Holyrood Elections 2021

[exile]

59 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

I don't know who I will vote for if anyone on the main vote. But I will give my list vote to Alba despite the fact that I think Alex Salmond is a complete sleeze just because they are making independence their number one priority and will push for EFTA rather than full EU membership.

 

1 hour ago, Freeedom said:

You make a lot of good points and of course there is merit for the SNP in winning the election by convincing as many voters as possible to back them but I don't think it's possible to be all things to all people. The party had a mandate to hold a referendum in the last parliament because the material change in circumstances occurred in 2016 but they didn't push for it. In fact since the 19th of September 2014 the party pretty much refused to engage on the issue of independence at all whilst acting like they have a dictatorial role over the constitutional issue. It's been seven years completely wasted when we could have used that time to build up momentum, learn the lessons from 2014 and brought forward a new generation of indy supporters. Why did we stop campaigning?

By being the party in government for 14 years and by trying to be all things to all people the party has moved sharply to the right and has been inundated with careerist politicians who couldn't give a toss about independence one way or another. I am not convinced that under any circumstance the SNP will be ready for a referendum during this parliament and I dont think Nicola Sturgeon wants the headache of running another independence campaign. WHY OH WHY are we not making the case that independence is the best way to recover from the pandemic? it is a complete open goal but the SNP seem completely scared to even make such an obvious argument.

I won't be voting for the SNP,

1) because I don't believe they have any intention of campaigning or getting another referendum

2) Because of the absolute shambles that is the drug crisis in Scotland

3) the "4 nations approach" and the 10,000 deaths that happend as a consequence of their mismanagement of the pandemic

4) EU membership, and the fact that they wont even considering offering the people of Scotland a vote on the issue

5) Pete Wishart, Stewart McDonald, Alyn Smith, Derek McKay, Angus Robertson, Humza Youseff and every other total wanker in the party

Among a lot of other reasons. I've only ever voted for the SNP in Scotland but I wont ever give this administation another shot, they cant take my vote as an independence supporter for granted and they wont be getting it.

OK, I get that people are disgruntled by various things the SNP have done over 14 years in government.

And, I get that people may put things like drugs or health or education or gender ahead of indy.

What I don't get, is where people want independence so much that they are unhappy at the SNP being not pro-independence enough, why they don't do the one thing most certain to get a pro-indy majority. 

By that I mean, every vote on the list has a risk of being a wasted vote, whereas a constituency vote for SNP is most likely the most certain way of getting a pro-indy MSP, displacing a unionist MSP. All indy supporters are in effect relying on the SNP to return the lions' share of pro-indy MSPs. But if SNP don't get enough seats for an indy majority, if there is no indy majority, all the Alba votes go to waste anyway.

Maybe for some, voting Alba at all (I mean, voting SNP/Alba rather than SNP/SNP) would be a big enough signal of rebellion against the SNP - and signalling not to be taken for granted - without going so far as actually withdrawing support for an independence party on the constituency. 

If people really want 'country before party' or 'indy before party', why not vote for whichever party most likely to win in the constituency and whichever party most likely to win on the list, irrespective of the party?

[hampden_loon2878]

Alba could end up being the best thing that ever happened to the snp,, it will keep them on their toes and have them needing to perform to keep yes voters with them

[King Of Paisley]

2 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

Anyone know the percentage of postal votes this time round? 

Ruth Tank Commander is the man in the know....

[Hertsscot]

3 hours ago, Freeedom said:

Does anyone here actually believe that the SNP intend to deliver another referendum in the next parliament? Because based on that debate Nicola has absolutely no intention to even campaign for independence nevermind deliver another referendum

If SNP gets a majority (please God) and doesn't deliver a referendum they'll be toast and rightly so.

[Freeedom]

1 hour ago, exile said:

 

OK, I get that people are disgruntled by various things the SNP have done over 14 years in government.

And, I get that people may put things like drugs or health or education or gender ahead of indy.

What I don't get, is where people want independence so much that they are unhappy at the SNP being not pro-independence enough, why they don't do the one thing most certain to get a pro-indy majority. 

By that I mean, every vote on the list has a risk of being a wasted vote, whereas a constituency vote for SNP is most likely the most certain way of getting a pro-indy MSP, displacing a unionist MSP. All indy supporters are in effect relying on the SNP to return the lions' share of pro-indy MSPs. But if SNP don't get enough seats for an indy majority, if there is no indy majority, all the Alba votes go to waste anyway.

