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20 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

You judge swinney how you want, i will hold mine. Lets see how this pans out before passing judgement, its unprecedented and difficult,they will get it right  

I'll judge him on his performance, his huge U Turn kinda proves the performance hasn't been great.

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51 minutes ago, phart said:

 

La la land partisanship, it's frightening we're going to end up like America with statue guarders on one side and Independence pastors on the other.

 

 

I'd say we're a bawhair away from that, if not actually there already.

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1 hour ago, phart said:

of course it is, they're politicians.

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/sp/?id=2000-12-13.841.0

Here's when the other parties did it back in 2000 after a fuck up by the SQA. Nicola Sturgeon and John Swinney feature heavily in the calling for a vote of no confidence.

As Swinney said then

"That raises the question of what the point of parliamentary democracy is, if not to allow the Opposition to hold the Executive to account for its actions and to hold ministers responsible for their decisions and for the powers that they have."

 

I was referring more to taking advantage of the situation about a decision that was made in a pandemic, the first time in history that school exams have been cancelled.

 I have no problem at all with politicians being held to account generally, infact it is to be encouraged, but I would cut ANY government a bit of slack in situations like this. Maybe I am too soft. 
I think I have made it clear they are wrong, and if they were point blank refusing to waver from their stance then I could see the justification . 

But to table a vote of no confidence before anything is even offered by way of correction is pretty petty to me .
If that makes me partisan then so be it. 

 

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2 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I was referring more to taking advantage of the situation about a decision that was made in a pandemic, the first time in history that school exams have been cancelled.

 I have no problem at all with politicians being held to account generally, infact it is to be encouraged, but I would cut ANY government a bit of slack in situations like this. Maybe I am too soft. 
I think I have made it clear they are wrong, and if they were point blank refusing to waver from their stance then I could see the justification . 

But to table a vote of no confidence before anything is even offered by way of correction is pretty petty to me .
If that makes me partisan then so be it. 

 

The issue wasn't with exams being cancelled it was the way the moderation was done and then signed off on, even Sturgeon now agrees that was wrong, which is good as can move on now and sort it.

It looked like every other party including allies were willing to push the vote of no confidence on this issue, at some point you have to move the blame away from political opportunism to actually we got it wrong. Which has been done.

You have the chronology wrong, nothing was being done in way of correction (beyond the bog standard appeals process) as no fault was being admitted, if everyone had sat on their hands waiting for correction to be offered nothing was forthcoming. Now the fault has be admitted it can be corrected. That seemingly came as a direct consequence of the threat of no-confidence, a threat which was only credible if every other party was in agreement and willing to do it, which they seemingly were.

Sitting waiting for a correction would have achieved nothing. The government had to be held to account and it was and accordingly changed their mind which will hopefully benefit the gifted young students who got shafted. The result is a win for them hopefully. The SNP were wrong to stand behind it but to their credit have changed that stance.

I of course acknowledge that a lot of the other folk complaining were playing the partisan game "SNP bad" but this time the broken clocks were right, it happens twice a day i hear.

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Although aware of the context of massively increased passmarks, in general, and the real difficulties; it still doesn't sit right with me that the ones most likely to be done down are bright kids from disadvantaged backgrounds.  Rich kids parents find ways to get their kids ahead regardless, poor kids need the grades to get ahead.  

I'm not sure what the best option was but some things should have been taken off the table as not acceptable. 

The approach has definitely been too general and not individual enough. 

I considered resigning my SNP membership over this.

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12 minutes ago, phart said:

The issue wasn't with exams being cancelled it was the way the moderation was done and then signed off on, even Sturgeon now agrees that was wrong, which is good as can move on now and sort it.

It looked like every other party including allies were willing to push the vote of no confidence on this issue, at some point you have to move the blame away from political opportunism to actually we got it wrong. Which has been done.

You have the chronology wrong, nothing was being done in way of correction (beyond the bog standard appeals process) as no fault was being admitted, if everyone had sat on their hands waiting for correction to be offered nothing was forthcoming. Now the fault has be admitted it can be corrected. That seemingly came as a direct consequence of the threat of no-confidence, a threat which was only credible if every other party was in agreement and willing to do it, which they seemingly were.

