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56 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

The full ahead to independence approach is off-putting to many that the Yes movement will need to convince to vote Yes in IndyRef2.

I'd say we have around 35 to 40% who will vote yes - pretty much guaranteed. They would love the full ahead at top speed approach as would I but that is not going to win IndyRef2.

The key group are the waiverers/don't knows which I'd say is around 20% of people. Those are the people the Yes movement need to convince to vote Yes. And their caution is one which goes hand in hand with the slow approach to IndyRef2. They will be more likely to vote Yes if they see that those in power backing independence are acting responsibly about the pandemic. Think about it. Think about the free ammunition Better Together2 will be given if the Yes movement/SNP were to be pushing right now for IndyRef2 with the pandemic still in the forefront. Jeez it would be manner from heaven for the unionists. They'd play it like Yehudi Menuhin playing a violin and those waiverers/don't knows would be far more likely to fall for it and vote No and IndyRef2 would then be lost.

I don't disagree with what you've said but you misunderstand what I mean when I say full steam ahead. I'm not talking about having a referendum in the next year, I'm talking about doing all the preparation and making the case now so that when we allegedly have a referendum near the end of this parliament we've convinced the majority of the country to vote yes.

If the SNP intend to have a referendum before the end of this parliament then they need to start campaigning for it and making preparations RIGHT NOW, not two years down the line. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

I don't disagree with what you've said but you misunderstand what I mean when I say full steam ahead. I'm not talking about having a referendum in the next year, I'm talking about doing all the preparation and making the case now so that when we allegedly have a referendum near the end of this parliament we've convinced the majority of the country to vote yes.

If the SNP intend to have a referendum before the end of this parliament then they need to start campaigning for it and making preparations RIGHT NOW, not two years down the line. 

 

I agree preparations need to be made but I dont think campaigning is a good idea right now. Unless you just mean subtly like highlighting Scotland's  strengths at every opportunity and exposing Westminster’s lies.  

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1 minute ago, Freeedom said:

I don't disagree with what you've said but you misunderstand what I mean when I say full steam ahead. I'm not talking about having a referendum in the next year, I'm talking about doing all the preparation and making the case now so that when we allegedly have a referendum near the end of this parliament we've convinced the majority of the country to vote yes.

If the SNP intend to have a referendum before the end of this parliament then they need to start campaigning for it and making preparations RIGHT NOW, not two years down the line. 

 

Well we don't know what preparations are going on behind the scenes. I'd hope that is where the serious planning is going on thinking out all policies on it. I'd like to think it is work that has been going on in the background for a number of years.

Even making the case for independence by the SNP would be seen as clearly and deliberately taking their eye of the pandemic ball. Unionist parties would savage them and paint it as indy bad and possibly put off potential yes voters.

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Just now, TDYER63 said:

 Unless you just mean subtly like highlighting Scotland's  strengths at every opportunity and exposing Westminster’s lies.  

That's exactly what I mean, except I don't think there is any reason to be subtle about it. Our MPs need to talk confidently about what a great country an independent Scotland could be. We need to make people believe in us as a country and we can only do that if we talk confidently and assertively about the benefits of independence. Absolutely no more wishy washy gradualist crap.

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3 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

That's exactly what I mean, except I don't think there is any reason to be subtle about it. Our MPs need to talk confidently about what a great country an independent Scotland could be. We need to make people believe in us as a country and we can only do that if we talk confidently and assertively about the benefits of independence. Absolutely no more wishy washy gradualist crap.

Yes I agree with you there.

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4 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

That's exactly what I mean, except I don't think there is any reason to be subtle about it. Our MPs need to talk confidently about what a great country an independent Scotland could be. We need to make people believe in us as a country and we can only do that if we talk confidently and assertively about the benefits of independence. Absolutely no more wishy washy gradualist crap.

