Why cant teams challenge the old firm?

[Toepoke]

1 hour ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Well historically they’ve always been the most successful, least from the 60’s as far as I know, minus the brief period of the 80’s. 

It was the case before then too.

By 1960 Rangers had won the league 31 times to Celtic's 20.

The next closest were Hearts on 4 (they won it that year) joining Hibs' total.

The difference then in, the days of the maximum wage, was that players at smaller clubs would be earning similar money to those at the Old Firm. That philosophy took a while to change even after wage limits were dropped, so much so that in the 80s Aberdeen were paying better money than anyone. 

This century though no one has been able to get near matching the expenditure of the big 2 and therefore we've had decades where the title has remained in Glasgow. 

 

Edited December 10, 2020 by Toepoke

[vanderark14]

38 minutes ago, Toepoke said:

It was the case before then too.

By 1960 Rangers had won the league 31 times to Celtic's 20.

The next closest were Hearts on 4 (they won it that year) joining Hibs' total.

The difference then in, the days of the maximum wage, was that players at smaller clubs would be earning similar money to those at the Old Firm. That philosophy took a while to change even after wage limits were dropped, so much so that in the 80s Aberdeen were paying better money than anyone. 

This century though no one has been able to get near matching the expenditure of the big 2 and therefore we've had decades where the title has remained in Glasgow. 

 

Aberdeen only paid mpre after win bonuses of they were succesful like in 83

Also, celtic were more succesful domestically on the 80s

[mr mojo risin]

With the unique nature of this stay at home Covid season I wondered if it would rekindle my love of football or kill it off altogether. Sadly, after the last 35 years, I feel myself moving towards the latter. It's not the fact that nobody else can win the league this year or next, it's the fact that nobody will win it ever again - must have been great following Scottish fitba post war until '65!

Other than catching up with mates I don't really miss it much at all, the standard isn't great on top of the predictability. Even in the glory days of the '80s you never knew who was going to win each season and we were 6 minutes from 5 different champions. You also had great players like Andy Ritchie who could destroy your team or Alan Rough who could keep you out all day.

It's not just Scotland, the more I read about the big project (or whatever they call it) down south the more scunnered I feel.

So what does keep everyone going along these days (whenever we get to again)?

[dandydunn]

1 hour ago, mr mojo risin said:

With the unique nature of this stay at home Covid season I wondered if it would rekindle my love of football or kill it off altogether. Sadly, after the last 35 years, I feel myself moving towards the latter. It's not the fact that nobody else can win the league this year or next, it's the fact that nobody will win it ever again - must have been great following Scottish fitba post war until '65!

Other than catching up with mates I don't really miss it much at all, the standard isn't great on top of the predictability. Even in the glory days of the '80s you never knew who was going to win each season and we were 6 minutes from 5 different champions. You also had great players like Andy Ritchie who could destroy your team or Alan Rough who could keep you out all day.

It's not just Scotland, the more I read about the big project (or whatever they call it) down south the more scunnered I feel.

So what does keep everyone going along these days (whenever we get to again)?

For me, I keep going for the simple fact I love watching Aberdeen, have been going steadily since I was 14 (39 next month) and now my boy is hooked too. Being with all the lads is another part of it that can’t be beaten, golf in the morning, home, shower and then back out to the golf club on a Saturday is epic. He’s gonna be 13 in February, so is almost past the part of waving his flag until his arms fall off, but now pays more attention to what they’re doing in the pitch and compares it to his own games. 
 

I can’t wait to get back, watching on a delayed feed on tv every week is horrific. 
 

We won’t win the league anytime soon, but I still expect them to and enjoy the arguments after the game in the boozer.  

[mccaughey85]

The main reasons are the hardcore support of both teams coupled by the fact both teams attract fans from every town/area in scotland. Even in Edinburgh, Dundee and Aberdeen huge numbers of ppl support the old firm. Even before television rangers and celtic dominated Scottish football. Greater Glasgow region is over 2million with a hardcore working class support much like places like Manchester and Liverpool. Success then breeds success and then lots of ppl from the rest of Scotland choose to follow the best team in Scotland which usually is celtic or rangers. 

The stranglehold has maybe increased slightly with TV money and champs league money but the old firm were always dominant. 

