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Why cant teams challenge the old firm?


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Its become accepted that the old firm are too big and have too much money to be challenged by any other club in Scotland.

My question is why? It wasnt always this way. People look at fan base but Pre 90s Rangers ave attendence was 25k and 35k. Celtics was even less and up until 96 was below 35k.

TV money came in but has always been distributed on league position and it wasnt until the mid 90s that the Old Firm started finishing 1st and 2nd. In fact up until 96 Celtic hadnt finished 2nd at all.

Glasgow has a huge catchment area for support (635k) for Glasgow alone however Edinburgh has 525k with just 2 teams and Aberdeen 230k with just 1 team. Why is it then that the Old Firm can fill their stadiums and Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen cant?

For every argument that ive heard put forward such as, buses leave every town to go to Glasgow, the same could be achieved with these cities. Edinburgh clubs could attract fans from Fife, Stirling etc. Aberdeen from the entire Highlands.

Currently the old firm have the financial muscle but the 3 clubs mentioned should have more financial muscle than the rest of Scottish clubs but cant seem to generate the same kind of dominance. Ie if the old firm always finish 1st and 2nd due to money, why dont these clubs always finish 3rd to 5th currently?

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I would say the playing field of the other 10 teams is a lot closer to each other than the top two is. There is poor results for both teams now and again, but the rest of the teams are more than capable of taking points off of each other on a regular basis. 
 

It’s been shown that Aberdeen appear to have (arguably) the strongest starting 11 of the rest of the teams, but what is on the bench isn’t anywhere near as strong as it needs to be when called upon. 
 

Aberdeen do attract fans from up north, but there is several teams up there too that people want to follow and isn’t a 5-6 hour round trip to go to games. 
 

Sky tv are probably to blame a lot too, I can’t say for other grounds, but I know people that won’t go to pittodrie because Aberdeen are pish and their (team) is playing on sky that they would rather watch, but these same people can’t realise that if they actually bothered their arses going to the games, then they may actually get entertained a bit better than one of the pish that is shown on telly. 
 

Unfortunately, kids supporting their local team is long gone and they would rather see superstars on tv winning the champions league and their parents have now drilled it into them that it’s better to support a winning team and buy success. 
 

I realise I’ve went off on an odd tangent with this post, it’s all over the place really, but I think this photo is a sad reality of where we are as a country. 

63122D0A-CF83-4654-BEC5-884109F1C899.jpeg

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10 hours ago, Diamond Scot said:

Its become accepted that the old firm are too big and have too much money to be challenged by any other club in Scotland.

My question is why? It wasnt always this way. People look at fan base but Pre 90s Rangers ave attendence was 25k and 35k. Celtics was even less and up until 96 was below 35k.

TV money came in but has always been distributed on league position and it wasnt until the mid 90s that the Old Firm started finishing 1st and 2nd. In fact up until 96 Celtic hadnt finished 2nd at all.

Glasgow has a huge catchment area for support (635k) for Glasgow alone however Edinburgh has 525k with just 2 teams and Aberdeen 230k with just 1 team. Why is it then that the Old Firm can fill their stadiums and Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen cant?

For every argument that ive heard put forward such as, buses leave every town to go to Glasgow, the same could be achieved with these cities. Edinburgh clubs could attract fans from Fife, Stirling etc. Aberdeen from the entire Highlands.

Currently the old firm have the financial muscle but the 3 clubs mentioned should have more financial muscle than the rest of Scottish clubs but cant seem to generate the same kind of dominance. Ie if the old firm always finish 1st and 2nd due to money, why dont these clubs always finish 3rd to 5th currently?

The mid 90s is when champions league money came in and saw rangers dominate. Celtic got their act together and then tv money really took off. Unfortunately the tv coverage in scotland since day one has been an old firm.away game season ticket, partly due to the england based sky believing nobody exists outside the OF and the clubs being stupid enough to buy it. 

The coverage is all about the OF or EPL so its little wonder kids arent supporting their local side.