When I said subtle I didnt mean lacking in confidence, I meant not sounding like crazy aggressive flag waving zealots. 
I think confidence is key to winning people over but it has to be backed up by facts and plans that cant be manipulated by unionists . Thats what they need to work on. 

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On 5/19/2021 at 10:14 PM, hampden_loon2878 said:

Somerville is the biggest waste of space ever, and seems to keep her job regardless of how useless she is!!, maybe this will finally see her being sacked from the cabinet,,  

It crossed my mind that this was a ploy by Nicola Sturgeon to justify getting shot of her once and for all!

Sommerville made virtually no progress with social security, with the exception of the Scottish Child Payment, which is so straightforward a monkey could have delivered it.

To be fair, social security benefits are far more complex than a lot of people realise, especially where disability is a factor, but sorting out the education system won't exactly be a walk in the park either.  If she really is the best person the SNP have to take on that role then that's worrying.

On a brighter note, it would appear that she'll be shadowed by the political heavyweight that is Oliver Mundell.  🤭

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10 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

When I said subtle I didnt mean lacking in confidence, I meant not sounding like crazy aggressive flag waving zealots. 
I think confidence is key to winning people over but it has to be backed up by facts and plans that cant be manipulated by unionists . Thats what they need to work on. 

I don't think there is anything wrong with waving the flag or of calling oneself a nationalist either, the Scottish cringe is rampant and you can only tackle that with pride. I'll wave the flag all day long.

I think the "getting on with the day job" Tory nonsense line that the SNP think they somehow need to have been playing along with for the last five years has run it's course.

They need to start publicly addressing the people with better arguments about the economy, the currency, monarchy, pensions, the EU etc. If they start doing that and stop shying away from the argument then we MIGHT be ready for a referendum before the end of the parliament.

Edited by Freeedom
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On 5/19/2021 at 1:46 PM, Lamia said:

I am gobsmacked by the Sommerville appointment. 😳

😂

On 5/19/2021 at 2:27 PM, Alibi said:

She's the one who said at a rally somewhere that transwomen are women.  With ignorance like that, she's not really cut out for education.  I'd hazard a guess she's only getting the job because she's one of the Woko Haram mob that Nicola Sturgeon doesn't want to offend.

Shirley Anne Sommerville... sort of rolls off the tongue... like quid pro quo.

Be careful what you say or you could be Craig Murray'd.

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4 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

I don't think there is anything wrong with waving the flag or of calling oneself a nationalist either, the Scottish cringe is rampant and you can only tackle that with pride. I'll wave the flag all day long.

I think the "getting on with the day job" Tory nonsense line that the SNP think they somehow need to have been playing along with for the last five years has run it's course.

They need to start publicly addressing the people with better arguments about the economy, the currency, monarchy, pensions, the EU etc. If they start doing that and stop shying away from the argument then we MIGHT be ready for a referendum before the end of the parliament.

I am not criticising anyone who is proud to wave the flag, I often wear a flag round me at Scotland games.  I am thinking of how to win over the people who dont feel overly nationalistic. They want facts and figures, not flag waving. 
Part of getting on with the day job is getting things like education back on track.  Much as I detest the unionist hypocrisy, showing competency in government is halfway to converting people to Yes. 

 

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4 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I am not criticising anyone who is proud to wave the flag, I often wear a flag round me at Scotland games.  I am thinking of how to win over the people who dont feel overly nationalistic. They want facts and figures, not flag waving. 
Part of getting on with the day job is getting things like education back on track.  Much as I detest the unionist hypocrisy, showing competency in government is halfway to converting people to Yes. 

 

We need to do both. We need to make people feel more pride and confidence when they talk about their country, we need to more effectively address the three words wee, poor and stupid because none of it is true and a lot of people still believe it. 

As much as Nigel Farage is a complete bigot we could learn a lot from his completely unapologetically English brexit campaign because he almost single handedly beat the establishment. The man spoke with complete confidence and he brought people on board. We don't have a figure like him in Scottish politics but we could do with a completely unapologetically pro independence figure who will always make the positive case and take any opportunity to talk about independence. He smiles! Sturgeon is constantly scowling at the camera.