Maybe for some, voting Alba at all (I mean, voting SNP/Alba rather than SNP/SNP) would be a big enough signal of rebellion against the SNP - and signalling not to be taken for granted - without going so far as actually withdrawing support for an independence party on the constituency. 

If people really want 'country before party' or 'indy before party', why not vote for whichever party most likely to win in the constituency and whichever party most likely to win on the list, irrespective of the party?

I'm not putting drug deaths, health or education ahead of indy. All of those issues are very important to me, I am a left leaning socialist. But I am also a nationalist who believes that the best way to address all of those problems is through independence. 

To me the SNP are failing on the argument of independence because they don't even want to address it, but they are also failing as a government by lurching and more and more to the right. If I thought that voting for the SNP was actually a pro indy vote then I'd vote for them like I have done in the past. But you are making the same mistake that the SNP are in thinking that my vote can be taken as carte blanche just because I support independence. 

The only way for me to let the SNP know how disappointed I am with them is to not vote for them, it is the only leverage I have and I'm going to use it. They have become arrogant in power and think that they can treat voters like me however they want without repercussion because I support independence. I'm sorry, but they can't keep dangling that carrot without delivering anything at all. I don't want to see an independent Scotland model itself on a neoliberal tax heaven like Ireland, I think we can be better than that. The SNP's vision of what an independent Scotland would look like makes my stomach churn. But more importantly they don't even have a plan to get there.

That's why it is so important that we have a pro independence party like Alba to hold them to account, to offer a competing vision  because so much of the general public don't understand that the SNP and independence are not synonymous. There are four pro independence parties in catalunya and with the Greens, SNP and Alba hopefully we can make it the number one issue on the political agenda again.

My decision is personal, if others feel they can stomach a vote for the SNP I would encourage them to vote for the party, but at this point it's a no go from me. There are far too many significant failures for me to encourage them further with my vote.

 

[scotlad]

1 hour ago, exile said:

 

OK, I get that people are disgruntled by various things the SNP have done over 14 years in government.

And, I get that people may put things like drugs or health or education or gender ahead of indy.

What I don't get, is where people want independence so much that they are unhappy at the SNP being not pro-independence enough, why they don't do the one thing most certain to get a pro-indy majority. 

By that I mean, every vote on the list has a risk of being a wasted vote, whereas a constituency vote for SNP is most likely the most certain way of getting a pro-indy MSP, displacing a unionist MSP. All indy supporters are in effect relying on the SNP to return the lions' share of pro-indy MSPs. But if SNP don't get enough seats for an indy majority, if there is no indy majority, all the Alba votes go to waste anyway.

Maybe for some, voting Alba at all (I mean, voting SNP/Alba rather than SNP/SNP) would be a big enough signal of rebellion against the SNP - and signalling not to be taken for granted - without going so far as actually withdrawing support for an independence party on the constituency. 

If people really want 'country before party' or 'indy before party', why not vote for whichever party most likely to win in the constituency and whichever party most likely to win on the list, irrespective of the party?

Good post. 

The SNP might have a patchy record in government, they might be standing some complete roasters for election and they might even be going soft on the idea of independence; but even if they are, at least they are pliable on the subject. There is no way a Labour or Tory MSP would be.  

[exile]

21 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

I'm not putting drug deaths, health or education ahead of indy. All of those issues are very important to me, I am a left leaning socialist. But I am also a nationalist who believes that the best way to address all of those problems is through independence. 

To me the SNP are failing on the argument of independence because they don't even want to address it, but they are also failing as a government by lurching and more and more to the right. If I thought that voting for the SNP was actually a pro indy vote then I'd vote for them like I have done in the past. But you are making the same mistake that the SNP are in thinking that my vote can be taken as carte blanche just because I support independence. 

The only way for me to let the SNP know how disappointed I am with them is to not vote for them, it is the only leverage I have and I'm going to use it. They have become arrogant in power and think that they can treat voters like me however they want without repercussion because I support independence. I'm sorry, but they can't keep dangling that carrot without delivering anything at all. I don't want to see an independent Scotland model itself on a neoliberal tax heaven like Ireland, I think we can be better than that. The SNP's vision of what an independent Scotland would look like makes my stomach churn. But more importantly they don't even have a plan to get there.

That's why it is so important that we have a pro independence party like Alba to hold them to account, to offer a competing vision  because so much of the general public don't understand that the SNP and independence are not synonymous. There are four pro independence parties in catalunya and with the Greens, SNP and Alba hopefully we can make it the number one issue on the political agenda again.