Sitting waiting for a correction would have achieved nothing. The government had to be held to account and it was and accordingly changed their mind which will hopefully benefit the gifted young students who got shafted. The result is a win for them hopefully. The SNP were wrong to stand behind it but to their credit have changed that stance.

I of course acknowledge that a lot of the other folk complaining were playing the partisan game "SNP bad" but this time the broken clocks were right, it happens twice a day i hear.

I wasn't meaning that the exams being cancelled was the issue, I was meaning that with the exams being cancelled they had been left with a situation that was totally unprecedented and due to that I would cut any government a bit of slack. 

If the reason for the U turn was down to the threat of no confidence and not because of the general outcry then you are right, it has achieved something .
Unlike the Tories and Labour , the Greens were only going to endorse the vote if the SG didnt make things right, no doubt that has had some influence. 

As you say , ensuring the pupils are not disadvantaged is the primary concern at this time . Thereafter ,  if anyone has to be held accountable steps can be taken to investigate and address this.

 

 

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7 hours ago, phart said:

Gifted pupils at bad schools are getting their hard work eradicated by an imperfect measuring system.

It's the pupils who are getting shafted that is the issue not the media.

Too many partisans worrying about how it affects "the game" totally oblivious to how it's actually affecting real disadvantaged kids.

Oh the papers would have said this if they had done A

oh in the honesty power rankings of politicians this politician is ranked here.

Try and see it as actual reality and not how it affects the game of Independence/Unionism.

Disadvanatged kids are getting fucked and seeing it as "scalps" for the unionists or what the press would say is childish partisan pish that ignores the actual reality of the decision.

Best post ive read on here in a while.  Some things (most things) are more important than the political image game.

In fact there is little more important the state can do than protect bright, disadvantaged kids.  It should have been one of the foremost goals of whatever approach was taken.  Ultimately there are too many stories of bright poor kids being shafted.  I'm not happy and I'm a Swinney fan in general.

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4 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

Best post ive read on here in a while.  Some things (most things) are more important than the political image game.

In fact there is little more important the state can do than protect bright, disadvantaged kids.  It should have been one of the foremost goals of whatever approach was taken.  Ultimately there are too many stories of bright poor kids being shafted.  I'm not happy and I'm a Swinney fan in general.

If anything good has to come out of it (apart of course from the current situation being rectified) is that more people now have more knowledge and detail on this system and hopefully put pressure on for things to change.  The right for every child to have the same chance in education is surely the one thing most people can agree on. 
 

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13 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I wasn't meaning that the exams being cancelled was the issue, I was meaning that with the exams being cancelled they had been left with a situation that was totally unprecedented and due to that I would cut any government a bit of slack. 

If the reason for the U turn was down to the threat of no confidence and not because of the general outcry then you are right, it has achieved something .
Unlike the Tories and Labour , the Greens were only going to endorse the vote if the SG didnt make things right, no doubt that has had some influence. 

As you say , ensuring the pupils are not disadvantaged is the primary concern at this time . Thereafter ,  if anyone has to be held accountable steps can be taken to investigate and address this.

 

 

I think we're pretty much in agreement. :)

The problems in education go back way further than this or the previous SNP administration (or even before that), I was angry that the outcome was getting rubberstamped by the current administration though, it just didn't sit right.

Least the SNP listened and changed their mind, whatever was the driver behind that, it's a good outcome.

Now of course the other parties will try and make political hay out of it and it does stick in your craw considering how Boris just allowed Cummings to stay on (as an example) when he flaunted guidelines etc.

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5 minutes ago, phart said:

I think we're pretty much in agreement. :)

The problems in education go back way further than this or the previous SNP administration (or even before that), I was angry that the outcome was getting rubberstamped by the current administration though, it just didn't sit right.

Least the SNP listened and changed their mind, whatever was the driver behind that, it's a good outcome.

Now of course the other parties will try and make political hay out of it and it does stick in your craw considering how Boris just allowed Cummings to stay on (as an example) when he flaunted guidelines etc.