Right now we're in the middle of a pandemic, people have lost their jobs and loved ones, confidence is low. But Scotland are going to the Euros, we should capitalise on that  and use this time to talk about the potential to transform Scotland into a better country, where exactly is that vision coming from? Because it's not the SNP.

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I don't even vote SNP but you can't form a goverment then go full steam ahead for independence. There are inherent responsibilities in forming a government it would be a dereliction of duty to eschew them in favour of a single policy.

This should be evident to everyone but independence monomaniacs

 

Edited by phart
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4 minutes ago, phart said:

I don't even vote SNP but you can't form a goverment then go full steam ahead for independence. There are inherent responsibilities in forming a government it would be a dereliction of duty to eschew them in favour of a single policy.

This should be evident to everyone but independence monomaniacs

 

don't be a can't

 

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Just to clarify, the 'full steam ahead' was a figure of speech.😃

Point is, the SNP have already had 7 years SINCE 2014. I should probbaly have gone with - These Appointments dont exactly suggest they are about to 'get the fucking finger out' 👍

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23 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

We need to do both. We need to make people feel more pride and confidence when they talk about their country, we need to more effectively address the three words wee, poor and stupid because none of it is true and a lot of people still believe it. 

As much as Nigel Farage is a complete bigot we could learn a lot from his completely unapologetically English brexit campaign because he almost single handedly beat the establishment. The man spoke with complete confidence and he brought people on board. We don't have a figure like him in Scottish politics but we could do with a completely unapologetically pro independence figure who will always make the positive case and take any opportunity to talk about independence. He smiles! Sturgeon is constantly scowling at the camera.

Right now we're in the middle of a pandemic, people have lost their jobs and loved ones, confidence is low. But Scotland are going to the Euros, we should capitalise on that  and use this time to talk about the potential to transform Scotland into a better country, where exactly is that vision coming from? Because it's not the SNP.

I think a figurehead separate  to the SNP Is a good idea though I am not convinced a Nigel Farage type person would work up here,  I am not sure this country is patriotic enough to buy into that. 
Its a pity the Euros has been restricted by Covid as I really do think a full strength tournament would give the country a confidence boost. There is no doubt whatsover that the success and feel good factor  of the golf and Commonwealth games played a part in helping the Yes cause in 2014. 

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8 minutes ago, Jim Beem said:

Just to clarify, the 'full steam ahead' was a figure of speech.😃

Point is, the SNP have already had 7 years SINCE 2014. I should probbaly have gone with - These Appointments dont exactly suggest they are about to 'get the fucking finger out' 👍

I am pretty sure Barrs could come up with a good advert 😊

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3 hours ago, Jim Beem said:

Just to clarify, the 'full steam ahead' was a figure of speech.😃

Point is, the SNP have already had 7 years SINCE 2014. I should probbaly have gone with - These Appointments dont exactly suggest they are about to 'get the fucking finger out' 👍

Is it 7 years though? They should have tried for an independence referendum the day after losing an independence referendum, would be the implication of that reasoning.

I don't know enough about the people named to then use them as a metric for measuring commitment to an independence referendum. In fact I don't know how one can be used to measure the other. I suspect they can't be.

This parliamentary term is the one it must happen in though. I agree with that.

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18 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

It's not me who keeps throwing jabs, you keep misrepresenting what I say. Not sure what your problem is?

I don't think i spoke to you at all, untill you called me a can't. Let alone misrepresenting things. I was responding to the "full speed ahead" by Jim. Which he clarified.

So having never spoken to you i'm a bit bemused why you think i'm throwing jabs and have a problem. You're the one that butted into a conversation to use a perjorative. Do you think you might be projecting or is there another reason?

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5 hours ago, Freeedom said:

I don't think there is anything wrong with waving the flag or of calling oneself a nationalist either, the Scottish cringe is rampant and you can only tackle that with pride. I'll wave the flag all day long.