My decision is personal, if others feel they can stomach a vote for the SNP I would encourage them to vote for the party, but at this point it's a no go from me. There are far too many significant failures for me to encourage them further with my vote.

 

I thought people (at least, people on here) felt SNP had lurched too much to the left!

I'm not taking your or anyone's vote for granted. I'm saying that IF you (anyone) wanted to put country or indy ahead of party politics, you (anyone) would more likely realise that by voting for the most likely indy party. IF however your dislike for a party is so great means you can't stomach voting for them, and would rather see an actual right wing Tory get in, then that's fine but it seems like putting party politics ahead of indy.

Happy voting!

[Freeedom]

2 minutes ago, exile said:

I thought people (at least, people on here) felt SNP had lurched too much to the left!

I'm not taking your or anyone's vote for granted. I'm saying that IF you (anyone) wanted to put country or indy ahead of party politics, you (anyone) would more likely realise that by voting for the most likely indy party. IF however your dislike for a party is so great means you can't stomach voting for them, and would rather see an actual right wing Tory get in, then that's fine but it seems like putting party politics ahead of indy.

Happy voting!

If I believed that the SNP would actually campaign for independence or in fact had any sort of plan to hold an independence referendum then I might vote for them. But as I keep saying and as their record over the last seven years suggests they have no intention whatsoever to campaign for independence so It's not a pro indy vote. 

Don't try and guilt trip me with "letting a tory in" nonsense, the onus is on the SNP to win MY vote, not for me to vote for them just to keep out a tory. This is exactly what I am talking about when it comes to arrogance.

[exile]

2 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

If I believed that the SNP would actually campaign for independence or in fact had any sort of plan to hold an independence referendum then I might vote for them. But as I keep saying and as their record over the last seven years suggests they have no intention whatsoever to campaign for independence so It's not a pro indy vote. 

Don't try and guilt trip me with "letting a tory in" nonsense, the onus is on the SNP to win MY vote, not for me to vote for them just to keep out a tory. This is exactly what I am talking about when it comes to arrogance.

If I was SNP trying to get you to vote for them, saying "you must vote for me" then you might have a point.

But I am just thinking through and arguing from the point of view of a hypothetical independence supporter wondering how best to get independence.

If I said publicly I wouldn't vote SNP (or Green or Alba) because of some reason, I wouldn't mind if someone pointed out that the consequence could be letting a unionist in. I'd just accept that on this occasion I was putting party politics first, ahead of independence.

I am pretty sure there must be SNP supporters who would rather Alba didn't get any seats, even if it risked indy majority. 

[Freeedom]

11 minutes ago, exile said:

If I was SNP trying to get you to vote for them, saying "you must vote for me" then you might have a point.

But I am just thinking through and arguing from the point of view of a hypothetical independence supporter wondering how best to get independence.

If I said publicly I wouldn't vote SNP (or Green or Alba) because of some reason, I wouldn't mind if someone pointed out that the consequence could be letting a unionist in. I'd just accept that on this occasion I was putting party politics first, ahead of independence.

I am pretty sure there must be SNP supporters who would rather Alba didn't get any seats, even if it risked indy majority. 

You keep suggesting that a vote for the SNP is a vote for independence and I keep telling you that I don't agree.

I'm voting for a pro independence party in Alba and I feel confident in the fact that the vote I will be casting is actually a vote that will push the argument forwards.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Freeedom

[hampden_loon2878]

Well its been a strange run up to an election to say the least😂 not only is it my first ever postal vote, first time not giving the snp both votes, first time canvassing 😂 i met salmond and got a good news.all this and i was in two minds about even voting before alba came in the go, What i will say is anyone voting snp 1&2 are pretty much wasting a vote, i hope Alec gets in, nea only because i agree with his politics but also the parliment is better for him being there, and lets face it, he will be far better opposition than either dougie ross,Rennie or sarwar,, he will give sturgeon the boot up the arse she needs,, SNP 1 ALBA 2

[Toepoke]

4 hours ago, iainmac1 said:

What is the deal with results being announced? I see there is no overnight count tomorrow. Will there be any show where they results are announced as they come in, whenever that may be.

First constituencies expected to declare on Friday afternoon. Going to be a slow process to get the full results though. 

[TDYER63]

Well I’ve voted and taken a gamble. I just hope it pays off. Small steady queue at the polling station. 

