Black Lives Matter... in Scotland

[phart]

14 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

I thought defunding the police sounded bat shit mental but it is really just a really badly worded slogan.  John Oliver on Sky Atlantic did a good piece explaining it and as it stands the top 3 funded armed forces worldwide are: 1) US military 2) Chinese military and 3) US police

Essentially they just want to divvy it up better as the spending on rehabilitation / prevention is peanuts compared to the % we spend on it.  They defunded New Jersey 7 years ago but what that meant was the entire force had to reapply for their jobs due to systemic corruption and since then crime there has dropped 50%.  They're sitting at a reoffending rate of about 80% and only about 30% correctional facilities offer college level education - of those prisoners attaining college level qualifications less than 20% re-offend.   

 

 

 

 

   

 

 

 

That's why folk need to read beyond the headlines in life.

[aaid]

14 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

I thought defunding the police sounded bat shit mental but it is really just a really badly worded slogan.  John Oliver on Sky Atlantic did a good piece explaining it and as it stands the top 3 funded armed forces worldwide are: 1) US military 2) Chinese military and 3) US police

Essentially they just want to divvy it up better as the spending on rehabilitation / prevention is peanuts compared to the % we spend on it.  They defunded New Jersey 7 years ago but what that meant was the entire force had to reapply for their jobs due to systemic corruption and since then crime there has dropped 50%.  They're sitting at a reoffending rate of about 80% and only about 30% correctional facilities offer college level education - of those prisoners attaining college level qualifications less than 20% re-offend.   

I think that was only one force - Camden - rather than state wide, but as you said, it worked.   

That was the most radical example - and as you said was driven by a desire to root out corruption - where essentially the only option was to tear the whole thing down and rebuild it in a different model.

There are other examples in the US which are less radical but where funding has been diverted away from "front-line" policing and into support services and that's showing a reduction in crime rates.

It's less extreme in the UK but the same problems exist in that it's very difficult - if not impossible - to have a grown up conversation about crime, policing, punishment, prisons and rehabilitation.  

Here there is a prevailing attitude - in the public and so reflected in politicians - that the way to deal with crime - and in particular violent crime, is harsher sentences which is completely contrary to the evidence - harsher sentences don't lead to a reduction in crime.   

[phart]

3 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

What the hell is a CHOP zone was my first reaction. Murica is a fucked up place

It's an acronym for Capitol Hill Occupied Protest zone.

The incident in question had both parties shooting at each other. Which is fucked up.

Here's the daily mail account of the surveillance video.

In surveillance video, multiple gunshots could be heard in the distance in the minutes before the Jeep could be seen tearing around the corner.

A female CHOP protester could be heard screaming for their self-appointed security to have their 'eyes up' because there were 'two people with guns' in a 'stolen white Jeep'.

When the Jeep came around the corner moments later, at least three loud gunshots could be heard before the teens crashed into the barricade. About a dozen shots were fired after the car crashed. It is not clear from the footage who the first gunshots came from.

A male could be heard in the surveillance screaming: 'Get on the ground', 'Oh you're not dead huh?' and 'You want to get pistol-whipped?' 

 

[vanderark14]

13 minutes ago, phart said:

It's an acronym for Capitol Hill Occupied Protest zone.

The incident in question had both parties shooting at each other. Which is fucked up.

Here's the daily mail account of the surveillance video.

In surveillance video, multiple gunshots could be heard in the distance in the minutes before the Jeep could be seen tearing around the corner.

A female CHOP protester could be heard screaming for their self-appointed security to have their 'eyes up' because there were 'two people with guns' in a 'stolen white Jeep'.

When the Jeep came around the corner moments later, at least three loud gunshots could be heard before the teens crashed into the barricade. About a dozen shots were fired after the car crashed. It is not clear from the footage who the first gunshots came from.

A male could be heard in the surveillance screaming: 'Get on the ground', 'Oh you're not dead huh?' and 'You want to get pistol-whipped?' 

 

That sounds like something from an action film 😲

[thplinth]

So how many days was it from ANTIFA/BLM abolishing the police inside the 'CHAZ' and replacing them with ANTIFA/BLM's own 'security' to them shooting dead a black 16 year old boy and putting another 14 year old black boy in critical condition?

It seems a little ironic somehow. I guess being a cop is not is easy as they thought.

[phart]

8 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

That sounds like something from an action film 😲

It's very mental.

There's slight differences between gun fights, neck kneeling, or no knock warrants though. You can either see the differences or you think they are equivalent.

Your criticism thplinth can't be taken seriously when you clearly don't understand the argument that you're debating.

Quite mental to actually see someone get radicalised and americanised before your very eyes.

Not that the situation isn't a total shit-show of course OK Corral situations happening all over the shop.