Flouted! He f****** flouted them, he didn’t flaunt them. Can nobody get this right? Aaaaargh! Even the guy who has logically argued a point I strongly believe in too. Let yourself down, chief. I know you’ll say it was a deliberate misspelling. But that would be a lie. 🙃

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1 minute ago, duncan II said:

Flouted! He f****** flouted them, he didn’t flaunt them. Can nobody get this right? Aaaaargh! Even the guy who has logically argued a point I strongly believe in too. Let yourself down, chief. I know you’ll say it was a deliberate misspelling. But that would be a lie. 🙃

Nah i'm wrong, used the wrong word. Cheers for the correction, that was dumbfuckery on my part.

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13 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

It took a while. But probably not as long as  it would take us both to run 5k 🙂

Haha defo. I took 2 mins off my PB on Tuesday there though down to 25:43 now. Then felt it in my legs all week.

This garmin watch plan is slowly killing me though. ran 40k last week, has me doing a 90 minute run on Sunday coming, had me running 12 sprints on Friday past.

I'm sorely tempted to just go back to trotting round at my own pace!!

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12 minutes ago, phart said:

Haha defo. I took 2 mins off my PB on Tuesday there though down to 25:43 now. Then felt it in my legs all week.

This garmin watch plan is slowly killing me though. ran 40k last week, has me doing a 90 minute run on Sunday coming, had me running 12 sprints on Friday past.

I'm sorely tempted to just go back to trotting round at my own pace!!

Check you mr professional runner !  I am well impressed. Keep it up , you are far more likely to stay with something if you have a plan . Unlike me you have goal to achieve. I am just trying to stay alive 🙂

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This doesn't sit right for me and the U-turn is more down to political pressure rather than redress of misconceived unfairness that's merely manifested this year.  An emotionless audit system has essentially spewed out a set of results that shows historically poor kids get shafted vs affluent kids and folk simply don't like it.  For me that should be the focus to correct moving forward and not trying to fudge this set of figures to simply appease folk with next year's election in mind as at the moment we seem nonsensically to be blaming the mirror for what it reflects.  If the exams had gone ahead do you think the results would have been closer to what the SQA churned out dispassionately based on previous years modelling or what the teachers predicted?

For me its the prior and, although far from ideal, the system seems capable of dealing with wonder kids coming through in disadvantages schools.  What it isn't set up to deal with is a massive surge in wonder kids which would leave the results as an outlier so far wide of the last 5 years that in any other study you'd be questioning the validity of the data collected and methodology in garnering it.

If on the other hand you believe it would be closer to the teacher predictions then what's changed this year to generate such results?  The abilities of the pupils across the board won't have changed so dramatically and its not down to some teachers overinflating pass marks unethically to the detriment of: teachers whose results tally closer to historical norms; previous pupils hamstrung by those norms or; future pupils whose results will more likely reflect what the SQA churned out this year. 

The biggest change is the environment so if the attainment gap has been closed between poor and rich kids this year as teachers results seem to suggest is it down to the wonders of Zoom video conferencing despite poorer kids being less likely to have broadband and laptops?  It seems a bit like turkeys voting 'yes' to Christmas for me as if this result  is indeed ratified it would give future governments ammunition for a future cost cutting exercise given the apparent success in adversity this year.  What would stop one senior teacher Zooming a class to multiple classes with junior teachers/ prison wardens manning the classroom/ marking duties?     

Part of this is down to my own petty jealousy as in my own field if a quarter of my files came back from audit questionable it certainly wouldn't be the auditor, regulator or government getting an ass whooping. 

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Glad to see they are seemingly going to 'fix' this, assuming this addresses the crux of the issue to do with individual unfairness. But curious to see how they can devise such a system in a few days (since whenever the decision to "U turn" was made, to when the system sees the light of day). As far as I heard the only proposed solution was to let the teachers' assessment stand, but that would bring problems of its own. 

Politically the Scottish Govt walking a tightrope between being seen to be listening and apologetic, or being seen to be caught in a U turn. Also will be interesting to see the reaction to what happens in some other countries, that have similar systems and in some cases, the same political parties.

