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Holyrood Elections 2021


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3 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Are you sure it wasn't the same person they showed twice? I've seen one guy get about fifty COVID jags, he must have super-immunity by now. :lol:

No I am pretty sure the woman in the BBC report on the news website on Friday was older - in her late 20s maybe.

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1 minute ago, Freeedom said:



 Unfortunately I don't feel optimistic that they can deliver as they are likely to continue with their incoherent vision moving forward, the same vision that cost us the referendum in 2014.
 

I don't follow the logic:

ALBA would hold the SNP to account but they're led by the person who crafted the vision in 2014 which you then go on to say is the same vision which cost the referendum in 2014. Not only that, it is identical to the "the same vision" the SNP have now moving forward.

None of that makes sense to me.

 

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1 minute ago, phart said:

I don't follow the logic:

ALBA would hold the SNP to account but they're led by the person who crafted the vision in 2014 which you then go on to say is the same vision which cost the referendum in 2014. Not only that, it is identical to the "the same vision" the SNP have now moving forward.

None of that makes sense to me.

 

I don't care about personalities in politics, it means nothing to me.

The SNP and Alex Salmond fluffed it in 2014 with their nonsense currency policy position. Alba is a separate party with separate policies, they want Scotland to have it's own currency and in addition are pushing for EFTA membership as opposed to rejoining the EU just as an early example.

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IMO, the ALBA experiment was worth a wee gamble. It didn't come off but, as aaid has pointed out, it didn't cause any damage either. The worst case scenario was always going to be if ALBA got about 3-4%. Not enough to get any seats but enough to damage the prospects of SNP or the Greens on the list. Nothing lost, nothing gained.

The people of Scotland have spoken. It's time to move on and start building towards a referendum, whenever that may happen. 

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56 minutes ago, aaid said:

.

.

.  Lets be honest though, the majority of pro-Indy people who would vote Alba would never vote Green.  Anyone who weighed up between voting for Alba and the Greens to try and get an Indy seat and went for the former needs to take a long look at themselves though if they thought they had a better chance of winning.
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There are plenty of seats that the SNP won - where they were the incumbent - where an even more concerted unionist tactical vote could've seen them lose it and that is the point where the list seats become important as insurance.
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I know you say 'majority' and I have seriously considered voting Green several times, but never have for fear that 'insurance' would be required.

I did vote Alba this time since, in the West, there seemed very low risk this time, and I doubted Greens would pick up a 2nd.   Indy is, and always has been my priority despite some tossers promoting all the parties.

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1 hour ago, Morrisandmoo said:

Oooft. They might have realised that if they end up in court with the Scottish Government then the game is up. It is the better approach, if you are a unionist, to permit the referendum and try to win again. 

Would be better for independence if they put up some resistance. 

There is talk of love bombing us. Or throwing us cash - look at Hartlepool, people like promises of jobs and money.

Let's expect money will be no object, suddenly HS2 will come to Scotland, there will be an HS4 from Cairnryan to Aberdeen, Global Britain Freeports on the Clyde, 40 new hospitals, a new National Stadium, etc. 

All funded direct from the Union Unit with a Union Flag on it.

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Just now, Freeedom said:

I don't care about personalities in politics, it means nothing to me.

The SNP and Alex Salmond fluffed it in 2014 with their nonsense currency policy position. Alba is a separate party with separate policies, they want Scotland to have it's own currency and in addition are pushing for EFTA membership as opposed to rejoining the EU just as an early example.

Neither do I but the policies are the made by the personalities the party is just the collective noun of these personalities, but if you're saying the policies have changed then that now makes sense.

I only skimmed the manifesto but wasn't the EFTA described as an interim position while negotiating a full membership with the EU or a totally unique unspecified relationship?

Also stated would use Sterling as a dual currency (Sterling as an internationally tradable currency still an accepted denomination for all private sector assets and liabilities.) while a new currency would be set up, is this materially different from the SNP polivy of using a non-currency union Sterling before changing to own currency?

I personally didn't see much difference between the parties.

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2 minutes ago, exile said:

There is talk of love bombing us. Or throwing us cash - look at Hartlepool, people like promises of jobs and money.

Let's expect money will be no object, suddenly HS2 will come to Scotland, there will be an HS4 from Cairnryan to Aberdeen, Global Britain Freeports on the Clyde, 40 new hospitals, a new National Stadium, etc. 

All funded direct from the Union Unit with a Union Flag on it.

This wouldn't surprise me. The myth that Scotland is too poor to look after itself is still absolutely rampant in this country, I was talking to my friends mother about politics and she was telling me how fantastic the furlough scheme was and how lucky we were that "they" gave "us" all this funding. No awareness that it is our tax money that is coming right back to us. This is a woman who voted yes in 2014 but would probably vote no in any new referendum.

We need to tackle this argument.

