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With all this mention of University admissions and pass marks being shifted around from year to year to effective only grade pupils against their own year group, it seems like the only purpose of exams is to filter entry to the next stage of education. Effectively it's pointless comparing an A maths student from one year against an A student from another, yes? In that case just raffle this year's uni places off and be done with it.

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I cant see what the big uproar is about tbf, you will always have those who think they should be better and appeal, there was always going to be Faux anger from the media irrespective if they had just gone by the teachers estimates, Swinney for the record is probably the most honest politician around, the unionists would love his scalp 

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1 minute ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

I cant see what the big uproar is about tbf, you will always have those who think they should be better and appeal, there was always going to be Faux anger from the media irrespective if they had just gone by the teachers estimates, Swinney for the record is probably the most honest politician around, the unionists would love his scalp 

You can't see why kids who got a A in their prelims but a C awarded by the SQA, despite their teachers predicting an A, is faux anger?

The fact that Swinney was backtracking last night means there is some substance to the "faux" anger.

If he falls on his sword over this then Honest John will have caused it himself.

Some of the head in the sand stuff I see from fellow SNP/Yes voters is staggering. You are allowed to question the SNP you know, even if they'd prefer you not to. They aren't incapable of making fuck ups.

Perhaps if they spent more time on education rather than their current trend of trying to be as woke as possible, then we might not have kids needing to display faux anger after being shafted.

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14 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

I cant see what the big uproar is about tbf, you will always have those who think they should be better and appeal, there was always going to be Faux anger from the media irrespective if they had just gone by the teachers estimates, Swinney for the record is probably the most honest politician around, the unionists would love his scalp 

Gifted pupils at bad schools are getting their hard work eradicated by an imperfect measuring system.

It's the pupils who are getting shafted that is the issue not the media.

Too many partisans worrying about how it affects "the game" totally oblivious to how it's actually affecting real disadvantaged kids.

Oh the papers would have said this if they had done A

oh in the honesty power rankings of politicians this politician is ranked here.

Try and see it as actual reality and not how it affects the game of Independence/Unionism.

Disadvanatged kids are getting fucked and seeing it as "scalps" for the unionists or what the press would say is childish partisan pish that ignores the actual reality of the decision.

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2 minutes ago, phart said:

 

Too many partisans worrying about how it affects "the game" totally oblivious to how it's actually affecting real disadvantaged kids.

 

These folk are no better than the Tories down south IMO.

Different "games" but both still staggeringly ignorant of the issues outwith their own parochial view/ideals.

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Look at America and the coronavirus that is a direct consequence of everything being viewed through a partisan lens. Where everything is viewed in the context of democrat/republican (independence/unionism) where only it;s relationship to that paradigm is what matters to people as opposed to the actual reality of it.

Blinkered, myopic and just straight up stupid  way of thinking.

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St Josephs in Kilmarnock had 51% of marks downgraded.

Nobody is telling me this is a fair system. Might be the easiest for the SQA/Scot Gov but it certainly isn't the fairest.

Kids in wealthy area's getting marks bumped up and no questions asked but those in deprived areas have just to get on with it as their marks have been downgraded, massively in some cases?

 

Edited by Squirrelhumper
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On 8/8/2020 at 12:58 PM, phart said:

What consultation was done on problem solving he issue, cause they just implemented a system that gave them the result they always want, a slight increase in results...

Weird that after all the turmoil and upheavel the same result came in. Almost as if the system is gamed to provide it.

Would you not expect a small increase though ? Pupils are being examined on course work etc from throughout the year rather than the pressure of a final exam. That in itself would represent a small natural increase as a number of kids struggle with exam conditions and probably do not perform as well as they are capable of. 

I do have a problem with the way in which the teachers grades have just been overruled in order to fit into a historical matrix. But I think this is a lazy approach more than deliberately trying to target disadvantaged pupils. There is a problem with the 20% increase in passes in disadvantaged schools, surely no one really thinks this is possible in 1 year. But a general downgrade is certainly not the answer. 

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10 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

 

I do have a problem with the way in which the teachers grades have just been overruled in order to fit into a historical matrix. But I think this is a lazy approach more than deliberately trying to target disadvantaged pupils. There is a problem with the 20% increase in passes in disadvantaged schools, surely no one really thinks this is possible in 1 year. But a general downgrade is certainly not the answer. 