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1 hour ago, ThistleWhistle said:

This doesn't sit right for me and the U-turn is more down to political pressure rather than redress of misconceived unfairness that's merely manifested this year.  An emotionless audit system has essentially spewed out a set of results that shows historically poor kids get shafted vs affluent kids and folk simply don't like it.  For me that should be the focus to correct moving forward and not trying to fudge this set of figures to simply appease folk with next year's election in mind as at the moment we seem nonsensically to be blaming the mirror for what it reflects.  If the exams had gone ahead do you think the results would have been closer to what the SQA churned out dispassionately based on previous years modelling or what the teachers predicted?

For me its the prior and, although far from ideal, the system seems capable of dealing with wonder kids coming through in disadvantages schools.  What it isn't set up to deal with is a massive surge in wonder kids which would leave the results as an outlier so far wide of the last 5 years that in any other study you'd be questioning the validity of the data collected and methodology in garnering it.

If on the other hand you believe it would be closer to the teacher predictions then what's changed this year to generate such results?  The abilities of the pupils across the board won't have changed so dramatically and its not down to some teachers overinflating pass marks unethically to the detriment of: teachers whose results tally closer to historical norms; previous pupils hamstrung by those norms or; future pupils whose results will more likely reflect what the SQA churned out this year. 

The biggest change is the environment so if the attainment gap has been closed between poor and rich kids this year as teachers results seem to suggest is it down to the wonders of Zoom video conferencing despite poorer kids being less likely to have broadband and laptops?  It seems a bit like turkeys voting 'yes' to Christmas for me as if this result  is indeed ratified it would give future governments ammunition for a future cost cutting exercise given the apparent success in adversity this year.  What would stop one senior teacher Zooming a class to multiple classes with junior teachers/ prison wardens manning the classroom/ marking duties?     

Part of this is down to my own petty jealousy as in my own field if a quarter of my files came back from audit questionable it certainly wouldn't be the auditor, regulator or government getting an ass whooping. 

The problem is the system had the attainment gap inherent into it's calculations demonstrated by the linear way it applied through the deprived scale. It doesn't matter how dispassionately they made the equation it was still inherently flawed and as a result fucked up a lot of "over-achievers" in deprived areas.

EDIT. Linlithgow Academy has had some interesting upgrades i've heard from friends who have children there. Some folk flunked the whole year (failed prelims, expected fails from teachers and their actual mother in 4 subjects) but got passes in those subjects when the exams came in. While others in other schools have 4 A's the previous year , A's in prelims A's projected but get B's. There is obvious flaws in the calculations which deserves criticism imo.

Edited by phart
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33 minutes ago, phart said:

The problem is the system had the attainment gap inherent into it's calculations demonstrated by the linear way it applied through the deprived scale. It doesn't matter how dispassionately they made the equation it was still inherently flawed and as a result fucked up a lot of "over-achievers" in deprived areas.

EDIT. Linlithgow Academy has had some interesting upgrades i've heard from friends who have children there. Some folk flunked the whole year (failed prelims, expected fails from teachers and their actual mother in 4 subjects) but got passes in those subjects when the exams came in. While others in other schools have 4 A's the previous year , A's in prelims A's projected but get B's. There is obvious flaws in the calculations which deserves criticism imo.

Totally agree the system isn't infallible as essentially it removes the human element and is emotionally inert.  One thing that is obviously unfair is you can have kids in poor areas whose grades have been savaged but then can appeal and hope for the best.  However, rich kids benefiting the other way don't seem to have the opposite in that their grade could be downgraded on appeal.  

 The other problem with the computer model is SISO - given what's been predicted during a global pandemic smashes previous grading it has to be questioned what's gone into the sausage machine in order to generate such results which, in turn, was then causation for the swingeing cuts to scores.  The system doesn't care if Wayne from the arse end of Dundee should've got an A but that given the historical performance there was no way 9 other Wayne's from there too should have been getting an A as well.  

There's three options for me:

1) We accept this is a 'gimmie', go purely with predicted scores and sweep it under the carpet as quickly as possible which in the long run does nobody any favours.   