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4 minutes ago, exile said:

There is talk of love bombing us. Or throwing us cash - look at Hartlepool, people like promises of jobs and money.

Let's expect money will be no object, suddenly HS2 will come to Scotland, there will be an HS4 from Cairnryan to Aberdeen, Global Britain Freeports on the Clyde, 40 new hospitals, a new National Stadium, etc. 

All funded direct from the Union Unit with a Union Flag on it.

Oh without doubt - in a hope of scoring points with potential indy voters next time around too.

 

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26 minutes ago, kumnio said:

Some Alba people’s response on here and on Twitter has been ridiculous, like a petty angry child shouting and screaming that he didn’t get picked.

The electorate didn’t like what was offered, it’s as simple as that, when this happens, you know what should happen, self reflection, not attacking those who have already rejected you. 

On the flip side of this, there’s been some serious pish from SNP members/supporters towards Salmond, and these people should GTF. 

This. Be gracious in victory or defeat. Don't blame the voters.

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1 minute ago, Freeedom said:

This wouldn't surprise me. The myth that Scotland is too poor to look after itself is still absolutely rampant in this country, I was talking to my friends mother about politics and she was telling me how fantastic the furlough scheme was and how lucky we were that "they" gave "us" all this funding. No awareness that it is our tax money that is coming right back to us. This is a woman who voted yes in 2014 but would probably vote no in any new referendum.

We need to tackle this argument.

I fully agree there.

We need to be more vocal and do more to get the case for independence out there too. It is also annoying watching Tories taking credit for the vaccine as if they themselves discovered and produced it.

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7 minutes ago, phart said:

Neither do I but the policies are the made by the personalities the party is just the collective noun of these personalities, but if you're saying the policies have changed then that now makes sense.

I only skimmed the manifesto but wasn't the EFTA described as an interim position while negotiating a full membership with the EU or a totally unique unspecified relationship?

Also stated would use Sterling as a dual currency (Sterling as an internationally tradable currency still an accepted denomination for all private sector assets and liabilities.) while a new currency would be set up, is this materially different from the SNP polivy of using a non-currency union Sterling before changing to own currency?

I personally didn't see much difference between the parties.

From my understanding the policy positions are different, I wouldn't have given them my vote otherwise. 

The most infuriating aspect for me is that the SNP have no intention of giving Scotland a vote on EU membership, their whole campaign is about re-joining the EU. If Scotland won it's independence and the SNP gave people a vote on membership where the people voted to re-join then I would have no problem with that. But I find the fact that they don't even intend to give us the choice infuriating.

They forget that 40% of people in Scotland voted for brexit and 30% of SNP members voted for brexit. They are isolating a HUGE chunk of society before we even get to the question of independence.

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49 minutes ago, scotlad said:

That's a bit of a stretch. I'd be surprised if a right-wing ethnic nationalist felt comfortable voting for a party that stood several candidates from ethnic minority backgrounds and includes an (ex?) Marxist amongst its more prominent members.

I'd characterise it as a group of disparate people who have two things in common.  A support for Independence and a dislike of the SNP, or at least the leadership.

The reasons for that dislike though are many and various and in some cases are mutually exclusive.

I suspect that sooner or later they will all start looking at each other and think "wtf am I doing with these people".

I think it will be interesting to see if they can put some sort of coherent policy platform together.

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5 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I fully agree there.

We need to be more vocal and do more to get the case for independence out there too. It is also annoying watching Tories taking credit for the vaccine as if they themselves discovered and produced it.

I don't think being vocal is a problem for the independence campaign. If anything, it's already too vocal. The problem is the arguments and the way they are made (usually from an imagined position of intellectual and moral superiority) tend to disenfranchise people. 

Genuinely listening to people's concerns and appreciating their perspective is what we need to work on more. We will then be better placed to build a vision that appreciates those perspectives.  

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22 minutes ago, Grim Jim said:

I know you say 'majority' and I have seriously considered voting Green several times, but never have for fear that 'insurance' would be required.

I did vote Alba this time since, in the West, there seemed very low risk this time, and I doubted Greens would pick up a 2nd.   Indy is, and always has been my priority despite some tossers promoting all the parties.

Well the Greens were some way from picking up a second seat in West but they were way way way closer to doing that than Alba were, although even if all the Alba votes went to the Greens they would still be short.

You didn't make a difference either way but I won't be asking you for your lottery numbers any time soon.

If you're happy and comfortable with your vote regardless of how it turned out then that's all you can ask for.  I voted tactically once and have regretted it ever since.  I always vote with my conscience now although as I live in a solid Tory constituency I freely admit that it comes with no jeopardy whatsoever.

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6 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

From my understanding the policy positions are different, I wouldn't have given them my vote otherwise. 

The most infuriating aspect for me is that the SNP have no intention of giving Scotland a vote on EU membership, their whole campaign is about re-joining the EU. If Scotland won it's independence and the SNP gave people a vote on membership where the people voted to re-join then I would have no problem with that. But I find the fact that they don't even intend to give us the choice infuriating.

