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9 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Definitely.

I do think about this often these days. 

If we were to try, and fail, again, I think that would be it for me as I really cant afford the mental exhaustion it creates. I would just need to ignore politics completely as it would keep sucking me in. I think that is why this election is so important as it could be make or break. 

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5 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Is it though? 

Abnormally early puberty is called precocious puberty and is characterized by the early development of sexual characteristics in girls before the age of 8 and in boys before the age of 9. Most children with the disorder grow fast at first, but also finish growing before reaching their full genetic height potential. Left untreated, most boys will not grow taller than 5 feet 2 inches, and girls often do not grow taller than 5 feet.

https://childrensnational.org/visit/conditions-and-treatments/diabetes-hormonal-disorders/precocious-puberty

yeah it is.

There's a need to stop puberty to allievate a medical problem down the road.

 

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12 minutes ago, phart said:

yeah it is.

There's a need to stop puberty to allievate a medical problem down the road.

 

But there’s no or little evidence that this is an effective and safe treatment for children experiencing gender dysphoria.

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Bell-v-Tavistock-Judgment.pdf

“We express that view for these reasons. First, the clinical interventions involve significant, long-term and, in part, potentially irreversible long-term physical, and psychological consequences for young persons. The treatment involved is truly life changing, going as it does to the very heart of an individual’s identity. Secondly, at present, it is right to call the treatment experimental or innovative in the sense that there are currently limited studies/evidence of the efficacy or long-term effects of the treatment.”

“A child under 16 may only consent to the use of medication intended to suppress puberty where he or she is competent to understand the nature of the treatment. That includes an understanding of the immediate and long-term consequences of the treatment, the limited evidence available as to its efficacy or purpose, the fact that the vast majority of patients proceed to the use of cross-sex hormones, and its potential life changing consequences for a child. There will be enormous difficulties in a child under 16 understanding and weighing up this information and deciding whether to consent to the use of puberty blocking medication. It is highly unlikely that a child aged 13 or under would be competent to give consent to the administration of puberty blockers. It is doubtful that a child aged 14 or 15 could understand and weigh the long-term risks and consequences of the administration of puberty blockers.”


https://acpeds.org/topics/sexuality-issues-of-youth/gender-confusion-and-transgender-identity/deconstructing-transgender-pediatrics

In fact, many medical organizations around the world, including the Australian College of Physicians,3 the Royal College of General Practitioners in the United Kingdom,4 and the Swedish National Council for Medical Ethics5 have characterized these interventions in children as experimental and dangerous. World renowned Swedish psychiatrist Dr. Christopher Gillberg has said that pediatric transition is “possibly one of the greatest scandals in medical history”6 and called for “an immediate moratorium on the use of puberty blocker drugs because of their unknown long-term effects.”7

The vast majority of children with gender incongruence will outgrow it by young adulthood8and the vast majority of gender incongruent teens are struggling with other psychological diagnoses that predate their gender incongruence.9 A recent report confirmed the findings of several older case series revealing that gender incongruent adolescents can embrace their bodies through counseling alone when it is directed toward underlying psychological issues.

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3 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

But there’s no or little evidence that this is an effective and safe treatment for children experiencing gender dysphoria.

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Bell-v-Tavistock-Judgment.pdf

“We express that view for these reasons. First, the clinical interventions involve significant, long-term and, in part, potentially irreversible long-term physical, and psychological consequences for young persons. The treatment involved is truly life changing, going as it does to the very heart of an individual’s identity. Secondly, at present, it is right to call the treatment experimental or innovative in the sense that there are currently limited studies/evidence of the efficacy or long-term effects of the treatment.”

“A child under 16 may only consent to the use of medication intended to suppress puberty where he or she is competent to understand the nature of the treatment. That includes an understanding of the immediate and long-term consequences of the treatment, the limited evidence available as to its efficacy or purpose, the fact that the vast majority of patients proceed to the use of cross-sex hormones, and its potential life changing consequences for a child. There will be enormous difficulties in a child under 16 understanding and weighing up this information and deciding whether to consent to the use of puberty blocking medication. It is highly unlikely that a child aged 13 or under would be competent to give consent to the administration of puberty blockers. It is doubtful that a child aged 14 or 15 could understand and weigh the long-term risks and consequences of the administration of puberty blockers.”


https://acpeds.org/topics/sexuality-issues-of-youth/gender-confusion-and-transgender-identity/deconstructing-transgender-pediatrics

In fact, many medical organizations around the world, including the Australian College of Physicians,3 the Royal College of General Practitioners in the United Kingdom,4 and the Swedish National Council for Medical Ethics5 have characterized these interventions in children as experimental and dangerous. World renowned Swedish psychiatrist Dr. Christopher Gillberg has said that pediatric transition is “possibly one of the greatest scandals in medical history”6 and called for “an immediate moratorium on the use of puberty blocker drugs because of their unknown long-term effects.”7

The vast majority of children with gender incongruence will outgrow it by young adulthood8and the vast majority of gender incongruent teens are struggling with other psychological diagnoses that predate their gender incongruence.9 A recent report confirmed the findings of several older case series revealing that gender incongruent adolescents can embrace their bodies through counseling alone when it is directed toward underlying psychological issues.

