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6 minutes ago, Tartan blood said:

Clarke was just saying that he doesn't understand the clamour to bring in lots of new faces. That the WC qualifiers is not the right time to do it. He also said that Gilmour, for example, has 15 years ahead of him to break into the squad.

That's quite disheartening to hear. I'm perfectly happy with the lotalty aspect, but not at the expense of better players.

Turnbull, for instance, won young player of the year and has been a stand out performer for months. Although only 21, he has shown that he is ready for the step up. Gilmour is lacking game time, but we can all see that he is more than ready to be called upon regardless of the opposition. 

It is disheartening.  I could understand it if we were on a really good run...but we aren't.  

Results in 2020 -

  • Scotland 1-1 Israel
  • Czech Rep 1-2 Scotland (this was their 'C' team)
  • Scotland 0-0 Israel (won 5-3 on penalties)
  • Scotland 1-0 Slovakia
  • Scotland 1-0 Czech Rep
  • Serbia 1-1 Scotland (won 5-4 on penalties)
  • Slovakia 1-0 Scotland
  • Israel 1-0 Scotland

We have improved but we have a long way to go if we want to do well in the summer.  

Players should be picked on merit - not just because they were involved when we won a couple of penalty shoot-outs. 

 

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I never said McBurnie was good. He wasnt however he still did better than Griffith in those games. 

I agree that we shouldnt be chucking untried players into games like Austria however would there really be any issue subbing on Aaron Hickey for Stephen Odonnell with 30 mins remaining in a match agai

It is disheartening.  I could understand it if we were on a really good run...but we aren't.   Results in 2020 - Scotland 1-1 Israel Czech Rep 1-2 Scotland (this was their 'C' team

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17 minutes ago, Tartan blood said:

Clarke was just saying that he doesn't understand the clamour to bring in lots of new faces. That the WC qualifiers is not the right time to do it. He also said that Gilmour, for example, has 15 years ahead of him to break into the squad.

That's quite disheartening to hear. I'm perfectly happy with the lotalty aspect, but not at the expense of better players.

Turnbull, for instance, won young player of the year and has been a stand out performer for months. Although only 21, he has shown that he is ready for the step up. Gilmour is lacking game time, but we can all see that he is more than ready to be called upon regardless of the opposition. 

As much as I like Turnbull, he hasn’t shown he can do it at a higher level in the way that Gilmour and Gauld have. Turnbull was fairly anonymous whenever he played for the u21s and did nothing in the Old Firm game apart from hit some good corners. I don’t doubt his ability, but the SPFL isn’t enough. 

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10 minutes ago, PASTA Mick said:

It is disheartening.  I could understand it if we were on a really good run...but we aren't.  

Results in 2020 -

  • Scotland 1-1 Israel
  • Czech Rep 1-2 Scotland (this was their 'C' team)
  • Scotland 0-0 Israel (won 5-3 on penalties)
  • Scotland 1-0 Slovakia
  • Scotland 1-0 Czech Rep
  • Serbia 1-1 Scotland (won 5-4 on penalties)
  • Slovakia 1-0 Scotland
  • Israel 1-0 Scotland

We have improved but we have a long way to go if we want to do well in the summer.  

Players should be picked on merit - not just because they were involved when we won a couple of penalty shoot-outs. 

 

Clarke has acknowledged that we have a lot of room for improvement. But there has been a very steady upward trajectory. When he took over we were losing games to weak opposition by significant margins, deservedly. We then started reducing how many we conceded, then started winning games where we played poorly (which is not like Scotland) then the performances improved. And although we lost the last 2 games, they were probably 2 of our best performances. The last step is to perform and convert the myriad chances we create. 

So, I think the results can be a little misleading. However, I agree, we still have lots to do to be the finished article. Gauld, Gilmour and/or Turnbull could be the final piece of the puzzle.

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36 minutes ago, Tartan blood said:

Clarke was just saying that he doesn't understand the clamour to bring in lots of new faces. That the WC qualifiers is not the right time to do it. He also said that Gilmour, for example, has 15 years ahead of him to break into the squad.