[wee-toon-red]

9 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

What i will say is anyone voting snp 1&2 are pretty much wasting a vote

Completely and utterly misleading and there's no way that you don't know that fine well. Any SNP supporter in the south of Scotland who doesn't go SNP 1&2 is taking a massive risk for a start. The same applies, albeit to a lesser degree, in the Highlands and Islands and plenty other areas where the SNP aren't guaranteed to win the constituencies.

[ThistleWhistle]

3 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

Well I’ve voted and taken a gamble. I just hope it pays off. Small steady queue at the polling station. 

My mum is working in a polling station here and turnout has been pretty good so far according to her plus quite a sizeable chunk of postal votes.  

[Orraloon]

10 hours ago, exile said:

I thought people (at least, people on here) felt SNP had lurched too much to the left!

 

Loads of folk think they have gone too far "left" and loads of folk think they have gone too far "right". Maybe that means they have got the balance about spot on? I find it hard to discuss politics with people in terms of "left and right" as they all seem to have different ideas of what the terms mean. It usually just turns into a discussion about definitions. I tend to avoid the terms "right and left" as they don't mean much to me.

[Orraloon]

5 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

Well I’ve voted and taken a gamble. I just hope it pays off. Small steady queue at the polling station. 

If it makes you feel any better the result was probably already decided before you made up your mind, never mind actually casting your vote. 

[TDYER63]

42 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

If it makes you feel any better the result was probably already decided before you made up your mind, never mind actually casting your vote. 

😂 

Naw, you are trying to make yourself feel better in case this goes pearshaped 😁

 

[slasher]

It was snowing when I got up at 5 this morning, now tipping it down here in the shire 🙄

Hopefully it doesn't affect turnout too badly. 

[Freeedom]

1 hour ago, Orraloon said:

Loads of folk think they have gone too far "left" and loads of folk think they have gone too far "right". Maybe that means they have got the balance about spot on? I find it hard to discuss politics with people in terms of "left and right" as they all seem to have different ideas of what the terms mean. It usually just turns into a discussion about definitions. I tend to avoid the terms "right and left" as they don't mean much to me.

There are loads of folk who think the BBC are too far left or too far right that doesn't mean the BBC have the right approach. The BBC are clearly a pro establishment, right wing mouthpiece for the Tory party who do nothing but pump out propaganda all day long.  

The SNP have got themselves baw deep in woke identity politics, for some, being politically correct is being left wing but it is clearly the professional middle class who care about identity politics. Go into any working class area and ask someone what gender they want to identify as and they will give you a stupid look. Just because the SNP have embraced all of the politically correct nonsense does not mean they are left wing. Being left wing means supporting and pushing for the interests of the working class people in Scotland.

[Och Aye]

11 hours ago, Freeedom said:

I am also a nationalist who believes that the best way to address all of those problems is through independence. 

To me the SNP are failing on the argument of independence because they don't even want to address it

 

This is a Holyrood election tho not an independence referendum. The SNP belief is a pro indy majority in this election puts the the UK government in the impossible position of denying a referendum. If the SNP don't go all out for it then I'll agree with you. The phrases shooting yourself in the foot and cutting your nose off really do spring to mind. 

[Caledonian Craig]

1 minute ago, Och Aye said:

This is a Holyrood election tho not an independence referendum. The SNP belief is a pro indy majority in this election puts the the UK government in the impossible position of denying a referendum. If the SNP don't go all out for it then I'll agree with you. The phrases shooting yourself in the foot and cutting your nose off really do spring to mind. 

Spot on.

This is why, the other day, I said this election was a sort of crossroads for several reasons. If an Indy majority is achieved but then no discernible progress towards IndyRef2 then it could be a seismic moment in Scottish politics what with Alba now waiting in the wings.

[Freeedom]

3 minutes ago, Och Aye said:

This is a Holyrood election tho not an independence referendum. The SNP belief is a pro indy majority in this election puts the the UK government in the impossible position of denying a referendum. If the SNP don't go all out for it then I'll agree with you. The phrases shooting yourself in the foot and cutting your nose off really do spring to mind. 

But the SNP have already said that they aren't going all out for it, "after the pandemic" could be a decade from now. This virus isn't going to just disappear.

Furthermore, the SNP aren't campaigning for independence they are campaigning to rejoin the EU. I am a Yes/Leaver, perhaps if they would even consider the idea of giving the people of Scotland a vote on EU membership after independence I would have been more likely to have backed them.

Anyway, I cast my vote for Alba today and that was that.

[ParisInAKilt]

I wouldn’t say the bbc is particularly right wing.

[aaid]

14 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

I wouldn’t say the bbc is particularly right wing.

I wouldn't expect you to.