2) We accept that the teaching marks are a more accurate measure of pupil attainment than the computer modelling and then investigate what was the causation of such a surge in attainment.  

3) We accept that the computer model is a more accurate reflection of what would have happened and accept what is reflected back to us is pretty ugly.  Short term deal with those who have been disadvantaged by SISO and long term try to come up with some way of closing the gap that has escaped everyone for generations.  

For me its option 3 and that the upsurge in performance is not down to a change in teaching style but in how the results were originally collated and recorded.  In any other study the validity of the data, and methodology garnering it, would be hugely scrutinized given how much an outlier it is.  It's kind of ironic too in that the point of education is so we can measure and understand where we've been in the past to help understand where we are in the present to then in-turn manage the future.    

 

 

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18 hours ago, phart said:

Nicola Sturgeon has apologised after accepting her government "did not get it right" over Scottish exam results.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-53719477

Glad she's admitting it's a fuck up.

16 hours ago, PapofGlencoe said:

Although aware of the context of massively increased passmarks, in general, and the real difficulties; it still doesn't sit right with me that the ones most likely to be done down are bright kids from disadvantaged backgrounds.  Rich kids parents find ways to get their kids ahead regardless, poor kids need the grades to get ahead.  

I'm not sure what the best option was but some things should have been taken off the table as not acceptable. 

The approach has definitely been too general and not individual enough. 

I considered resigning my SNP membership over this.

Spot on, I'm amazed at the way some on here are calling it mock outrage etc.

 

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12 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

Totally agree the system isn't infallible as essentially it removes the human element and is emotionally inert.  One thing that is obviously unfair is you can have kids in poor areas whose grades have been savaged but then can appeal and hope for the best.  However, rich kids benefiting the other way don't seem to have the opposite in that their grade could be downgraded on appeal.  

 The other problem with the computer model is SISO - given what's been predicted during a global pandemic smashes previous grading it has to be questioned what's gone into the sausage machine in order to generate such results which, in turn, was then causation for the swingeing cuts to scores.  The system doesn't care if Wayne from the arse end of Dundee should've got an A but that given the historical performance there was no way 9 other Wayne's from there too should have been getting an A as well.  

There's three options for me:

1) We accept this is a 'gimmie', go purely with predicted scores and sweep it under the carpet as quickly as possible which in the long run does nobody any favours.   

2) We accept that the teaching marks are a more accurate measure of pupil attainment than the computer modelling and then investigate what was the causation of such a surge in attainment.  

3) We accept that the computer model is a more accurate reflection of what would have happened and accept what is reflected back to us is pretty ugly.  Short term deal with those who have been disadvantaged by SISO and long term try to come up with some way of closing the gap that has escaped everyone for generations.  

For me its option 3 and that the upsurge in performance is not down to a change in teaching style but in how the results were originally collated and recorded.  In any other study the validity of the data, and methodology garnering it, would be hugely scrutinized given how much an outlier it is.  It's kind of ironic too in that the point of education is so we can measure and understand where we've been in the past to help understand where we are in the present to then in-turn manage the future.    

 

 

SISO being shit in shit out?

Yeah all that is reasonable. That's why i've been focussing on gifted pupils getting marked down cause of where they lived as opposed to above average folk getting historically great grades.

It's the age old social problem, the biggest predictor of success is how wealthy your parents are not intelligence or competence. I don't think any government can realistically change it, hence why it;s so important to minimise the damage it already does. Our entire socio-economic system is set up to transfer public money to private hands. From how the banks are set up with fractional reserve lending to pay to win legal system the entire system is gamed against change. Any attempt to change it even slightly is met with tremendous resistance.

So this has to be fixed which it is. Sorting the actual root problem is nigh impossible though.

Incidentally there's much discussion where i live that the reason the local school does so well has little to do with the school and is mostly due to the massive amount of money being paid over to tutors. The amount of demand for tutors here is mental when you compare it to other places.

 

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exam results are worthless if everyone passes - no value to them

my professional exams have a value because for the final series of exams the pass rate is only about 45/50%  

while we are at it - University is a shoe in as well - pretty much everybody passes and can be done without lot of effort 

 

Edited by euan2020
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