Exactly my stance.

I'm not saying there isn't an issue but the ones size meets all lazy approach they've taken certainly isn't the answer and they know it.

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18 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

Would you not expect a small increase though ? Pupils are being examined on course work etc from throughout the year rather than the pressure of a final exam. That in itself would represent a small natural increase as a number of kids struggle with exam conditions and probably do not perform as well as they are capable of. 

I do have a problem with the way in which the teachers grades have just been overruled in order to fit into a historical matrix. But I think this is a lazy approach more than deliberately trying to target disadvantaged pupils. There is a problem with the 20% increase in passes in disadvantaged schools, surely no one really thinks this is possible in 1 year. But a general downgrade is certainly not the answer. 

The problem is they measure it in the context of how it relates to other years as opposed to what the actual compentencies of the pupils are. Actually under the SNP results have fell each year (bar one) the trend when I trained and for the rest of the decade after that was an increase each year. (trend lasting well over a decade.)

So instead of measuring and detailing student competencies. I.E. they can differenciate /integrate/ solve these types of molar equation etc, they're instead entered into a relative rankign system against their year group, (as wee-toon red says above).

I'm sure no one was setting out to target folk, but it happened and we have to deal with that reality. It's the unswavering defence of the outcome from the SNP that bothered me. The actual systemic problems have been there for decades and were a problem under Mcconnell as well.

It's entirely possible that 20% extra pupils have the compentencies to achieve an A, but because it's a relative ranking system the system then cannot allow them ALL to have A's. So of course the teachers have to grade on their pupils compentencies as they know them, as they have no idea how other pupils are performing so that can cause the discprenancy, not through the teachers wilfully inflating grades but because the system ranks folk and the teachers dont have access to how every other pupil is doing so it;s impossible for them to work out. They can see Sally can do A B C which shows they should get an A. However since "too many" folk got an A the system says some have to get a B and since Sally goes to a school that historically performed worse she get's the B and Davie who in real terms is no more competent than her (and may even be worse) gets an A cause his school performed historically better. That's the crux of the problem.

 

That's the problem with the ranking system, it isn't telling you peoples absolute knowledge it's telling you how that knowledge ranks with that year group. Plus a slightly stricter marker here or lenient one there might produce a difference of 2 marks, which then makes one person an A and the other a B.

 

Edited by phart
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17 minutes ago, phart said:

The problem is they measure it in the context of how it relates to other years as opposed to what the actual compentencies of the pupils are. Actually under the SNP results have fell each year (bar one) the trend when I trained and for the rest of the decade after that was an increase each year. (trend lasting well over a decade.)

So instead of measuring and detailing student competencies. I.E. they can differenciate /integrate/ solve these types of molar equation etc, they're instead entered into a relative rankign system against their year group, (as wee-toon red says above).

I'm sure no one was setting out to target folk, but it happened and we have to deal with that reality. It's the unswavering defence of the outcome from the SNP that bothered me. The actual systemic problems have been there for decades and were a problem under Mcconnell as well.

It's entirely possible that 20% extra pupils have the compentencies to achieve an A, but because it's a relative ranking system the system then cannot allow them ALL to have A's. So of course the teachers have to grade on their pupils compentencies as they know them, as they have no idea how other pupils are performing so that can cause the discprenancy, not through the teachers wilfully inflating grades but because the system ranks folk and the teachers dont have access to how every other pupil is doing so it;s impossible for them to work out. They can see Sally can do A B C which shows they should get an A. However since "too many" folk got an A the system says some have to get a B and since Sally goes to a school that historically performed worse she get's the B and Davie who in real terms is no more competent than her (and may even be worse) gets an A cause his school performed historically better. That's the crux of the problem.

 

That's the problem with the ranking system, it isn't telling you peoples absolute knowledge it's telling you how that knowledge ranks with that year group. Plus a slightly stricter marker here or lenient one there might produce a difference of 2 marks, which then makes one person an A and the other a B.

 

I am not entirely convinced there could be an uplift of 20% of pupils passing the exam,  but I didn't realise it was a bell curve type ranking. FFS . That is bad enough in the workplace when used for calculating a  bonus structure,  but for school exams that is totally wrong.  