[thplinth]

In the Daily Mail story i linked to there is a video of an ANTIFA guy in a beak mask answering questions. It would be hilarious were it not so tragic. They shot these kids and tampered with the crime scene so take it with a rather large pinch of salt. But he claims there was an altercation that went on all night which they tried to de-escalate but failed several times... so they ended shooting the kids in the end. 

You know what would have most likely avoided this outcome... calling the cops.

ps phart you are so up ANTIFA's arse why should I take anything you say seriously. I think it is you who has been sucked into a pile of shit to be honest.

[phart]

7 minutes ago, thplinth said:

ps phart you are so up ANTIFA's arse why should I take anything you say seriously. I think it is you who has been sucked into a pile of shit to be honest.

This is how far gone you are. You think i'm up ANTIFA's arse even though this is me posting on them on here.

On 6/1/2020 at 7:21 PM, phart said:

Antifa are just as bad as the folk they purport to protest again.

Not really the focal point of this story though for me though.

On 6/1/2020 at 2:12 PM, Mox said:

Your against Anti Facism, your a fascist, right wing apologist. There's no grey area here, you pick a side, good or bad and you've picked the bad, good luck to you.

 

On 6/1/2020 at 2:37 PM, phart said:

Just cause you name yourself AntiFA doesn't mkae you AntiFA.

It's ludicrous this train of thought.

If the peace and prosperity party start bombing shit, saying stuff against them doesn't make you against peace and prosperity.

I'm beginning to see why it's so easy to drum up a mob.

 

 

[ThistleWhistle]

50 minutes ago, aaid said:

I think that was only one force - Camden - rather than state wide, but as you said, it worked.   

That was the most radical example - and as you said was driven by a desire to root out corruption - where essentially the only option was to tear the whole thing down and rebuild it in a different model.

There are other examples in the US which are less radical but where funding has been diverted away from "front-line" policing and into support services and that's showing a reduction in crime rates.

It's less extreme in the UK but the same problems exist in that it's very difficult - if not impossible - to have a grown up conversation about crime, policing, punishment, prisons and rehabilitation.  

Here there is a prevailing attitude - in the public and so reflected in politicians - that the way to deal with crime - and in particular violent crime, is harsher sentences which is completely contrary to the evidence - harsher sentences don't lead to a reduction in crime.   

If it wasn't in such tragic and mental circumstances it is really interesting to see how their system operates (or doesn't).  There's supposed to be an avalanche of evictions coming from today as, although evictions were prohibited until today, apply for them wasn't so it's got potential to get even worse quickly.  

On a tangent looked at re-offending in UK and it sits at 75% but Scotland's seems to piss all over that.  Be interesting to know if that's right and what we're doing differently.   

[thplinth]

I am sitting here laughing phart at you saying 'radicalized'. Swear to God but for the last year at least (but probably closer to two I cant be sure) I have been half wondering if you had joined ANTIFA. I guess radicalized is in the eye of the beholder. Funny.

[TDYER63]

1 hour ago, ParisInAKilt said:

BLM is a political movement though. His comments are fairly uncontroversial and rather than him being a celebrity throwing in his opinion, he was forced to defend his decision to not wanting to wear the pin. 

You can still want Scottish independence without supporting the yes campaign or SNP, the same way you can support black people without endorsing BLM. 

Well his uncontroversial comments seem to have stirred up a bit of a hornets nest 😊 ( I dont necessarily mean on here)

It would seem he is a bit more outspoken on political issues than your typical football pundit. Climate change , Brexit etc. I doubt he was ‘forced‘ too much to defend his decision. 

Agree with your last paragraph. My logic was back to front. 

[ThistleWhistle]

1 hour ago, phart said:

That's why folk need to read beyond the headlines in life.

Guilty as charged on that one as just saw the slogan and folk losing it about replacing them with folk from the community.  Had visions of middle aged black women running about with badges and whistles shouting 'On no you didn't! Yo mumma goin' woop yo ass!'  

Which, although might actually be better than what's in place now, was ignorant and racist so have submitted myself for re-education.  

 

[phart]

46 minutes ago, thplinth said:

I am sitting here laughing phart at you saying 'radicalized'. Swear to God but for the last year at least (but probably closer to two I cant be sure) I have been half wondering if you had joined ANTIFA. I guess radicalized is in the eye of the beholder. Funny.

My thoughts on Antifa were posted on here already and reproduced in my last post. Of course you ignore them to preserve your world view. I must be antifa cause you operate in a partisan binary paradigm.  It's total radicalism.

Sitting thinking about me off board shows you've defo too much time on your hands.

