being told to be safe by doing x y or z but the fact remains that no law, policy or police initiative can remove all potentially violent men. 

There’s always progress to be made. This is just my thoughts on what I’ve picked up in the media and from speaking to friends but it does appear that stalking and harassment etc, behaviour that indicates pro violence potential needs to be treated more seriously by the police. 
There was an Irish girl in Melbourne raped and murdered by a guy a few years back and he had several other serious  convictions against women previously and showed no remorse for his actions.  

[ParisInAKilt]

https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/03/13/this-is-not-what-sarah-would-have-wanted/

“As a 33-year-old woman, what will I take from this? I am reminded that life is short, and I will try to live mine to the full. Of course, I will be sensible and maybe take a few more taxis than I used to. But I will not live in fear. As soon as lockdown is over, I am going to go out, celebrate, get drunk with my mates in a pub. I will dance, laugh, cry, hug people and be grateful that I am alive. I will miss my friend deeply. I am so sad she will never see the end of lockdown and, as her friends, we will never get to enjoy these experiences with her again”

 incredibly sad.

[phart]

The point isn't who should be afraid, it's that men perpetrate almost all violence and how do we mitigate this.

25% of all women experience domestic abuse (had to go check the stat hence the edit) that's not an insignificant amount at all.

1 in 4 women in the UK will experience domestic abuse in her lifetime, and 1 in 5 will experience sexual violence.  : https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/strategy-to-end-violence-against-women-and-girls-2016-to-2020/ending-violence-against-women-and-girls-strategy-refresh-2016-to-2020-march-2019-accessible-version

33.75 million woman in the UK, 25% of that is 8.4 million. I'd not categorise that as an insignificant amount.

Edited March 14, 2021 by phart

[Taylor1996]

Generally, society and the world is anti-woman.

There are parts of the world where women can't vote, they have to adhere to a dress code, they can't do this or that, they can't date outside their religion, as the repercussions are an "honour killing". Generally, women are second class citizens.

And yet, the men that make them laws and treat women like garbage, came from a woman. Do they not know this? Just sums up how stupid human beings are, on a general basis.

It's not just the middle east. Just look at the presidency. Hillary Clinton went up against Donald Trump, and inexplicably, Trump won. Then, cut to four years later, Trump went head to head with an infirm OAP. A man that broke his ankle playing catch with his dog. 

The OAP won. Mainly because America wants a man in charge of their country, even if he could quite easily die of old age in office.

Estimates published by WHO in 2020, indicate that globally about 1 in 3 (30%) of women worldwide have been subjected to either physical and/or sexual intimate partner violence or non-partner sexual violence in their lifetime.

It will only cease when rapists and men who physically abuse women are brought to real justice. Which, let's be honest, will probably never happen. Then we have women who choose not to make light the fact that they got raped, for reasons ranging from shame, not wanting to tell their family or friends of their ordeal, or, because they know that the justice system is rigged and that the accuser will not face justice.

Then we have the whole Marilyn Manson thing, where his exes are crying rape. I don't buy that one. You don't go into a relationship with that guy and expect him to be Mr Rodgers. CRC is a popular thing, and that's most probably the kink that those ladies are into, I know that he most definitely is.

[Jim Beem]

This specific case does seem to have gathered huge attention though. Straw that broke the camels back or the involvement of a Police Officer ? 

Been mentioned before but there was a young girl and her 2 year old murdered in Dundee 2 weeks ago and even up here, the media attention was a fraction of that generated down south. ☹️ That said, the girl and her kid murdered in Dundee were not exactly white middle england. 

[ParisInAKilt]

7 minutes ago, Taylor1996 said:

Generally, society and the world is anti-woman.

There are parts of the world where women can't vote, they have to adhere to a dress code, they can't do this or that, they can't date outside their religion, as the repercussions are an "honour killing". Generally, women are second class citizens.

And yet, the men that make them laws and treat women like garbage, came from a woman. Do they not know this? Just sums up how stupid human beings are, on a general basis.

It's not just the middle east. Just look at the presidency. Hillary Clinton went up against Donald Trump, and inexplicably, Trump won. Then, cut to four years later, Trump went head to head with an infirm OAP. A man that broke his ankle playing catch with his dog. 

The OAP won. Mainly because America wants a man in charge of their country, even if he could quite easily die of old age in office.

Estimates published by WHO in 2020, indicate that globally about 1 in 3 (30%) of women worldwide have been subjected to either physical and/or sexual intimate partner violence or non-partner sexual violence in their lifetime.

It will only cease when rapists and men who physically abuse women are brought to real justice. Which, let's be honest, will probably never happen. Then we have women who choose not to make light the fact that they got raped, for reasons ranging from shame, not wanting to tell their family or friends of their ordeal, or, because they know that the justice system is rigged and that the accuser will not face justice.