[vanderark14]

On 12/11/2020 at 11:04 PM, dandydunn said:

For me, I keep going for the simple fact I love watching Aberdeen, have been going steadily since I was 14 (39 next month) and now my boy is hooked too. Being with all the lads is another part of it that can’t be beaten, golf in the morning, home, shower and then back out to the golf club on a Saturday is epic. He’s gonna be 13 in February, so is almost past the part of waving his flag until his arms fall off, but now pays more attention to what they’re doing in the pitch and compares it to his own games. 
 

I can’t wait to get back, watching on a delayed feed on tv every week is horrific. 
 

We won’t win the league anytime soon, but I still expect them to and enjoy the arguments after the game in the boozer.  

I dont have the same enthusiasm nowadayd. Before movong south i had a season ticket at pittodrie for 3 years in a row. I went because it was something to do but if i had anything else on id give my ticket to someone else. I cant say i miss it and i find myself being a bit meh when the dons are on TV, i watch the game but i cant say i go through the same emotions lioe when ive watches scotland lately.

 

[OLAS]

Parklife only supports Aberdeen because they were always on the telly and decent when he was susceptible to glory hunting as a wean.

He is the reason why other teams can't compete.  

[Toepoke]

Saw a stat today that none of the Champions League last 16 are currently leading their domestic leagues, but 13 of the Europa League last 32 are.

The "big five" leagues are currently topped by Spurs, AC Milan, Bayer Leverkusen, Real Sociedad and Lille.

 

[Rolling hIlls]

7 minutes ago, Toepoke said:

Saw a stat today that none of the Champions League last 16 are currently leading their domestic leagues, but 13 of the Europa League last 32 are.

The "big five" leagues are currently topped by Spurs, AC Milan, Bayer Leverkusen, Real Sociedad and Lille.

 

And Rangers 👍

[Diamond Scot]

If you were put in charge of Aberdeen, Hibs or Hearts today. What measures or changes would you make to close the gap to the Old Firm? 

3 I would make are:

1) Make admission free for under 16s.

2)Create a singing / standing section. 

3) Put a limit on the number of players over the age of 28 and shout from the rooftops about giving youth a platform (this would likely lead to some inconsistency in the short term and you would have to tie all the younger players into contracts of at least 3 years), however as a business model, attract young, develop and sell for a decent amount but with a higher % sell on fee.

[mr mojo risin]

At our AGM last night Cormack was on about Altantic Leagues and the like again. I like that he is trying to find solutions, and I certainly don't have the answers, as how to make our league interesting again, but would failing to compete with Rangers & Celtic in an Atlantic League be any better than failing to compete with them in a Scottish League?

I asked if we had any short, medium or long term plan to at least try and challenge them (as difficult as that is in the post Sky/Bosman/Champions League era) but we don't and can only hope a Cup falls for us every once in a while if we keep getting to Hampden. I suppose it's honest but depressing none the less.

[mr mojo risin]

1 minute ago, Diamond Scot said:

If you were put in charge of Aberdeen, Hibs or Hearts today. What measures or changes would you make to close the gap to the Old Firm? 

3 I would make are:

1) Make admission free for under 16s.

2)Create a singing / standing section. 

3) Put a limit on the number of players over the age of 28 and shout from the rooftops about giving youth a platform (this would likely lead to some inconsistency in the short term and you would have to tie all the younger players into contracts of at least 3 years), however as a business model, attract young, develop and sell for a decent amount but with a higher % sell on fee.

Re-invest 50% (or more) of player sales - imagine getting £1.5M from the McKenna deal to pay for players instead of scraping around for freebies. A lower scale version of what Celtic (and presumably Rangers one day) do. At least that gives you some kind of chance if you know how to buy & sell.

[Diamond Scot]

1 hour ago, mr mojo risin said:

Re-invest 50% (or more) of player sales - imagine getting £1.5M from the McKenna deal to pay for players instead of scraping around for freebies. A lower scale version of what Celtic (and presumably Rangers one day) do. At least that gives you some kind of chance if you know how to buy & sell.

I think something like that can only be done longer term. For example the proceeds of selling McKenna will largely go to balancing the books.

However if the club model was always bringing in young players, over time a few of them would start to pay off, maybe not so much in terms of initial sale but their next sell on. As a club id be looking to sell at least 2 or 3 first team youngsters a year but the key is having their replacements already at the club or identified. Once a club gets a reputation for being a good platform to develop then it inturn attracts more youngsters etc.

Combined with hopefully a full stadium, albeit most non paying, the club would become an attactive place to join.

[mccaughey85]

11 hours ago, Diamond Scot said:

If you were put in charge of Aberdeen, Hibs or Hearts today. What measures or changes would you make to close the gap to the Old Firm? 