That proves my point though as your evidence shows

an immediate moratorium on the use of puberty blocker drugs because of their unknown long-term effects.

Yet they're used for precocious puberty and have been for decades with no issue.

Then we look at the legal case

"It is highly unlikely that a child aged 13 or under would be competent to give consent to the administration of puberty blockers. It is doubtful that a child aged 14 or 15 could understand and weigh the long-term risks and consequences of the administration of puberty blockers.”

Again used in children at 8 year old.

So that takes it back to my original question

"The same with "puberty blockers" they've been given to children for decades in treating precocious puberty and no one has said anything that I can see. it only becomes an issue again when Trans comes into it. "

You answered by saying "Probably because the former is evidence based treatment and the latter isn’t.  "

Yet when asked to present evidence, the evidence states they don't know the long-term effects and children are two young to give informed consent. Which isn't showing the differences between the two treatments.

I'd like to see some comparative studies so we can properly evaluate this as they're is most certainly nuances i'm missing. Like the weighting to risks etc or the added risk of them starting cross hormone treatment while using puberty blockers with would be a confounder and I suspect that's the differentiator as using them for early puberty doesn't inclde cross hormone treatment too. You've bot brought that up though so I can't put works in your mouth.

 

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5 hours ago, thplinth said:

Nicola Sturgeon has already pissed all over the launch of ALBA. 

Did that really come as a surprise. I could have told you that would happen the second after hearing about ALBA being launched. I could also have scripted the replies on here and told you exactly who would be saying it. (I can't be sure if the pantomime of pretending to make your mind up is for our benefit or for your own.)

So I don't think there is anything the SNP can say at this point that will damage the ALBA vote anymore than it already had.

In fact I think that the continued attempts to rubbish ALBA by elements within the SNP are now likely hurting the SNP1 vote more than the ALBA2 vote. 

I don't think the SNP are going to be able to campaign properly during this election. I think instead we will witness them attacking ALBA. They will be like a dog returning to its own vomit over and over. They wont be able to resist. 

Very hard to predict how that will play out with the voters. Probably just hurt both parties is my guess.

Pretty much my hole local branch will be voting Alba, i am pretty proud of that

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9 minutes ago, phart said:

That proves my point though as your evidence shows

an immediate moratorium on the use of puberty blocker drugs because of their unknown long-term effects.

Yet they're used for precocious puberty and have been for decades with no issue.

Then we look at the legal case

"It is highly unlikely that a child aged 13 or under would be competent to give consent to the administration of puberty blockers. It is doubtful that a child aged 14 or 15 could understand and weigh the long-term risks and consequences of the administration of puberty blockers.”

Again used in children at 8 year old.

So that takes it back to my original question

"The same with "puberty blockers" they've been given to children for decades in treating precocious puberty and no one has said anything that I can see. it only becomes an issue again when Trans comes into it. "

You answered by saying "Probably because the former is evidence based treatment and the latter isn’t.  "

Yet when asked to present evidence, the evidence states they don't know the long-term effects and children are two young to give informed consent. Which isn't showing the differences between the two treatments.

I'd like to see some comparative studies so we can properly evaluate this as they're is most certainly nuances i'm missing. Like the weighting to risks etc or the added risk of them starting cross hormone treatment while using puberty blockers with would be a confounder and I suspect that's the differentiator as using them for early puberty doesn't inclde cross hormone treatment too. You've bot brought that up though so I can't put works in your mouth.

 

I don’t know a lot about precocious puberty but isn’t it a medical condition that doctors can treat with puberty blockers, while in children with gender dysphoria puberty blockers are suppressing puberty in an otherwise normally developing child, so wouldn’t the physical results be different in each group?

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8 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

Folk need to remember that this whole gender shite is playing out between a few hundred folk on twitter, its not a reflection on the general public,, 

And yet it’s caused conflict within all the main parties in Scotland, Andy Wightman left the Greens, it’s partly resulted in Alba having so many members etc. 

You’re right about your average voter though. 

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22 hours ago, phart said:

Is this the new ALBA political campaign now? SNP are pedo enablers vote for us.

 

But also vote for them! 😳 They are making no sense - they demand you vote SNP for the consistency whilst listing a bunch of reasons you shouldn't and then claim it is all the other indy supporters who are working against indy!

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3 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Definitely.

I do think about this often these days. 

I quite fancy a nice bowl of cereal!

 

During the indyref campaign for the 2014 vote I felt a sense of hope and optimism for a better future now our politics is starting to stink just about as much as UK politics and I am beginning to wonder if we can achieve that hopeful future building a new country. If it is being built by some of those at the heart of the SNP and Alba I very much doubt it! There are some incredibly toxic and unpleasant individuals trying to shape our future.

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15 minutes ago, Lamia said:

But also vote for them! 😳 They are making no sense - they demand you vote SNP for the consistency whilst listing a bunch of reasons you shouldn't and then claim it is all the other indy supporters who are working against indy!