Then we have the whole Marilyn Manson thing, where his exes are crying rape. I don't buy that one. You don't go into a relationship with that guy and expect him to be Mr Rodgers. CRC is a popular thing, and that's most probably the kink that those ladies are into, I know that he most definitely is.

I think only Manson and his partners know what did or did happen in their relationships. 

[phart]

Loads of folk die and it doesn't get/or get's too much attention.

Humans are biologically predisposed to pay more attention to things that represent them, we are on a scottish football message board after all.

It's all a secondary concern, violence is the primary concern. We could give every case the correct proportionate media coverage and after spending all that effort, we've not done a single thing to adressing the problem.

 

Edited March 14, 2021 by phart

[kumnio]

10 minutes ago, Jim Beem said:

This specific case does seem to have gathered huge attention though. Straw that broke the camels back or the involvement of a Police Officer ? 

Been mentioned before but there was a young girl and her 2 year old murdered in Dundee 2 weeks ago and even up here, the media attention was a fraction of that generated down south. ☹️ That said, the girl and her kid murdered in Dundee were not exactly white middle england. 

I got details about that on Friday night, through a group chat, before the story broke, none of us could believe how bad it was. There’s more to come, if what I’ve been told is true. Absolutely shocking crime. 

[Taylor1996]

1 minute ago, ParisInAKilt said:

I think only Manson and his partners know what did or did happen in their relationships. 

Without divulging too much, I think I'm probably correct with this one.

I know that it's popular to disagree with me in this place, but, CRC is a far more popular thing than vanilla people think. I've seen photographs of those women, even before they got together with him.

He's not exactly a wolf in sheep's clothing.

He was married for seven years to Dita Von Teese, she said that he was never abusive towards her or did anything to her without her consent. It's like the Johnny Depp case. Evidence was substantial that HE was the victim, and yet Amber Heard won.

[kumnio]

2 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

1. Are we making any progress? Hasnt it always been this way? 

2. How could we make better progress?

3. Are any countries getting this right?

 

I’d say we are, and that things are improving, but not very quickly. People are scared of things that don’t exist in their world, but gets multiplied massively by the media. 

I don’t think we can change things quickly. The whole look “Protect your daughter - educate your son” thing is just nonsense IMO. If you raise kids in fear of what will happen, you’re only going to raise them to be scared of everything.

There will never be an ideal country for anyone to live, let alone half the population. But the UK is one of the safest countries in the world, that might not fit the narrative, but it’s almost always in the top 15 or 20 of studies. 

[TDYER63]

1 hour ago, Lamia said:

Violence against women is clearly an issue which I do not dispute but it is men who should be more afraid of strangers. Women predominantly get attacked by people they know. Women have build up this irrational fear of men they don't know but it is something that needs tackled either way. I heard someone suggest that men should think of their actions when they are walking down the street and cross the road if approaching a woman. I don't want to live in a society where men have to do that.

Women are queuing up to give examples about their experiences walking alone but how many of them are basing this on something that has actually happened to them. I would suggest very few. That fear has come from somewhere though. We need to tackle the actual violence along with the fear but in doing so we need to recognise what is driving that fear because it is not all down to random male strangers actually attacking women. 

 

Some women may have witnessed it in their family, perhaps their dad beating up their mum. and have a very real fear of men. 

The more irrational fear could simply down to things like the TV. All the programmes you see about women being murdered or attacked at night could worry women who and play on their sub conscience. Social media as well I imagine can exacerbate this. 

My employer gave out personal attack alarms a few years ago. It was obviously done for all the right reasons and they were caring for the staff,  but being attacked wasnt something i thought much about before and although it gave me comfort to have it , it focused my mind on the fact I actually could be attacked and made me a bit more cautious and wary. This caution could be interpreted as irrational fear as it hadnt been there before. 

 

[TDYER63]

21 minutes ago, Jim Beem said:

This specific case does seem to have gathered huge attention though. Straw that broke the camels back or the involvement of a Police Officer ? 

Been mentioned before but there was a young girl and her 2 year old murdered in Dundee 2 weeks ago and even up here, the media attention was a fraction of that generated down south. ☹️ That said, the girl and her kid murdered in Dundee were not exactly white middle england. 

I think the fact it was a policeman is why it is getting so much attention. Whilst we know there is corruption in the police we really dont expect the very people who are there to protect us to be involved in the murder of an innocent woman. This is TV drama type stuff. 

[ParisInAKilt]

7 minutes ago, kumnio said:

I’d say we are, and that things are improving, but not very quickly. People are scared of things that don’t exist in their world, but gets multiplied massively by the media. 

I don’t think we can change things quickly. The whole look “Protect your daughter - educate your son” thing is just nonsense IMO. If you raise kids in fear of what will happen, you’re only going to raise them to be scared of everything.