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13 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

The mid 90s is when champions league money came in and saw rangers dominate. Celtic got their act together and then tv money really took off. Unfortunately the tv coverage in scotland since day one has been an old firm.away game season ticket, partly due to the england based sky believing nobody exists outside the OF and the clubs being stupid enough to buy it. 

The coverage is all about the OF or EPL so its little wonder kids arent supporting their local side.

Spot on,

I’m in my mid 50’s now 👴when I was at school late 79’s early 80’s I’d say around 60-70% of my year supported St Mirren ( having a good side obviously helped ).

I remember my nephew saying to me about 2 years ago that he was the ONLY Saints fan in any of his classes that actually went to games, all the rest were Old Firm, English Prem, Barca or Real Madrid fans, but also lots of kids with no interest in football, that itself would have considered weird back in my day. 

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7 minutes ago, Jersey Jim said:

Spot on,

I’m in my mid 50’s now 👴when I was at school late 79’s early 80’s I’d say around 60-70% of my year supported St Mirren ( having a good side obviously helped ).

I remember my nephew saying to me about 2 years ago that he was the ONLY Saints fan in any of his classes that actually went to games, all the rest were Old Firm, English Prem, Barca or Real Madrid fans, but also lots of kids with no interest in football, that itself would have considered weird back in my day. 

Im juat about to turn 40 and it was the same at my school.aberdeen fans totally outnumbered the rest, not so much now.

 

Its not just kids JJ. Adults turn to EPL sides too, i know a few from the north east who have season tickets at old trafford. Its bad enough supporting the OF but even the OF will suffer soon enough as the super clubs in europe get bigger and hoover up more tv coverage.

I had a look at the last 16 pf the CL, one side outside the top nations have qualified this season and thats Porto. The CL is destroying football not enhancing it. Going off on a tangent here but there is a connection. The initial growth of football on TV benefited the OF but not so much now.

Edited by vanderark14
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I suppose my point is two fold.

1) If TV money started coming in fron early 90s then why did the likes of Aberdeen etc not make the same use of it that the Old Firm did to get ahead?

2) If success is largely based on money then why do we not see a more consistent order in terms of our other big teams. Aberdeen, Hibs and Hearts should have the biggest budgets outside the Old Firm but have all either been relegated or finished down the bottom in the last 20 years.

Surely the 1st step to closing the gap to the Old Firm is consistently finishing in the top 5 (getting into Europe). Snapping up players from the poorer teams etc. Basically the Old Firm model but on a smaller scale.

 

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Worth noting that Rangers haven't won a major trophy for a decade.

It was a one horse race for a considerable number of years. 

The opportunity for potential real change moving forward was squandered in 2012/13 when the SPL clubs voted to preserve the 2-10 veto ruling 😖

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2 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

Im juat about to turn 40 and it was the same at my school.aberdeen fans totally outnumbered the rest, not so much now.

 

Its not just kids JJ. Adults turn to EPL sides too, i know a few from the north east who have season tickets at old trafford. Its bad enough supporting the OF but even the OF will suffer soon enough as the super clubs in europe get bigger and hoover up more tv coverage.

I had a look at the last 16 pf the CL, one side outside the top nations have qualified this season and thats Porto. The CL is destroying football not enhancing it. Going off on a tangent here but there is a connection. The initial growth of football on TV benefited the OF but not so much now.

Sky, fifa, uefa, epl, spfl etc all for the richer bigger clubs, most of the European leagues are dominated by 1 or 2 teams, the champions league & europa league are almost unreachable for the majority of teams  much to the detriment of football, I grew up when small teams could still beat the best in cup games, Berwick Rangers, Stenhousemuir, Aberdeen (1983), Wimbledon against Liverpool FA cup final to name a few, the romance of the cup. Maybe the football wasn’t as silky but for me was certainly better to watch with less diving & cheating. Bosman also has a lot to answer for, players spitting the dummy at the slightest criticism (Pogba, Balotelli) with agents taking millions out of the game. Rant over 🤯🤯🤯

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15 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

I suppose my point is two fold.

1) If TV money started coming in fron early 90s then why did the likes of Aberdeen etc not make the same use of it that the Old Firm did to get ahead?