3 I would make are:

1) Make admission free for under 16s.

2)Create a singing / standing section. 

3) Put a limit on the number of players over the age of 28 and shout from the rooftops about giving youth a platform (this would likely lead to some inconsistency in the short term and you would have to tie all the younger players into contracts of at least 3 years), however as a business model, attract young, develop and sell for a decent amount but with a higher % sell on fee.

Thats not going to close the gap much. 

Whats really needed is a sugar daddy to take hibs, hearts or aberdeen and just throw money at it for a good ten years or more coupled with said club producing an excellent batch of young players like hibs did. Only then would you see a proper change in Scottish football. 

[ParisInAKilt]

17 hours ago, Diamond Scot said:

If you were put in charge of Aberdeen, Hibs or Hearts today. What measures or changes would you make to close the gap to the Old Firm? 

3 I would make are:

1) Make admission free for under 16s.

2)Create a singing / standing section. 

3) Put a limit on the number of players over the age of 28 and shout from the rooftops about giving youth a platform (this would likely lead to some inconsistency in the short term and you would have to tie all the younger players into contracts of at least 3 years), however as a business model, attract young, develop and sell for a decent amount but with a higher % sell on fee.

Aren’t young players now able to leave before they are tied down on a contract? Mainly thinking the under 17’s

[wee-toon-red]

18 hours ago, Diamond Scot said:

If you were put in charge of Aberdeen, Hibs or Hearts today. What measures or changes would you make to close the gap to the Old Firm? 

3 I would make are:

1) Make admission free for under 16s.

2)Create a singing / standing section. 

3) Put a limit on the number of players over the age of 28 and shout from the rooftops about giving youth a platform (this would likely lead to some inconsistency in the short term and you would have to tie all the younger players into contracts of at least 3 years), however as a business model, attract young, develop and sell for a decent amount but with a higher % sell on fee.

While all of those would be great, I don't see any of them making even a dent in the OF superiority. Money talks and that's pretty much the end of it.

There's an interesting and potentially worrying article on The Athletic website just now which paints a potentially devastating picture of the impact of Brexit on Scottish youth academies. The thinking is that with English clubs unable to sign European kids under the age of 18, combined with the noticeable improvement in the standard of Scottish players such as Robertson, McGinn, Tierney and, most pertinently, Billy Gilmour, that their attention will turn to Scotland to fill their own academies. Apparently since Gilmour went down to Chelsea the number of English club scouts at Scottish games went from pretty much zero to nearly 20.

In the long term that could be good for the national team but with the compensation framework set by FIFA a relative pittance it could be a disaster for Scottish clubs looking to make money or fill their squads with top class youth.

It's behind a paywall but here's the link for anyone who subscribes and hasn't seen it yet:

https://theathletic.co.uk/2197585/2020/12/16/brexit-scottish-english-transfers/

[mr mojo risin]

7 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Thats not going to close the gap much. 

Whats really needed is a sugar daddy to take hibs, hearts or aberdeen and just throw money at it for a good ten years or more coupled with said club producing an excellent batch of young players like hibs did. Only then would you see a proper change in Scottish football. 

Need investors to follow managers and players and come to Scotland first to make a name for themselves. They could buy the League at an Aberdeen, Hearts or Hibs for a fraction of the investment needed to hover around the middle of the English league doing nothing. Then they could get their "big move" to an English team later?

[dandydunn]

3 hours ago, mr mojo risin said:

Need investors to follow managers and players and come to Scotland first to make a name for themselves. They could buy the League at an Aberdeen, Hearts or Hibs for a fraction of the investment needed to hover around the middle of the English league doing nothing. Then they could get their "big move" to an English team later?

Potentially, yes. But what would they gain from it? Winning the SPFL won’t give them a lot of money or kudos and they would need serious money to even think about doing something in europe and that kind of player just isn’t attracted to Scottish football. 
 

Celtic find the odd gem and can sell for a profit, but look at Eduardo, a big(ish) name player, happy for a couple of seasons to make people see him, but now is constantly in a silk because he doesn’t want to be there anymore. 
 

To us, Scottish football is everything, to the outside world, it’s nothing I’m afraid. 

[dipped flake]

On 12/9/2020 at 11:56 PM, Diamond Scot said:

Its become accepted that the old firm are too big and have too much money to be challenged by any other club in Scotland.

My question is why? It wasnt always this way. People look at fan base but Pre 90s Rangers ave attendence was 25k and 35k. Celtics was even less and up until 96 was below 35k.