There will never be an ideal country for anyone to live, let alone half the population. But the UK is one of the safest countries in the world, that might not fit the narrative, but it’s almost always in the top 15 or 20 of studies. 

Can’t you do both? Protect and educate both girls and boys. 

Taking unnecessary risks in the name of defying male violence just seems daft to me. I’d love to walk home from the pub some nights but I know it increases my risk of getting a kicking. 

[kumnio]

There’s over 132’000 police in England and Wales, having some bad apples amongst that number isn’t a surprise.

[Hertsscot]

1 hour ago, phart said:

The point isn't who should be afraid, it's that men perpetrate almost all violence and how do we mitigate this.

25% of all women experience domestic abuse (had to go check the stat hence the edit) that's not an insignificant amount at all.

1 in 4 women in the UK will experience domestic abuse in her lifetime, and 1 in 5 will experience sexual violence.  : https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/strategy-to-end-violence-against-women-and-girls-2016-to-2020/ending-violence-against-women-and-girls-strategy-refresh-2016-to-2020-march-2019-accessible-version

33.75 million woman in the UK, 25% of that is 8.4 million. I'd not categorise that as an insignificant amount.

 

[exile]

2 hours ago, Lamia said:

Violence against women is clearly an issue which I do not dispute but it is men who should be more afraid of strangers. Women predominantly get attacked by people they know. Women have build up this irrational fear of men they don't know but it is something that needs tackled either way. I heard someone suggest that men should think of their actions when they are walking down the street and cross the road if approaching a woman. I don't want to live in a society where men have to do that.

 

Isn't that normal? I mean especially at night, and especially if catching up on someone in front?

[Hertsscot]

Still haven't worked out to edit posts correctly! In response to pharts post. Those are horrible statistics and make me wonder whether Reclaim the Streets have got the right focus on preventing violence against women. Random murders are rare and by their nature are almost impossible to prevent. 

In England Harriet Harman is trying to make keen crawling illegal (currently only illegal if trying to get sold sex), that seems like a very obvious thing to do.

I would like to think we can make some progress with DV through education, legislation and better enforcement. 

[Lamia]

1 hour ago, Taylor1996 said:

 

He was married for seven years to Dita Von Teese, she said that he was never abusive towards her or did anything to her without her consent. It's like the Johnny Depp case. Evidence was substantial that HE was the victim, and yet Amber Heard won.

Think they were equally as bad! Why you would want to play that out in public is beyond me!

[Lamia]

1 hour ago, Jim Beem said:

This specific case does seem to have gathered huge attention though. Straw that broke the camels back or the involvement of a Police Officer ? 

Been mentioned before but there was a young girl and her 2 year old murdered in Dundee 2 weeks ago and even up here, the media attention was a fraction of that generated down south. ☹️ That said, the girl and her kid murdered in Dundee were not exactly white middle england. 

I saw that. I know nothing of what happened but I feel so sorry for her other child! 

[Lamia]

1 hour ago, phart said:

The point isn't who should be afraid, it's that men perpetrate almost all violence and how do we mitigate this.

 

Totally agree with this. Violence against anyone need to stop.

[Hertsscot]

9 minutes ago, exile said:

Isn't that normal? I mean especially at night, and especially if catching up on someone in front?

I've always done that.   Id like to think anyone would to lessen someone's fears

[phart]

15 minutes ago, exile said:

Isn't that normal? I mean especially at night, and especially if catching up on someone in front?

I got told to do that way back in 2001 when I started university.

[exile]

3 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

Thought I'd open this up as it's been mentioned and muddled in with other topics on other theads. The murder of Sarah Everard in proximity to International Women's Day has highlighted male violence and women's fears.

Thankfully cases like Sarah Everards, abduction by a stranger, are very rare. Sadly male violence isnt. 

I have three questions:

1. Are we making any progress? Hasnt it always been this way? 

2. How could we make better progress?

3. Are any countries getting this right?

 

Two quick answers (probably addresing question 2).

I think talking about it, and calling it out for what it is must be part of it. I saw something recently saying how often violence is expressed as something "done to women", "against women", in context of the woman's behaviour. But so often the male perpetrator was missing. As in, headlines shouldn't be "party reveller was raped" but "man rapes woman", or not "tragic beauty queen in honour killing" but "man murdered woman". Of course the perpetrator may not be known. As in this case. But once you see things this way, difficult to unsee.

Another thing 'we could do' is do more to call out misogyny and language about doing harm to women. Probably also to men. As in "she deserves a slap" (or worse). I don't remember any recently on TAMB but it did exist in the past, and of course does exist in other social media. Of course it's at risk of being "thought police" territory. But I think, to answer the question, this must be part of the answer. For TAMB, apart from anything else it is not very welcoming to new or existing members, if the TAMB is to maintain or attract members, if people are using casually violent language.