Old Firm Colts Teams...

[Diamond Scot]

10 hours ago, dandydunn said:

Again, you havent really responded to anything that I said, merely making more points to try and back up your rants. 
 

Oh and for the record, Andy Robertson was at Queens Park aftwr Celtic releases him and made his natural progression up through the leagues and into the big time. 
 

Who was the last player rangers produced to have the same rise?

Not sure my posts can be described as a rant but hey ho.

What part of your post would you like an answer on? Ive stated that Rangers dont bring through enough youth and ive suggested a reason why I think that is. 

Billy Gilmour would be the most recent player that came through the Rangers academy however he obviously left for chelsea. Most Scotland youth teams have Rangers and Celtic players.

Again your Andy Robertson point shows why colt teams could be a good idea. He wasnt deemed good enough at the time to challenge for Celtics 1st team (because at that time he wasnt). If Celtic had a colt team he could have went there and developed. There will be loads of players who possibly could have developed later given game time however lots get lost to the game when released.

Depriving smaller clubs of Old Firm loans is hardly backing up your position of ambitious progressive clubs in these leagues. Why do they need Old Firm loans? 

Answer me this. Player X is 17 and contracted to Rangers. He isnt challenging for 1st team and could benefit from competitive football. He can either A) Get loaned to a part time club that train a few nights a week, with limited facilites and coaches and then play with part time teammates or  Train at a top class training facility with professional coaches every day, playing alongside professional full time teammates and at the weekend play competitive football.  Where do you think he has the best chance of improving and why?

If Colt teams bring no benefit, can you explain to me why every major league in Europe allows colt teams. With the exception of England where developing youth is recognised as being an issue.

[beardy]

7 minutes ago, stocky said:

I think the proposal is worth considering . The positives far outweigh the negatives.

It is pleasing to see Rangers contributing positively to this.

Dont let anti old firm biasis blinker the points and good ideas  raised 

100.000 +Scottish football fans watch and support these teams , they do contibute massively to our game as much as we would like it otherwise. 

If as @Debian  says  ( Spain, France, Holland, Italy, Germany and Portugal) (no doubt there are others, would be good to find similar sizerd country examples).

They have colt teams for their big guns, why the Phukk are we so special than we shouldnt do the same ?  

All those guys are better than us , every one of them. 

The current system does not produce enough/any quality players ie players who are good enbough to qualify for international  tournamants. 

Andy Robertson is the only Scottish guy in 20 years to win a major tournament,and Darren Fletcher won the EPL a few times. Thats it , thats PISH.

Scotland has fallen behind every other European Nation. (20 + years of non qualification)  I realise the plans are not to create players for Scotland, however better players for Rangers and better players for Celtic will ensure better players for Scotland. 

The current system in Shite lets do this for 5 years . what do we have to lose. 

FFS the league currently produces players who are not good enough to qualify to tournaments.

 

I think there should be 2 teams relegated from the Prem in this proposal, but i can see why its not proposed( it would frighten a few of the lower teams) 

The regionalisation of the non old firm colt teams shouls also be considered without blinkers. Surely Killie and Motherwell colts would be better playing Auchinleck/Shotts/Linlithgow/Beith etc rather than wee friendly games with other pampered under 21 teams. Get the boys to play against men that what the coaches are saying we need, this would ennsure it will happen.

 

We cant continue to do the same and expect differnt results. 

 

 

Whilst Scotland may have fallen behind other European teams lets not get all misty eyed about our national team.

We have won 4 games, that's all, 4.fvcking games in the world cup. We have always been shite. We as a nation love our football but we're crap.

If you think this will somehow make us better it won't. I don't know what the solution us but this is a load of shit. Rangers have a really poor record of developing youth.  That can't be ignored. They had the perfect opportunity to blood youngsters in a stress free environment and they achieved nothing.

We would be better letting colt teams from England in if they would guarantee a certain number of players were Scottish. 

 

[Fairbairn]

27 minutes ago, stocky said:

I think the proposal is worth considering . The positives far outweigh the negatives.

It is pleasing to see Rangers contributing positively to this.

Dont let anti old firm biasis blinker the points and good ideas  raised 

100.000 +Scottish football fans watch and support these teams , they do contibute massively to our game as much as we would like it otherwise. 

If as @Debian  says  ( Spain, France, Holland, Italy, Germany and Portugal) (no doubt there are others, would be good to find similar sizerd country examples).

They have colt teams for their big guns, why the Phukk are we so special than we shouldnt do the same ?  

All those guys are better than us , every one of them. 

The current system does not produce enough/any quality players ie players who are good enbough to qualify for international  tournamants. 

Andy Robertson is the only Scottish guy in 20 years to win a major tournament,and Darren Fletcher won the EPL a few times. Thats it , thats PISH.

Scotland has fallen behind every other European Nation. (20 + years of non qualification)  I realise the plans are not to create players for Scotland, however better players for Rangers and better players for Celtic will ensure better players for Scotland. 