That's quite disheartening to hear. I'm perfectly happy with the lotalty aspect, but not at the expense of better players.

Turnbull, for instance, won young player of the year and has been a stand out performer for months. Although only 21, he has shown that he is ready for the step up. Gilmour is lacking game time, but we can all see that he is more than ready to be called upon regardless of the opposition. 

Very disheartening.

Lets be clear here there is a very good chance Kenny McLean, Liam Palmer, Greg Taylor and John Fleck are not going to be in the running to start any of the three matches coming up. Turnbull, Gauld, Gilmour and Patterson are ones for NOW not the future but they will be a part of our future. Yes I get Clarke feels he can't be experimenting in key World Cup qualifiers but nobody will convince me that those that have missed out are inferior to some named in the squad. 

Edited by Caledonian Craig
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9 minutes ago, er yir macaroon said:

As much as I like Turnbull, he hasn’t shown he can do it at a higher level in the way that Gilmour and Gauld have. Turnbull was fairly anonymous whenever he played for the u21s and did nothing in the Old Firm game apart from hit some good corners. I don’t doubt his ability, but the SPFL isn’t enough. 

Turnbull provided a midfield masterclass versus Lille in Europe. He is one of those rare talents that can be having a relatively poor game but still create a moment of magic from nothing. His setpieces alone should be reason enough to include him. I put Griffiths in the same bracket

2 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Very disheartening.

Lets be clear here there is a very good chance Kenny McLean, Greg Taylor and John Fleck are not going to be in the running to start any of the three matches coming up. Turnbull, Gauld, Gilmour and Patterson are ones for NOW not the future but they will be a part of our future. Yes I get Clarke feels he can't be experimenting in key World Cup qualifiers but nobody will convince me that those that have missed out are inferior to some named in the squad. 

It is curious that Clarke would call up such a small squad knowing the likes of Jack and Taylor aren't fully fit. I wonder who would be the first to be called up. It's probably more likely that Callum Paterson is on reserve than the players you mentioned. (No disrespect to Paterson, who I actually quite like)

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6 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Very disheartening.

Lets be clear here there is a very good chance Kenny McLean, Greg Taylor and John Fleck are not going to be in the running to start any of the three matches coming up. Turnbull, Gauld, Gilmour and Patterson are ones for NOW not the future but they will be a part of our future. Yes I get Clarke feels he can't be experimenting in key World Cup qualifiers but nobody will convince me that those that have missed out are inferior to some named in the squad. 

Get the point of not  experimenting, but having a bench packed with experience rather than potential is very backward thinking. The only way to cap new players is to bring them of the bench if needed and then it's up to them to stake a claim.

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11 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Very disheartening.

Lets be clear here there is a very good chance Kenny McLean, Liam Palmer, Greg Taylor and John Fleck are not going to be in the running to start any of the three matches coming up. Turnbull, Gauld, Gilmour and Patterson are ones for NOW not the future but they will be a part of our future. Yes I get Clarke feels he can't be experimenting in key World Cup qualifiers but nobody will convince me that those that have missed out are inferior to some named in the squad. 

I think Turnbull and Gauld could make an argument for being hard done by for this squad, and I'd include Gilmour every time but can kinda see why Clarke didn't, but given that Gerrard played a centre back in Patterson's position yesterday then maybe he isn't quite ready for international football yet. Hickey probably deserves a go before him.

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23 minutes ago, er yir macaroon said:

As much as I like Turnbull, he hasn’t shown he can do it at a higher level in the way that Gilmour and Gauld have. Turnbull was fairly anonymous whenever he played for the u21s and did nothing in the Old Firm game apart from hit some good corners. I don’t doubt his ability, but the SPFL isn’t enough. 

I know I bore people with stats but according to who scored he made 5 key passes and had a 90% pass success rate against Rangers and that by current expectations was a poor game for him.

The three guys you mention should be in the squad, I'll even let you drop McBurnie if you want.

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5 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

Get the point of not  experimenting, but having a bench packed with experience rather than potential is very backward thinking. The only way to cap new players is to bring them of the bench if needed and then it's up to them to stake a claim.

