Black Lives Matter... in Scotland

[ThistleWhistle]

1 minute ago, thplinth said:

For anyone interested Guy Birchall did a piece recently that is worth a read. 

Refugee with anti-homosexual history slaughters 3 gay men during Pride Month, but it’s TOO EARLY to speculate about homophobia?

Far-right hatred and terrorism in Britain is rightly condemned for what it is – indeed, people are often so quick to condemn it, they often turn out to have been mistaken. But for some reason, attacks perpetrated by suspected Islamic terrorists always require “more information.” Their ideology can’t have been the main motivating factor, it’s claimed. No, that would have to be “Western foreign policy” or “institutional racism” or “lack of opportunity.”

The simple answer as to why this happens has to be that it doesn’t fit in with the prevailing narrative. We’ve had weeks of Black Lives Matter protests in this country, following the death of a man 4,000 miles away. Yet three gay men are slaughtered in our own backyard and there’s not a hint of a protest – in fact, their deaths were lower on yesterday’s news agenda than the trailing of a potentially racist airplane banner.

Speculating on motivation can at times be dangerous, but for it to be done with impunity in one instance and actively stifled in another is a ridiculous double standard. What it reveals is that, for some reason, an ethnic-minority refugee turned potential Islamic terrorist outranks three gay men in the victimhood hierarchy, regardless of who is doing the stabbing and who is doing the dying.

The Reading suspect converted to Christianity, has a big cross tattoo and volunteered in a Baptist church.       

[phart]

Mind the big debate on here about using "gay" as a perjorative and Jam being banned for it and what side everyone was on in that case.

[phart]

11 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

The Reading suspect converted to Christianity, has a big cross tattoo and volunteered in a Baptist church.       

He reportedly fled Libya cause of "Islamists" as well. He does sound Muslimy so there is that...

 

 

[aaid]

15 minutes ago, phart said:

He reportedly fled Libya cause of "Islamists" as well. He does sound Muslimy so there is that...

 

 

The reports from his sister that he'd been having mental issues are also of interest.

On the other hand, the police were initially very careful to downplay any terrorist link, that they weren't looking at that but were keeping an open mind.   Then they searched his flat and the following day, he was re-arrested under prevention of terrorism legislation.  So perhaps they found something there to suggest some form of radicalisation.   Being arrested under PoT legislation gives the police great leeway, eg., someone can be held without charge for a lot longer before being released so maybe they were taking a flyer.  However, given the guy had killed three people, in crowded park, in front of numerous witnesses and was apprehended at the scene, I don't think he's being released anytime in the next 20 years or so.

Short answer - who knows.

[thplinth]

5 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

The Reading suspect converted to Christianity, has a big cross tattoo and volunteered in a Baptist church.       

You obviously never read the article before replying. 

There seems to be some confusion about whether he is a Muslim or had converted to Christianity. A man purporting to be his cousin claims he converted to Christianity three years ago, but his mother is reported as saying he “struggled during Ramadan,” which would be an odd statement were he a Christian. However, regardless of which religion he subscribes to, it appears he has a pretty Biblical/Koranic view of homosexuality. He had been known to anti-terrorism agencies since last year, although they’d failed to open a file on him.

It had to be about being anti Muslim in your mind though didn't it. Hence your post about him being Christian as if that changed anything.

Can Christians not be homophobic then. Talk about completely missing the point.

[vanderark14]

2 hours ago, scotlad said:

I can't think what actual crime has been committed there (although, to be honest, I'm not qualified to say!). 

Seemingly the boy behind it has lost his job as a consequence of the banner though - as has his girlfriend.

Two very stupid people, re-education may have been a better option than firing them from their jobs

[aaid]

22 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

Two very stupid people, re-education may have been a better option than firing them from their jobs

Apparently Blackpool airport - where the company who flew the plane is based - has suspended all banner flights.  Not sure if that's only impacting this company or whether it also impacts others, but this seems to have backfired pretty badly for all involved.   

You'd like to think that it would make them look at their actions, maybe the company will do, but clearly their ethics are shaky to say the least.

Those who paid for it on the other hand are only likely to use it to further fuel their warped view that they're being victimised.