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6 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I am not entirely convinced there could be an uplift of 20% of pupils passing the exam,  but I didn't realise it was a bell curve type ranking. FFS . That is bad enough in the workplace when used for calculating a  bonus structure,  but for school exams that is totally wrong.  

Waterfall effect is the teminology

 

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1 hour ago, Squirrelhumper said:

You can't see why kids who got a A in their prelims but a C awarded by the SQA, despite their teachers predicting an A, is faux anger?

The fact that Swinney was backtracking last night means there is some substance to the "faux" anger.

If he falls on his sword over this then Honest John will have caused it himself.

Some of the head in the sand stuff I see from fellow SNP/Yes voters is staggering. You are allowed to question the SNP you know, even if they'd prefer you not to. They aren't incapable of making fuck ups.

Perhaps if they spent more time on education rather than their current trend of trying to be as woke as possible, then we might not have kids needing to display faux anger after being shafted.

When you are dealing with that amount of folk there will always be mistakes, if in the case pupils got a A in prelims and don't get it corrected in their appeals then there are problems, and yes there is definitely faux angers 

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Lets be honest, its a situation where there was always going to be a carry on, whether the went with the 20% better pass rate from teachers or the methodology that has been used,i am confident the appeal process will be fair And sturgeon is making the right noises 

Edited by hampden_loon2878
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1 hour ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

Lets be honest, its a situation where there was always going to be a carry on, whether the went with the 20% better pass rate from teachers or the methodology that has been used,i am confident the appeal process will be fair And sturgeon is making the right noises 

Making the right noises and actions are entirely different.

Glad to see she is at least admitting now it's a fuck up, unlike some of her supporters.

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18 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Making the right noises and actions are entirely different.

Glad to see she is at least admitting now it's a fuck up, unlike some of her supporters.

They got it wrong without a doubt , but the  vote of no confidence being tabled by opposition parties is pretty shabby and opportunistic. 

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41 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

They got it wrong without a doubt , but the  vote of no confidence being tabled by opposition parties is pretty shabby and opportunistic. 

of course it is, they're politicians.

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/sp/?id=2000-12-13.841.0

Here's when the other parties did it back in 2000 after a fuck up by the SQA. Nicola Sturgeon and John Swinney feature heavily in the calling for a vote of no confidence.

As Swinney said then

"That raises the question of what the point of parliamentary democracy is, if not to allow the Opposition to hold the Executive to account for its actions and to hold ministers responsible for their decisions and for the powers that they have."

 

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Anyway i see they have backtracked after much soul searching. So be good to see what get's done to fix it. Glad the threat of being held accountable has made them accountable and we'l get action.

Defending an egregious system was always the wrong move. I hope it's a catalyst for a major change and not just a sop to remove the threat of Swinney losing a vote of confidence.

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6 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

It was always going to be difficult, how would have you dealt with it

Not by marking pupils down based on nothing else than how their school has performed in the past.

4 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

Thats the faux anger i was referring to, not from actual students. Buch of charlatans the lot of them 

Swinney being one of them.

Can't have your cake and eat it. He (and plenty in the SNP) have been opportunistic in the past when it suited them.

You can't have it both ways.

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1 minute ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Not by marking pupils down based on nothing else than how their school has performed in the past.

Swinney being one of them.

Can't have your cake and eat it. He (and plenty in the SNP) have been opportunistic in the past when it suited them.

You can't have it both ways.

You judge swinney how you want, i will hold mine. Lets see how this pans out before passing judgement, its unprecedented and difficult,they will get it right  

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Listen if someone wants to give me the resources and information that the Scottish Government has i'll gladly spend the dozens of man hours writing out how the plan should have been done, until you can do that, asking what the plan should have been is a defunct question. It's sophistry to try and equate "well you couldn't do it any better so by some weird logic saying it should have been done better iholds no merit", it's not a valid argument.

Unless it's actually another point that is being made but that isn't clear at all.

 

Edited by phart
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Funny in this no one is talking about how bright kids in disadvantaged areas are being treated unfairly, it's all about how SNP are being treated unfairly or useless platitudes about having faith etc.

La la land partisanship, it's frightening we're going to end up like America with statue guarders on one side and Independence pastors on the other.

The problem here is hundreds potentially thousands of kids from depirved areas have obviously been given the wrong results which jeopardises their choices going forward.

 

Edited by phart
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