2) If success is largely based on money then why do we not see a more consistent order in terms of our other big teams. Aberdeen, Hibs and Hearts should have the biggest budgets outside the Old Firm but have all either been relegated or finished down the bottom in the last 20 years.

Surely the 1st step to closing the gap to the Old Firm is consistently finishing in the top 5 (getting into Europe). Snapping up players from the poorer teams etc. Basically the Old Firm model but on a smaller scale.

 

Whilst these clubs can attract better players they are not anywhere near the Old Firm level, and a lot closer in terms of talent to what other teams can afford below them, so when the even lesser teams are better coached they will then in turn get closer to the likes of Aberdeen, Dundee U, Hearts, Hibs, etc. All it takes is a bad run of form/results and these supposed big teams end up relegated. Often find 3rd place is closer to the relegated teams in terms of points than 2nd, providing 2nd is an Old Firm team of course! 

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33 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

I suppose my point is two fold.

1) If TV money started coming in fron early 90s then why did the likes of Aberdeen etc not make the same use of it that the Old Firm did to get ahead?

2) If success is largely based on money then why do we not see a more consistent order in terms of our other big teams. Aberdeen, Hibs and Hearts should have the biggest budgets outside the Old Firm but have all either been relegated or finished down the bottom in the last 20 years.

Surely the 1st step to closing the gap to the Old Firm is consistently finishing in the top 5 (getting into Europe). Snapping up players from the poorer teams etc. Basically the Old Firm model but on a smaller scale.

 

Sky have never forgiven us for picking Setanta over them and have been shortchanging Scottish football ever since. 

Most clubs run at a loss so have to sell their best players just to make ends meet. Most fans of other than the Glasgow clubs would tell you a 50/50 split of gate money is the only way to redress the balance but the advent of season tickets killed off that avenue. 

There's no easy answer and I'm afraid unless some wealthy benefactor comes along at one of the clubs not much is going to change. Even if you stumble on a once in a lifetime coach like Fergie you're not going to be able to keep hold of him 🙅‍♂️

Edited by slasher
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32 minutes ago, slasher said:

Sky have never forgiven us for picking Setanta over them and have been shortchanging Scottish football ever since. 

Most clubs run at a loss so have to sell their best players just to make ends meet. Most fans of other than the Glasgow clubs would tell you a 50/50 split of gate money is the only way to redress the balance but the advent of season tickets killed off that avenue. 

There's no easy answer and I'm afraid unless some wealthy benefactor comes along at one of the clubs not much is going to change. Even if you stumble on a once in a lifetime coach like Fergie you're not going to be able to keep hold of him 🙅‍♂️

Don’t see why clubs should split gate money 50-50, that would be ok if all teams took 1000+ to away games contributing to the gate money. One of the biggest problems with Scottish football is the number of teams in a nation of our size, Arbroath, Brechin, Forfar & Montrose in Angus, Dunfermline, Raith Rovers, East Fife & Cowdenbeath in Fife, Falkirk, East Stirling, Stenhousemuir, Alloa & Stirling Albion all within 20 or so miles. The cash pot can’t sustain so many teams, amalgamating some of these teams might help but we’ve seen the problems that caused in Inverness. Sadly it’s down to finances and football is now run by FIFA & UEFA purely for profit as has been shown by the CL & europa league, the ticket pricing for 2020 euros are astronomical in these times of covid caused financial hardship, absolutely disgraceful.

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I started typing this before the other replies, which cover some of it off:

The reason hearts, hibs Aberdeen etc. don’t always finish 3rd, 4th and 5th is that the disparity in resources between them and your bigger non city sides such as Motherwell, Killie etc. Is not anywhere near as big. With wise use of resources, good management and a bit of luck Motherwell can compete with the city clubs and likewise if you sign 32 year old crocks on 4 year contracts, you might end up in the championship... 😜

The gap in resources from Aberdeen or hibs to Celtic or Rangers is more like the gap from Celtic to Man City or Barcelona (who Celtic have competed with in one off games, but not over a campaign).
 