Edited June 25, 2020 by aaid

[aaid]

His comment is priceless:

Quote

 

Hepple told MailOnline: "I'm not racist. I know people are trying to make out to be one but I'm not. I've got lots of black and Asian friends and this banner was actually inspired by the Black Lives Movement.

"We were not trying to offend the movement or black people.

"I believe that it's also important to acknowledge that white lives matter too. That's all we were trying to say."

He added: "My employer, the club and so many other people have completely overreacted to what's happened."

 

 

[ParisInAKilt]

The reaction from the club, media and his employers seems counter productive. 

[vanderark14]

14 minutes ago, aaid said:

Apparently Blackpool airport - where the company who flew the plane is based - has suspended all banner flights.  Not sure if that's only impacting this company or whether it also impacts others, but this seems to have backfired pretty badly for all involved.   

You'd like to think that it would make them look at their actions, maybe the company will do, but clearly their ethics are shaky to say the least.

Those who paid for it on the other hand are only likely to use it to further fuel their warped view that their being victimised.

I mentioned the airport earlier, they must be thick as fuck or in on the message.

 

 

[ParisInAKilt]

29 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

Two very stupid people, re-education may have been a better option than firing them from their jobs

Re-education that white lives don’t matter?  

[aaid]

Just now, ParisInAKilt said:

The reaction from the club, media and his employers seems counter productive. 

How so?  In that it's unlikely to make him change his views, I'd agree but then I'm not sure he'd be likely to do that - this is a guy with a history of involvement with far right groups.   Doesn't seem to be the sharpest knife in the drawer tbf.  

From the club and employers perspective, I'd suggest the opposite and not taking any action would be counter-productive for them, but hey, if any Nazis in the Burnley area want to take their welding business elsewhere, that's just a price they'll have to pay.

[thplinth]

2 minutes ago, aaid said:

... but hey, if any Nazis in the Burnley area want to take their welding business elsewhere, that's just a price they'll have to pay.

Aye those Left Wing Nationalists are for the watching.

[aaid]

5 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

I mentioned the airport earlier, they must be thick as fuck or in on the message.

 

 

I suspect that they'll just go with anything that isn't obviously illegal as long as people are paying.   

Just had a look at their twitter and they were the one's that flew the "BA BETRAYAL" over Goodison at the weekend - they were publicising that pretty freely, been a bit quiet since Monday though.

I imagine for them it'll just be a rap across the knuckles from the airport and a guarantee they'll be a bit more choosy in future.

[ParisInAKilt]

Just now, aaid said:

How so?  In that it's unlikely to make him change his views, I'd agree but then I'm not sure he'd be likely to do that - this is a guy with a history of involvement with far right groups.   Doesn't seem to be the sharpest knife in the drawer tbf.  

From the club and employers perspective, I'd suggest the opposite and not taking any action would be counter-productive for them, but hey, if any Nazis in the Burnley area want to take their welding business elsewhere, that's just a price they'll have to pay.

As you said above, it will be used by him and others to show he’s been victimised. 

[aaid]

Just now, ParisInAKilt said:

As you said above, it will be used by him and others to show he’s been victimised. 

True - but then what's the alternative?

You say or do nothing which by implication condones it and which then brings condemnation on the company?   

His employer didn't create this situation.

[ParisInAKilt]

4 minutes ago, aaid said:

True - but then what's the alternative?

You say or do nothing which by implication condones it and which then brings condemnation on the company?   

His employer didn't create this situation.

What’s he done wrong? 

[aaid]

Just now, ParisInAKilt said:

What’s he done wrong? 

He hasn't done anything illegal.   Wrong is a question of morals, is subjective and is for everyone to decide themselves.

What has he done to justify summary dismissal is another matter.   Obviously I'm not aware of the detail of his contract but pretty much every contract of employment has a clause in it which will state to effect of "if you do anything which reflects badly on the company, you'll be subject to disciplinary action up to and including dismissal".

That isn't limited to things that happen in work or in the process of going about your job.  It can cover events totally unrelated - like this - but which connect back to your company.   