Simple way of looking at things here is:-

Offer Norwich City Billy Gilmour for Kenny McLean and they'd rip your arm off at the shoulder.

Celtic fans would sooner have Turnbull in their side than McGregor and maybe even Christie.

Offer Rangers Liam Palmer for Callum Patterson - no deal.

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44 minutes ago, PASTA Mick said:

It is disheartening.  I could understand it if we were on a really good run...but we aren't.  

Results in 2020 -

  • Scotland 1-1 Israel
  • Czech Rep 1-2 Scotland (this was their 'C' team)
  • Scotland 0-0 Israel (won 5-3 on penalties)
  • Scotland 1-0 Slovakia
  • Scotland 1-0 Czech Rep
  • Serbia 1-1 Scotland (won 5-4 on penalties)
  • Slovakia 1-0 Scotland
  • Israel 1-0 Scotland

We have improved but we have a long way to go if we want to do well in the summer.  

Players should be picked on merit - not just because they were involved when we won a couple of penalty shoot-outs. 

 

Agreed.  I quite like Gareth Southgate's approach with his England team - he picks the players who are on form.  If someone isn't playing regularly or they're out of form, they don't make the squad. 

This is obviously easier to do when you've a large pool of players to pick from, of course.

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9 minutes ago, scotlad said:

Agreed.  I quite like Gareth Southgate's approach with his England team - he picks the players who are on form.  If someone isn't playing regularly or they're out of form, they don't make the squad. 

This is obviously easier to do when you've a large pool of players to pick from, of course.

I actually think we have a very large pool of players to choose from, which is what is causing the issues now. In the past, we'd be debating who should be in the starting 11 rather than the squad, because it generally picked itself. There are probably 40+ players we could debate over now.

I do think there is merit in playing guys that are maybe not doing so well for their club teams but excelling for country. McFadden being the prime example. BUT that is only if they are the most talented in their position.

You could argue that Gauld and Turnbull are both better than some of the guys included, PLUS they are also on form.

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44 minutes ago, wee-toon-red said:

I think Turnbull and Gauld could make an argument for being hard done by for this squad, and I'd include Gilmour every time but can kinda see why Clarke didn't, but given that Gerrard played a centre back in Patterson's position yesterday then maybe he isn't quite ready for international football yet. Hickey probably deserves a go before him.

A month or two back then yes Hickey but he is left-sided which we have an abundance of in any case. Plus in the last month or so Hickey has not played whereas Patterson has and acquitted himself very well at European club level (one step away from international level). And Patterson is right-sided which we need badly at present.

 

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24 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Simple way of looking at things here is:-

Offer Norwich City Billy Gilmour for Kenny McLean and they'd rip your arm off at the shoulder.

Celtic fans would sooner have Turnbull in their side than McGregor and maybe even Christie.

Offer Rangers Liam Palmer for Callum Patterson - no deal.

Point well made and I do agree.

I do wonder if Clarke has agonised on this but is trying to balance the morale of the group. Remember the scenes of togetherness after we qualified. Not the best squad of players in the Euros but a group who would run through brick walls for each other. What message would it send out if Clarke were suddenly to replace, say, 8 of that squad for the new kids in town. It could have an adverse affect on the squad as a whole as some players thinking he’s sold out their mates. I think I remember him saying he wanted to create a club type togetherness in the squad and gradual change would be more consistent with this approach. I’m not saying I definitely agree but I can understand it as a valid point of view. This is where old fashioned friendlies would have been good to bring in some new faces.

One thing I would say. When can you last recall having so many new players you’d like to see called up? And what about the number of rumours of young players wanted by big clubs these days. It’s not just Stephen Fletcher packing his bags for Real Madrd anymore!! Something good is happening in Scottish football.

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1 minute ago, breeks_mctavish said:

Point well made and I do agree.