I think the "getting on with the day job" Tory nonsense line that the SNP think they somehow need to have been playing along with for the last five years has run it's course.

They need to start publicly addressing the people with better arguments about the economy, the currency, monarchy, pensions, the EU etc. If they start doing that and stop shying away from the argument then we MIGHT be ready for a referendum before the end of the parliament.

Sturgeon has tried to eradicate the nationalism in the SNP, they seem to forget that is the purpose of the SNP!! It was created to gain scotland her independence,, i am as unashamedly patriotic scot as you get, half of my work colleagues are English and they love the passion i show for Scotland,, they get it, i am pro scottish and not one bit anti English.Its as if the SNP are somehow ashamed to come out as patriotic,, there certainly is a bit of the scottish cringe creeping in 

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16 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

Sturgeon has tried to eradicate the nationalism in the SNP, they seem to forget that is the purpose of the SNP!! It was created to gain scotland her independence,, i am as unashamedly patriotic scot as you get, half of my work colleagues are English and they love the passion i show for Scotland,, they get it, i am pro scottish and not one bit anti English.Its as if the SNP are somehow ashamed to come out as patriotic,, there certainly is a bit of the scottish cringe creeping in 

They are letting the unionists drive the narrative. When unionists make disparaging comments about flag waving nationalism the SNP should reply with "and so what? We are proud to be Scottish", not this timid nonsense that placates their derisory attitude towards the country. It's been timid half in, half out independence since 2012 and that can only get you so far. To actually get across the finishing line you need to have your head held high and bring the people with you.

I know none of this is material in the sense that it has nothing to do with policy relating to people's every day lives, but having a ruthless can do attitude will go a long way to winning us independence.

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10 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

They are letting the unionists drive the narrative. When unionists make disparaging comments about flag waving nationalism the SNP should reply with "and so what? We are proud to be Scottish", not this timid nonsense that placates their derisory attitude towards the country. It's been timid half in, half out independence since 2012 and that can only get you so far. To actually get across the finishing line you need to have your head held high and bring the people with you.

I know none of this is material in the sense that it has nothing to do with policy relating to people's every day lives, but having a ruthless can do attitude will go a long way to winning us independence.

Yes I do see what you are saying.

Unionists use the term nationalism as if it is something poisonous but yet they are far bigger nationalists themselves and they don't see theirs as an issue. We should not be cowed by their words.

Edited by Caledonian Craig
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2 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Yes I do see what you are saying.

Unionists use the term nationalism is if it is something poisonous but yet they are far bigger nationalists themselves and they don't see theirs as an issue. 

It's part of the hypocrisy of the unionist position, Union Jacks ok Scotland flags bad.

We've let them get away with that crap since forever. We don't always need to be on the defensive, let's own it. If we want to convince the mibbees aye mibbees naw crowd then we have to lead them over the finish line because they are not going to follow a government that seems unsure about who it is or where it wants to go. If we want independence we have to own it. They will be swayed by the wind on the economy and although we need solid answers, we also need to push that agenda with confidence.

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2 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

It's part of the hypocrisy of the unionist position, Union Jacks ok Scotland flags bad.

We've let them get away with that crap since forever. We don't always need to be on the defensive, let's own it. If we want to convince the mibbees aye mibbees naw crowd then we have to lead them over the finish line because they are not going to follow a government that seems unsure about who it is or where it wants to go. If we want independence we have to own it. They will be swayed by the wind on the economy and although we need solid answers, we also need to push that agenda with confidence.

Yes I buy that.

It really needs to be a well thought out road map for IndyRef2. We need to be far more self-assured and confident in the case for independence and do not allow unionists to take the moral high ground at any time. This is our Scotland and not a slither the UK - at least it shouldn't be. The evidence (according to unionists) claims we are too poor to go it alone. They need corrected that we are too poor locked into this union.

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