Constituency candidates, NOT paedos, List candidates paedos, repeat until

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1 hour ago, ParisInAKilt said:

I don’t know a lot about precocious puberty but isn’t it a medical condition that doctors can treat with puberty blockers, while in children with gender dysphoria puberty blockers are suppressing puberty in an otherwise normally developing child, so wouldn’t the physical results be different in each group?

I hardly know anything at all. I'm trying to find out more.

Reading the literature I suspect it's the combination of blockers with crosss hormone therapy (or whatever it is called) that is the problem.

More studies would be good I think.

 

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24 minutes ago, Lamia said:

I quite fancy a nice bowl of cereal!

 

During the indyref campaign for the 2014 vote I felt a sense of hope and optimism for a better future now our politics is starting to stink just about as much as UK politics and I am beginning to wonder if we can achieve that hopeful future building a new country. If it is being built by some of those at the heart of the SNP and Alba I very much doubt it! There are some incredibly toxic and unpleasant individuals trying to shape our future.

Partisans do that, ends justify the means and all that. The fault lies with the other.. never with you type of thinking.

 

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3 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

 Funnily enough I was having a joke recently with Orraloon where he was mocking my indecision,  but in a fun way. But I didnt think you were referring specifically to me, it was more collective of any one who was still unsure, quite a few have expressed their uncertainty. I was just using myself as an example. 

We will leave it at that as we have probably both said all that is needed. 

It's just part of our good cop, bad cop routine. Can you tell which is which?

The decision is easy.

Constituency - SNP

Regional - ALBA.

Once you have made the decision you will feel much better. You can always change your mind again later. ;) But, don't let any of that twitter crap influence your decision, that's all totally irrelevant.

 

Edited by Orraloon
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35 minutes ago, thplinth said:

Oh I don't think there is any doubt that the spirit of 2014 is dead.

It died the moment Sturgeon initiated the stitch-up of Salmond. That was the precise second it died.

But hey ho, life deals you lemons you make lemonaaid. :lol:

At least though Scottish voters will have the chance to get rid of those who they don't feel represent them, which is a still an advantage over the current system dominated by Westminster.

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1 hour ago, phart said:

Partisans do that, ends justify the means and all that. The fault lies with the other.. never with you type of thinking.

 

I appear to be unable to multi-quote but there is a classic example of this only a few posts up from this!

Edited by Lamia
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Although it does all trace back to that insane decision by Sturgeon sometime in 2017, I never thought it would result in a split in the SNP like it has.

I knew there was something very wrong with what was going on fairly early on but it took years for the truth to slowly emerge and even now the most damning bits are still being kept secret. 

Initially I thought it was just ignorance of the facts (which had been concealed) and when awareness of what was done grew, then Sturgeon etc would be forced out by an outraged SNP membership.

Boy was I wrong. Even now to this day Sturgeon and her supporters including the handful on here have not admitted to a single mistake or error or misdeed, not a thing. 

Instead of acknowledging any of it, they double down on it and just re-smear the man as if it is 2017 all over again. People talk about a cult... 

You know if we are all being honest here there are a handful of regular pro Sturgeon folk on here who give me the boak at this point. The idea of being in the same political party with them gives me the boak. It is done. No one is arguing about that.

As I said I think this is a pivotal moment for the independence movement.

I think ALBA is an extremely clever move, a way to take something potentially damaging, the split, and convert it into something positive, the super majority.

But personally speaking I am struggling to give a shit anymore. I have been following this sorry saga for a few years now and it has inevitably jaded my view of independence. I'll see it out now and see what happens in May. I honestly thought this would all have resolved by now but it just rolls on and on... May looks a good point to take up gardening or buy a dog or something.

I can honestly say hand on my heart at this point, I don't give a fuck who any of you vote for. Good luck to you all.

Edited by thplinth
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1 hour ago, phart said:

I hardly know anything at all. I'm trying to find out more.

Reading the literature I suspect it's the combination of blockers with crosss hormone therapy (or whatever it is called) that is the problem.

More studies would be good I think.

 

Yeah definitely. 

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1 hour ago, Orraloon said:

It's just part of our good cop, bad cop routine. Can you tell which is which?

The decision is easy.

Constituency - SNP

Regional - ALBA.

Once you have made the decision you will feel much better. You can always change your mind again later. ;) But, don't let any of that twitter crap influence your decision, that's all totally irrelevant.

 

Can I ask if it matters who the candidates are and what they say or will you vote for them regardless?

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3 minutes ago, thplinth said:

 

Boy was I wrong. Even now to this day Sturgeon and her supporters including the handful on here have not admitted to a single mistake or error or misdeed, not a thing. 

 

Yes they have. But you just continue the Trumpian behaviour 

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1 hour ago, Lamia said:

I quite fancy a nice bowl of cereal!

 

During the indyref campaign for the 2014 vote I felt a sense of hope and optimism for a better future now our politics is starting to stink just about as much as UK politics and I am beginning to wonder if we can achieve that hopeful future building a new country. If it is being built by some of those at the heart of the SNP and Alba I very much doubt it! There are some incredibly toxic and unpleasant individuals trying to shape our future.

Agreed. 

Be nice to see more independent candidates but it does seem like we just replicate Westminster in more ways than we’d like to admit. 

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