I do wonder if Clarke has agonised on this but is trying to balance the morale of the group. Remember the scenes of togetherness after we qualified. Not the best squad of players in the Euros but a group who would run through brick walls for each other. What message would it send out if Clarke were suddenly to replace, say, 8 of that squad for the new kids in town. It could have an adverse affect on the squad as a whole as some players thinking he’s sold out their mates. I think I remember him saying he wanted to create a club type togetherness in the squad and gradual change would be more consistent with this approach. I’m not saying I definitely agree but I can understand it as a valid point of view. This is where old fashioned friendlies would have been good to bring in some new faces.

One thing I would say. When can you last recall having so many new players you’d like to see called up? And what about the number of rumours of young players wanted by big clubs these days. It’s not just Stephen Fletcher packing his bags for Real Madrd anymore!! Something good is happening in Scottish football.

Loyalty does not win you matches though. We need to continue to evolve and strengthen the side and four changes are not wholesale. And like I said there are at least 6 to 8 players in that squad who won't be starting any of the three matches barring big injuries so cannot see what the gamble is.

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5 minutes ago, breeks_mctavish said:

Point well made and I do agree.

I do wonder if Clarke has agonised on this but is trying to balance the morale of the group. Remember the scenes of togetherness after we qualified. Not the best squad of players in the Euros but a group who would run through brick walls for each other. What message would it send out if Clarke were suddenly to replace, say, 8 of that squad for the new kids in town. It could have an adverse affect on the squad as a whole as some players thinking he’s sold out their mates. I think I remember him saying he wanted to create a club type togetherness in the squad and gradual change would be more consistent with this approach. I’m not saying I definitely agree but I can understand it as a valid point of view. This is where old fashioned friendlies would have been good to bring in some new faces.

One thing I would say. When can you last recall having so many new players you’d like to see called up? And what about the number of rumours of young players wanted by big clubs these days. It’s not just Stephen Fletcher packing his bags for Real Madrd anymore!! Something good is happening in Scottish football.

I agree, I watch the comments on this board and I say to myself, I don't think there are many people managers who frequent this board. Team chemistry is a special ingredient, one that is a multiplier. I do think Clarke could have called up one or two extras, as he has the perfect cover with triple headers but limited with a 23 match day squad. 

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7 minutes ago, breeks_mctavish said:

Point well made and I do agree.

I do wonder if Clarke has agonised on this but is trying to balance the morale of the group. Remember the scenes of togetherness after we qualified. Not the best squad of players in the Euros but a group who would run through brick walls for each other. What message would it send out if Clarke were suddenly to replace, say, 8 of that squad for the new kids in town. It could have an adverse affect on the squad as a whole as some players thinking he’s sold out their mates. I think I remember him saying he wanted to create a club type togetherness in the squad and gradual change would be more consistent with this approach. I’m not saying I definitely agree but I can understand it as a valid point of view. This is where old fashioned friendlies would have been good to bring in some new faces.

One thing I would say. When can you last recall having so many new players you’d like to see called up? And what about the number of rumours of young players wanted by big clubs these days. It’s not just Stephen Fletcher packing his bags for Real Madrd anymore!! Something good is happening in Scottish football.

Well said. Totally agree.

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1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Simple way of looking at things here is:-

Offer Norwich City Billy Gilmour for Kenny McLean and they'd rip your arm off at the shoulder.

 

If Norwich's next game was a Championship playoff tie which of the two would they play?

There in lies the problem. Pretty obvious who the better player is but I am pretty sure he would be on the bench.

Give you the other two lol.

Edited by ceudmilefailte
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40 minutes ago, breeks_mctavish said:

One thing I would say. When can you last recall having so many new players you’d like to see called up? And what about the number of rumours of young players wanted by big clubs these days. It’s not just Stephen Fletcher packing his bags for Real Madrd anymore!! Something good is happening in Scottish football.

I did wonder for a while if this trend was just because of having easier access to information, and we simply hear about it more. But the past year has proved that is not the case.

Up until now, we'd be lucky to add 1 or 2 new internationals to the fold every other year. I used to genuinely dread thinking about the likes of Brown, Miller, Caldwell etc retiring because there was no one to replace them. Now we have a plethora of talent, and even the "problem" positions look like they have some viable options in the next couple of years.