Now, he'd be fully entitled to bring a case for unfair dismissal and if he did then the employer would have to justify that.   I'm not a lawyer but I imagine the sort of things they'd have to prove would be:  was it intentional; could the outcome have been reasonably predicted; what was the reputational damage to the employer as a result 

On that basis, I think he'd struggle.

[ThistleWhistle]

6 minutes ago, thplinth said:

You obviously never read the article before replying. 

There seems to be some confusion about whether he is a Muslim or had converted to Christianity. A man purporting to be his cousin claims he converted to Christianity three years ago, but his mother is reported as saying he “struggled during Ramadan,” which would be an odd statement were he a Christian. However, regardless of which religion he subscribes to, it appears he has a pretty Biblical/Koranic view of homosexuality. He had been known to anti-terrorism agencies since last year, although they’d failed to open a file on him.

It had to be about being anti Muslim in your mind though didn't it. Hence your post about him being Christian as if that changed anything.

Can Christians not be homophobic then. Talk about completely missing the point.

Not missing the point at all -  you specifically chose that passage to cut and paste in so was the key information you wanted to disseminate.  If the speculation around whether he was an Islamic terrorist or a Christian (terrorist) had been as important to you it would have been copied in or you'd have written about it so don't think it is me who missed the point.  

It's a bit of a jump suggesting I don't believe Christians can be homophobic which is a bit of a daft question - a more interesting question will be finding out if a Christian will still be viewed as a terrorist.  

On being conflicted an old girlfriend of mine who was vegetarian struggled hungover to avoid bacon butties - doesn't mean she's a  raging maniac carnivore does it.  A big tattoo of a cross would seem a fair commitment if he wasn't sure.      

The inference is hardly subtle though that your real question is why is a brown bloke who stabbed 3 people less of a story than a white bloke flying a banner.  My answer to that is it may have been different if he had shouted for Allah or left a letter looking forward to accessing 100 virgins and/ or if the gender of the victims had been different rather than sexuality.  I'd say the banner is also getting more traction because it plays into current tribal politics with both sides pissed off at perceived racial prejudice impacting their lives over either centuries or the last month or two depending which side you're on.    

Additionally I'd ask why both of these stories have gained more traction than a black on black stabbing in London? 

 

 

[thplinth]

Pretty impossible to argue that Black Lives Matter is legally and morally acceptable and at the same time that White Lives Matter is not without sounding like a racist yourself. Both are obviously just as acceptable as each other. How can they not be. 

 

[thplinth]

2 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

Not missing the point at all ...

Yeah you did. 

Also why are you asking me all these dumb questions when you can just go read it for yourself. (Don't bother answering.)

[ParisInAKilt]

28 minutes ago, aaid said:

He hasn't done anything illegal.   Wrong is a question of morals, is subjective and is for everyone to decide themselves.

What has he done to justify summary dismissal is another matter.   Obviously I'm not aware of the detail of his contract but pretty much every contract of employment has a clause in it which will state to effect of "if you do anything which reflects badly on the company, you'll be subject to disciplinary action up to and including dismissal".

That isn't limited to things that happen in work or in the process of going about your job.  It can cover events totally unrelated - like this - but which connect back to your company.   

Now, he'd be fully entitled to bring a case for unfair dismissal and if he did then the employer would have to justify that.   I'm not a lawyer but I imagine the sort of things they'd have to prove would be:  was it intentional; could the outcome have been reasonably predicted; what was the reputational damage to the employer as a result 

On that basis, I think he'd struggle.

Hopefully he does seek unfair dismissal just to see his company justify why 

[aaid]

10 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Hopefully he does seek unfair dismissal just to see his company justify why 

I suspect any lawyer would suggest that he would be wasting his time.  Maybe you could start a crowdfunder but I'd imagine the argument won't be so different from what I outlined.

[thplinth]

His company would not have sacked him if the banner had said Black Lives Matter so why sack him for saying White Lives Matter. There is only one word that is different. Black versus White. 

Do explain how one gets you fired and the other does not.

[ParisInAKilt]

6 minutes ago, aaid said:

I suspect any lawyer would suggest that he would be wasting his time.  Maybe you could start a crowdfunder but I'd imagine the argument won't be so different from what I outlined.

I’m not that invested in the poor lad but I’m sure some lawyer would take the case if he was getting paid.