They forget that 40% of people in Scotland voted for brexit and 30% of SNP members voted for brexit. They are isolating a HUGE chunk of society before we even get to the question of independence.

The SNP manifesto doesn't say that they won't have a referendum on rejoining the EU. For me the annoying bit is that they don't say that they will have one either. I can't see any way that Scotland could rejoin the EU without having a referendum at some point. I can't see any reason why they aren't specifically saying this though. Maybe they just haven't got to that level of detail yet? We can't join the EU before becoming independent and that bit seems a long way off at present.

 

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2 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

Probably half of the snp mp’s

Is this the point where you tell us that there will be loads of defections coming up, some time soon but I can't tell you when but just you wait and see.

Seriously, you need to look at what you've been told on a raft of things, who's told you those, how true they've turned out to be and consider whether or not you've had the wool pulled over your eyes.

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15 minutes ago, aaid said:

I'd characterise it as a group of disparate people who have two things in common.  A support for Independence and a dislike of the SNP, or at least the leadership.

 

You'll need to invent a new pigeon hole. I voted ALBA and I think wee Nicola is a fantastic woman.

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2 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

The SNP manifesto doesn't say that they won't have a referendum on rejoining the EU. For me the annoying bit is that they don't say that they will have one either. I can't see any way that Scotland could rejoin the EU without having a referendum at some point. I can't see any reason why they aren't specifically saying this though. Maybe they just haven't got to that level of detail yet? We can't join the EU before becoming independent and that bit seems a long way off at present.

 

Surely - like pretty much everything to do with the "Indy offer"- that would be something that would be debated when the referendum comes around.

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3 hours ago, thplinth said:

So ALBA were bang on the money folks.

They said that the 1.100,000 SNP regional votes would be effectively wasted and would only result in 1-2 additional SNP MSPs. That is exactly what has happened. Almost perfectly.

So what they also said was true.

Had just 50% of those 1.100.000 SNP regional votes voted ALBA it would have netted 20-25 additional Pro-independence ALBA MSPs. On top of the 62 constituency SNP MSPs. (Plus the Greens as well if you want to include them.) This would have been a supermajority of pro-independence MSPs.

Instead you don't have even an outright majority of pro-independence MSPs, and even with the Greens it is razor thin, which when you factor in turnout wont amount to fuck all when it comes to pushing Boris for independence.

You are facing five years of fuck all, that is your victory here. There is not even any point in arguing about it anymore, it is done now.

 

3 hours ago, thplinth said:

Even with a supermajority it was possibly not going to be enough.

But with this... it is  nowhere nearly enough.

Why? because almost nothing has changed as a result of this election., what two extra SNP MSPs and one short of a majority... I am sure Boris will be shitting himself. 

Nothing has changed, so nothing will change. 

 

2 hours ago, thplinth said:

ALBA said vote SNP1/ALBA2.

If people had we would have a whopping supermajority right now.

But even that might not have been enough for the reason that it was still based around the same vote, but it would have been a hell of a lot stronger and better than what we have now, i.e. exactly the same dead-end status quo that we have had for the last five years.

The SNP said vote SNP1/SNP2.

Of course, they knew it was stupid and futile but it was more important to them to kill off Alex Salmond, even if it killed off our chances of indyref2. They have succeed in doing both for the foreseeable future.

I guess if you were happy with the last five years you will be happy with the next five. I wonder if this thread will still be going then. What are we now into year 6 of it. It is amazing how the same trick keeps on working...


So about an hour after your posts, Gove signals that indyref2 is on, as the UK won't challenge the legislation.

It seems something has indeed changed thplinth :ok:

Could the SNP's strategy have been the right one all along?

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1 minute ago, aaid said:

Is this the point where you tell us that there will be loads of defections coming up, some time soon but I can't tell you when but just you wait and see.

Seriously, you need to look at what you've been told on a raft of things, who's told you those, how true they've turned out to be and consider whether or not you've had the wool pulled over your eyes.

Defections? No not that i am at all aware of or never considered,, you are putting words in my mouth. I am very single minded and dont go with the crowd rightly or wrongly,, there are some very unpleasant folk in the snp and yes that can be said of alba too,, that stewart macdonald is horrendous,, really horrible guy.. 

i have maybe been naive in thinking indy should come first and foremost,that certainly is not the case.. in what regards have i had the wool pulled over my eyes? I voted snp 1 and alba 2 that if adopted would have had maximum effect, donyou agree with that? 

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4 minutes ago, Dave78 said:

 

 


So about an hour after your posts, Gove signals that indyref2 is on, as the UK won't challenge the legislation.

It seems something has indeed changed thplinth :ok:

Could the SNP's strategy have been the right one all along?

It wouldn't surprise me if Gove starts backtracking on that very soon.

 

Edited by Orraloon
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