Edited by Tartan blood
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1 hour ago, Tartan blood said:

I actually think we have a very large pool of players to choose from, which is what is causing the issues now. In the past, we'd be debating who should be in the starting 11 rather than the squad, because it generally picked itself. There are probably 40+ players we could debate over now.

I do think there is merit in playing guys that are maybe not doing so well for their club teams but excelling for country. McFadden being the prime example. BUT that is only if they are the most talented in their position.

You could argue that Gauld and Turnbull are both better than some of the guys included, PLUS they are also on form.

In midfield we certainly have some strength in depth, although, to be fair, none of the midfielders selected are in poor form.  On the other hand, we have a centre forward in the squad who has scored one goal all season and hasn't scored an international goal in fourteen appearances.

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I agree that we shouldnt be chopping and chaning the regular starting 11 due to a slight drop in club form but there is no reason not to drop a squad player for another should the form of the new player be better.

An example would be Ryan Christie. He has been a starter. Club form slightly dropped. No way should he not make the squad.

However Palmer, Considine, McLean, Taylor etc are not established starters. There is no reason not to swap these guys for younger players who can then push for a starting berth.

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3 hours ago, Tartan blood said:

Clarke was just saying that he doesn't understand the clamour to bring in lots of new faces. That the WC qualifiers is not the right time to do it. He also said that Gilmour, for example, has 15 years ahead of him to break into the squad.

That's quite disheartening to hear. I'm perfectly happy with the lotalty aspect, but not at the expense of better players.

Turnbull, for instance, won young player of the year and has been a stand out performer for months. Although only 21, he has shown that he is ready for the step up. Gilmour is lacking game time, but we can all see that he is more than ready to be called upon regardless of the opposition. 

I seen that exact interview and I took away pretty much the same thought process as yourself. Another thing Clarke said stood out to me from it was this too - 

“He is a good prospect, Billy, but he is only 19 years of age. He has 15 years in front of him so he has plenty of time to push his way into the Scotland national team

It’s an old fashioned mindset I’d have hope we left behind if they are in form let a few get in to get that experience. With billy he’s not had much game time but played yesterday and was outstanding  against Sheffield United and his technical ability is there for everyone to see.
 

I do understand the loyalty aspect as some others have said, Clarke was very passionate on building a club like mindset with players ready to run through a brick wall for each other and the country and get to have a system they all understand so calling up a raft of new players could disrupt that, but there does come a time when you look and say the likes of Gauld Turnbull Patterson and even Gilmour despite the lack of game time where to be included they would improve our squad technically big time aswell as being some of brightest prospects long term. 


 

Edited by ElChris04
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59 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

If Norwich's next game was a Championship playoff tie which of the two would they play?

There in lies the problem. Pretty obvious who the better player is but I am pretty sure he would be on the bench.

Give you the other two lol.

Well not really as McLean is well bedded into the Norwich City side but certainly not bedded into the Scotland starting line-up. What does he bring to the squad? Nowhere near as much as Gilmour hence he is plying his trade in the Championship and Gilmour is at an EPL club in the business end of the Champions League.

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2 minutes ago, ElChris04 said:

I seen that exact interview and I took away more negativity then I did positively. Especially with this quote from it 

“He is a good prospect, Billy, but he is only 19 years of age. He has 15 years in front of him so he has plenty of time to push his way into the Scotland national team

It’s an old fashioned mindset I’d have hope we left behind if they are in form let a few get in to get that experience. With billy he’s not had much game time but played yesterday and was outstanding  against Sheffield United and his technical ability is there for everyone to see.
 

I do understand the loyalty aspect as some others have said, Clarke was very passionate on building a club like mindset with players ready to run through a brick wall for each other and the country and get to have a system they all understand so calling up a raft of new players could disrupt that, but there does come a time when you look and say the likes of Gauld Turnbull Patterson and even Gilmour where to be included they would improve our squad technically big time. 


 

Exactly.

When did Michael Owen make his debut for England? I think he may have been 17. Darren Fletcher was similar. And look at how well Wales have done bedding in youngsters with potential in to their squad even prior to having buckets load of club football experience.

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