[phart]

17 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

Guilty as charged on that one as just saw the slogan and folk losing it about replacing them with folk from the community.  Had visions of middle aged black women running about with badges and whistles shouting 'On no you didn't! Yo mumma goin' woop yo ass!'  

Which, although might actually be better than what's in place now, was ignorant and racist so have submitted myself for re-education.  

 

Everyone does it, it's as much as a self reminder as an admonition to anyone else.

[TDYER63]

42 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

Guilty as charged on that one as just saw the slogan and folk losing it about replacing them with folk from the community.  Had visions of middle aged black women running about with badges and whistles shouting 'On no you didn't! Yo mumma goin' woop yo ass!'  

Which, although might actually be better than what's in place now, was ignorant and racist so have submitted myself for re-education.  

 

Oi , dont be so ‘middle age womanist ! 

[thplinth]

1 hour ago, phart said:

Quite mental to actually see someone get radicalised and americanised before your very eyes.

 

7 minutes ago, phart said:

My thoughts on Antifa were posted on here already and reproduced in my last post. Of course you ignore them to preserve your world view. I must be antifa cause you operate in a partisan binary paradigm.  It's total radicalism.

Sitting thinking about me off board shows you've defo too much time on your hands.

Maybe should take your own advice there phart. You are not the only one allowed an opinion. You have been telling me yours enough so now I am telling you mine.

 

[phart]

6 minutes ago, thplinth said:

 

Maybe should take your own advice there phart. You are not the only one allowed an opinion. You have been telling me yours enough so now I am telling you mine.

 

No one denying the right to opinions just pointing out the absurdity of one of those opinions in the face of the evidence.

[thplinth]

I have been open about what I dislike. What is loosely referred to as Identity politics.

This is what the ‘left’ is now. They used to use class as the political wedge but it historically failed and so they replaced class wars with identity wars, i.e. race, gender, sexuality became the new class. These became their political wedges. 

Like their predecessors communists i find them extremely poisonous and dangerous. This is why I oppose them all the way.

So who are huge proponents of identity politics right now? The US Democrats, BLM, ANTIFA and the sadly the SNP. Which is why I have a problem with all of them.

The SNP in particular are politically speaking waaaay way to the left of Portland. What a huge turn-off they are now. 

[exile]

8 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

 

You can still want Scottish independence without supporting the yes campaign or SNP, the same way you can support black people without endorsing BLM. 

 

Yes, that's the same parallel I was saying earlier. People can criticise a specific party or organisation, but you can still support the more general movement.

It depends if by "BLM" you mean you support a particular organisation, such as this, or just mean you "support black people" in some other way. 

I guess everyone has a different take on it but for me, the important point of the broader "black lives matter" agenda is to be on the side of reform, and not only recognising but rebalancing things to redress systematic disadvantage; rather than simply saying all races are or should be equal. Everyone is free to adopt a position on the spectrum. But I guess I'm saying that criticism of BLM the US organisation isn't / needn't / shouldn't be taken as an argument to resist reform here.

 

Edited July 1, 2020 by exile

[SpecialisedOutsourcing]

1 hour ago, thplinth said:

So who are huge proponents of identity politics right now? The US Democrats, BLM, ANTIFA and the sadly the SNP. Which is why I have a problem with all of them.

No mention of any Far Right group at all? Are the KKK just pro-hood rather than pro-white? No Pro-Zionist organisations? The Taliban?

[phart]

It's amusing, for thousands of years humans have been discrinating based on gender,race and sexuality. An idealogy comes into being that says that's wrong , and then folk complain they're making it about sexuality gender and race.

It's about equality and what shape that takes is based on what folk use to discriminate, the folk calling for equality didn't pick the battle lines.

Funny that the fight occurs where the inequality exists, imagine that what a surprise...

 

[phart]

all viewed through binoculars of the simplistic left/right paradigm. a 2 dimensional concept trying to map a multi-dimensional reality. Doomed to be able to articulate reality because of it's own inherent limits.

[thplinth]

Arrogance is a poor imitation of intelligence.

[aaid]

39 minutes ago, phart said:

It's amusing, for thousands of years humans have been discrinating based on gender,race and sexuality. An idealogy comes into being that says that's wrong , and then folk complain they're making it about sexuality gender and race.

It's about equality and what shape that takes is based on what folk use to discriminate, the folk calling for equality didn't pick the battle lines.

Funny that the fight occurs where the inequality exists, imagine that what a surprise...

 

An observation might be that that people who say they are opposed to identity politics are usually uncomfortable with some identities but completely comfortable with others.

Edited July 1, 2020 by aaid

[phart]

11 minutes ago, thplinth said:

Arrogance is a poor imitation of intelligence.

Another vaccous slogan with no basis in fact.

People with higher ‘intellectual arrogance’ get better grades, study finds

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0092656615300039