The draw of the old firm is multi-layered. Success attracts people, the more success the more attractive, I think people’s attitudes have changed aswell, people are way less acceptant of second best, they have so many other things they can do with their time and money. The constant promotion of 2 teams by broadcasters perpetuates all this. Cost is an issue too, the cost of football rose exponentially during the 90s and has never really re-calibrated. Hearts and Livingston are charging similar prices to some EPL clubs. If you’re watching champions league football, competing for titles or watching some of the best players in the world that’s all very well, but if you’re catching up with your mates or attending out of blind loyalty to watch a mid-table shitfest In a league you can’t ever win on a plastic pitch it’s hard to justify the financial and time cost. I could type for days about all that stuff.

The other element is of course the elephant in the room. The religious and political causes that both sides attach themselves to. Which for whatever reason is a draw for some folk.

At the moment Motherwell are the3rd most popular team in Motherwell, what Rangers and Celtic need to watch out for is them becoming everyone in Glasgow’s 2nd team after Man City, Arsenal, Liverpool....

 

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16 minutes ago, RDFH64 said:

Don’t see why clubs should split gate money 50-50, that would be ok if all teams took 1000+ to away games contributing to the gate money. One of the biggest problems with Scottish football is the number of teams in a nation of our size, Arbroath, Brechin, Forfar & Montrose in Angus, Dunfermline, Raith Rovers, East Fife & Cowdenbeath in Fife, Falkirk, East Stirling, Stenhousemuir, Alloa & Stirling Albion all within 20 or so miles. The cash pot can’t sustain so many teams, amalgamating some of these teams might help but we’ve seen the problems that caused in Inverness. Sadly it’s down to finances and football is now run by FIFA & UEFA purely for profit as has been shown by the CL & europa league, the ticket pricing for 2020 euros are astronomical in these times of covid caused financial hardship, absolutely disgraceful.

I’m not sure I agree with the “too many teams” argument.

Perhaps you could argue our “Professional” league is a bit bloated, but there’s only about 22-23 full time teams that all have a place in their community. Perhaps if you ripped it up and started again you would go for a more American model or like the pro rugby, but you can’t do that now.

Teams will just find their level and the recent introduction of the pyramid should help that.

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24 minutes ago, RDFH64 said:

Don’t see why clubs should split gate money 50-50, that would be ok if all teams took 1000+ to away games contributing to the gate money. One of the biggest problems with Scottish football is the number of teams in a nation of our size, Arbroath, Brechin, Forfar & Montrose in Angus, Dunfermline, Raith Rovers, East Fife & Cowdenbeath in Fife, Falkirk, East Stirling, Stenhousemuir, Alloa & Stirling Albion all within 20 or so miles. The cash pot can’t sustain so many teams, amalgamating some of these teams might help but we’ve seen the problems that caused in Inverness. Sadly it’s down to finances and football is now run by FIFA & UEFA purely for profit as has been shown by the CL & europa league, the ticket pricing for 2020 euros are astronomical in these times of covid caused financial hardship, absolutely disgraceful.

Gate money should be split evenly because with out two teams on the park, there will be fuck all to spectate...

 

 

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5 minutes ago, sbcmfc said:

I’m not sure I agree with the “too many teams” argument.

Perhaps you could argue our “Professional” league is a bit bloated, but there’s only about 22-23 full time teams that all have a place in their community. Perhaps if you ripped it up and started again you would go for a more American model or like the pro rugby, but you can’t do that now.

Teams will just find their level and the recent introduction of the pyramid should help that.

Agreed, the too many clubs thing is a pile of shite...the old firm are a fucking scourge, do away wae them 1st

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14 minutes ago, sbcmfc said:

I started typing this before the other replies, which cover some of it off:

The reason hearts, hibs Aberdeen etc. don’t always finish 3rd, 4th and 5th is that the disparity in resources between them and your bigger non city sides such as Motherwell, Killie etc. Is not anywhere near as big. With wise use of resources, good management and a bit of luck Motherwell can compete with the city clubs and likewise if you sign 32 year old crocks on 4 year contracts, you might end up in the championship... 😜

The gap in resources from Aberdeen or hibs to Celtic or Rangers is more like the gap from Celtic to Man City or Barcelona (who Celtic have competed with in one off games, but not over a campaign).
 