TV money came in but has always been distributed on league position and it wasnt until the mid 90s that the Old Firm started finishing 1st and 2nd. In fact up until 96 Celtic hadnt finished 2nd at all.

Glasgow has a huge catchment area for support (635k) for Glasgow alone however Edinburgh has 525k with just 2 teams and Aberdeen 230k with just 1 team. Why is it then that the Old Firm can fill their stadiums and Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen cant?

For every argument that ive heard put forward such as, buses leave every town to go to Glasgow, the same could be achieved with these cities. Edinburgh clubs could attract fans from Fife, Stirling etc. Aberdeen from the entire Highlands.

Currently the old firm have the financial muscle but the 3 clubs mentioned should have more financial muscle than the rest of Scottish clubs but cant seem to generate the same kind of dominance. Ie if the old firm always finish 1st and 2nd due to money, why dont these clubs always finish 3rd to 5th currently?

Religion

[mr mojo risin]

6 hours ago, dandydunn said:

Potentially, yes. But what would they gain from it? Winning the SPFL won’t give them a lot of money or kudos and they would need serious money to even think about doing something in europe and that kind of player just isn’t attracted to Scottish football. 
 

Celtic find the odd gem and can sell for a profit, but look at Eduardo, a big(ish) name player, happy for a couple of seasons to make people see him, but now is constantly in a silk because he doesn’t want to be there anymore. 
 

To us, Scottish football is everything, to the outside world, it’s nothing I’m afraid. 

I would have thought there would be some kudos in breaking the stranglehold and that someone could make a name for themselves? Do you make much money running an Aston Villa or a West Ham when you think of the constant outlay? Maybe you do...

[dandydunn]

1 hour ago, mr mojo risin said:

I would have thought there would be some kudos in breaking the stranglehold and that someone could make a name for themselves? Do you make much money running an Aston Villa or a West Ham when you think of the constant outlay? Maybe you do...

I would imagine the multi millions of payments even if you’re relegated help them out a lot. There’s not the money here to make a success of a small club and there never will be. 

[Toepoke]

This thread aged well

 

[Orraloon]

13 hours ago, Toepoke said:

This thread aged well

 

The power of the TAMB. 

[kumnio]

On 12/10/2020 at 6:26 AM, RDFH64 said:

One of the biggest problems with Scottish football is the number of teams in a nation of our size, Arbroath, Brechin, Forfar & Montrose in Angus, Dunfermline, Raith Rovers, East Fife & Cowdenbeath in Fife, Falkirk, East Stirling, Stenhousemuir, Alloa & Stirling Albion all within 20 or so miles. The cash pot can’t sustain so many teams, amalgamating some of these teams might help but we’ve seen the problems that caused in Inverness. Sadly it’s down to finances and football is now run by FIFA & UEFA purely for profit as has been shown by the CL & europa league, the ticket pricing for 2020 euros are astronomical in these times of covid caused financial hardship, absolutely disgraceful.

The wee teams have every right to exist, and are generally better run than most of the bigger clubs. They get a pittance from the SPFL anyway, it’s not like they are taking good money away from Premiership teams, but they offer an easy kick for the media and cunts like Strachan. 

[sbcmfc]

On 12/15/2020 at 2:34 PM, Diamond Scot said:

If you were put in charge of Aberdeen, Hibs or Hearts today. What measures or changes would you make to close the gap to the Old Firm? 

3 I would make are:

1) Make admission free for under 16s.

2)Create a singing / standing section. 

3) Put a limit on the number of players over the age of 28 and shout from the rooftops about giving youth a platform (this would likely lead to some inconsistency in the short term and you would have to tie all the younger players into contracts of at least 3 years), however as a business model, attract young, develop and sell for a decent amount but with a higher % sell on fee.

Motherwell tried all this stuff in the early 00’s.

We managed to prove that you literally can’t give tickets away.

Yes, you’ll get a few people that will come along for the day, boys clubs, schools etc. but they all need adults to come with them, and your boys club coach for example might be happy to take some kids along once or twice a season, but they’re not doing it every Saturday.

Sticking with the Motherwell example, you’ll get locals who will come along, maybe come to cup finals, but a lot of them don’t have the time, money or interest to make it a fortnightly thing. Either that or they will support the old firm and lend their support to us on occasion.

The sad fact is, Motherwell are the 3rd most popular team in Motherwell.

Could be worse, Livi are 5th in Livingston. 😂

Edited December 22, 2020 by sbcmfc