The draw of the old firm is multi-layered. Success attracts people, the more success the more attractive, I think people’s attitudes have changed aswell, people are way less acceptant of second best, they have so many other things they can do with their time and money. The constant promotion of 2 teams by broadcasters perpetuates all this. Cost is an issue too, the cost of football rose exponentially during the 90s and has never really re-calibrated. Hearts and Livingston are charging similar prices to some EPL clubs. If you’re watching champions league football, competing for titles or watching some of the best players in the world that’s all very well, but if you’re catching up with your mates or attending out of blind loyalty to watch a mid-table shitfest In a league you can’t ever win on a plastic pitch it’s hard to justify the financial and time cost. I could type for days about all that stuff.

The other element is of course the elephant in the room. The religious and political causes that both sides attach themselves to. Which for whatever reason is a draw for some folk.

At the moment Motherwell are the3rd most popular team in Motherwell, what Rangers and Celtic need to watch out for is them becoming everyone in Glasgow’s 2nd team after Man City, Arsenal, Liverpool....

 

Great post 👍

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5 minutes ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

Agreed, the too many clubs thing is a pile of shite...the old firm are a fucking scourge, do away wae them 1st

The point I was trying to make was that the small pot of money we get has to be distributed to a lot of clubs, the last thing I want is for communities to lose their local club.

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Why are the Old Firm bigger clubs though? Have they always been bigger clubs?

Potential fanbase wise there shouldnt be alot of difference between them Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen.

I accept that the difference is huge now but did the 3 teams above just miss the boat at the key point in time (mid 90s) or was the gap always going to get this big?

Im not sure I agree with the point that the gap between the Old Firm and the big 3 (if I can call them that) is much bigger than rhe big 3 and clubs like Hamilton and Ross County.

Under no circumstances should teams like Hibs and Hearts be getting relegated whilst teams with budgets like that stay up.

Im just wondering if its a mentality thing. Do any of these clubs believe they can close the gap? Do they believe they can distance themselves from smaller clubs? 

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Well historically they’ve always been the most successful, least from the 60’s as far as I know, minus the brief period of the 80’s. 

The other teams have no chance of competing now, can’t buy success because they can’t compete financially, can’t produce their own players to compete because any promising player will leave before a handful of them could be in the same team. 

Its barely a sport anymore. 

Off on a tangent now, but attitudes to football are changing for the worse in terms of supporting the big teams in Europe and we’ll see a European super league of some sorts within 20 years. 

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Religion and Irish immigrants coming over to the Glasgow factories and shipyards and getting blame for undercutting the protestants.  One half pick Rangers and the other Celtic.  It grew arms and legs from there so they have always had a huge support therefore more money.  It has been like this for 100 years except now you have Sky money and huge sponsors for the two of them.  Plus the European money that rolls in.  Can't see it changing any time soon I am afraid.

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1 hour ago, Diamond Scot said:

Why are the Old Firm bigger clubs though? Have they always been bigger clubs?

Potential fanbase wise there shouldnt be alot of difference between them Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen.

I accept that the difference is huge now but did the 3 teams above just miss the boat at the key point in time (mid 90s) or was the gap always going to get this big?

Im not sure I agree with the point that the gap between the Old Firm and the big 3 (if I can call them that) is much bigger than rhe big 3 and clubs like Hamilton and Ross County.

Under no circumstances should teams like Hibs and Hearts be getting relegated whilst teams with budgets like that stay up.

Im just wondering if its a mentality thing. Do any of these clubs believe they can close the gap? Do they believe they can distance themselves from smaller clubs? 

Has anyone mentioned that they thrive on the bigots of the country?

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34 minutes ago, Rolling hIlls said:

Religion and Irish immigrants coming over to the Glasgow factories and shipyards and getting blame for undercutting the protestants.  One half pick Rangers and the other Celtic.  It grew arms and legs from there so they have always had a huge support therefore more money.  It has been like this for 100 years except now you have Sky money and huge sponsors for the two of them.  Plus the European money that rolls in.  Can't see it changing any time soon I am afraid.

Exactly right

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