The current system in Shite lets do this for 5 years . what do we have to lose. 

FFS the league currently produces players who are not good enough to qualify to tournaments.

 

I think there should be 2 teams relegated from the Prem in this proposal, but i can see why its not proposed( it would frighten a few of the lower teams) 

The regionalisation of the non old firm colt teams shouls also be considered without blinkers. Surely Killie and Motherwell colts would be better playing Auchinleck/Shotts/Linlithgow/Beith etc rather than wee friendly games with other pampered under 21 teams. Get the boys to play against men that what the coaches are saying we need, this would ennsure it will happen.

 

We cant continue to do the same and expect differnt results. 

 

 

Without wanting to detract from your main points, Darren Fletcher has a Champions League winners medal.  He's also joint 11th in the list of players to win the EPL the most times.

[Tartan_McCole]

53 minutes ago, stocky said:

Andy Robertson is the only Scottish guy in 20 years to win a major tournament,and Darren Fletcher won the EPL a few times. Thats it , thats PISH.

Does Fletchers Champions League win with Man United in 2008 no count?

Edit: Pointed about above. Nevermind!

Edited June 8, 2020 by Tartan_McCole

[ThistleWhistle]

I think there is a separate issue around competitiveness that this  won’t sort.  In Holland AZ were joint top and the next nearest ‘diddy’ was 12 points behind.  In Portugal it was 14 points to Braga and 20 to Famalicao – in Scotland the nearest diddy had nearly half the points of Celtic!  Playing the OF 8 times over a season even if you win 2 home games but lose the other 6 you’re 12 points adrift.  If you only played them twice each and managed to win once at home and draw the other but lose both away you’ve barely lost any ground and then are playing teams with comparable resource for the rest of the season. 

 

I quite like the colt team idea on the face of it but would depend how it was implemented.  It’s obviously going to be better for Rangers/Celtic players continuing to train there whilst playing competitive football.  Lower league teams would get a bit of extra wedge and would no doubt get extra gates for the OF as locals in Forfar, Montrose, etc turn out to watch their chosen team.  Not sure if it would generate extra bums on seats over a season or exacerbate the decline of local teams though.

 

The worry for me is they just hoover up anyone semi-decent who is getting SPL games and then end up punting them to the lower leagues for a couple of seasons stunting their development. 

 

Another slight worry is the Dutch model works because Ajax can buy local talent then flog them to the bigger leagues plus their Champions League money.  In the next couple of seasons there might not be the same sort of transfer fees being spent so the bright side would be more talent staying local but it’s a big hole in the business model if you need to sell players to balance the books.     

 

How crap the SPL is just now anyone with any real ambition or talent should be looking to get out by the time they’re 23 so it’s a balancing act between trying to increase the number of youngsters who’re looking to move on asap with older plodders who’re happy to sit on their respective contracts.  At the minute Celtic and Rangers aren’t going to get through the Champions League group stages beyond the odd fluke and nobody in the SPL is going to challenge them for the title so something needs to change if that’s to improve for everyone. 

 

I was 12 during Euro 92 and hadn’t realised how competitive we were and didn’t realise until yesterday CIS would have likely qualified by beating us.  The quality of the 15 SPL players in that squad compared to today is really quite sad and indicative of how shit the league has become. 

[Rolling hIlls]

Just watched Scotland v Holland in 78.  The standard was fantastic in both sides.  Never realised how good a player Tam Forsyth was.  So what happened?  Largs, Andy Roxburgh and Craig Levein.  Coached us out of being a football nation.  The Dutch were terrified of Dalglish and Jordan.  Where did they get coached?  Rant over.  If Rangers can bring about change then I am proud of them.

[Farcity]

3 hours ago, Diamond Scot said:

Not sure my posts can be described as a rant but hey ho.

What part of your post would you like an answer on? Ive stated that Rangers dont bring through enough youth and ive suggested a reason why I think that is. 

Billy Gilmour would be the most recent player that came through the Rangers academy however he obviously left for chelsea. Most Scotland youth teams have Rangers and Celtic players.

Again your Andy Robertson point shows why colt teams could be a good idea. He wasnt deemed good enough at the time to challenge for Celtics 1st team (because at that time he wasnt). If Celtic had a colt team he could have went there and developed. There will be loads of players who possibly could have developed later given game time however lots get lost to the game when released.

Depriving smaller clubs of Old Firm loans is hardly backing up your position of ambitious progressive clubs in these leagues. Why do they need Old Firm loans? 

Answer me this. Player X is 17 and contracted to Rangers. He isnt challenging for 1st team and could benefit from competitive football. He can either A) Get loaned to a part time club that train a few nights a week, with limited facilites and coaches and then play with part time teammates or  Train at a top class training facility with professional coaches every day, playing alongside professional full time teammates and at the weekend play competitive football.  Where do you think he has the best chance of improving and why?

If Colt teams bring no benefit, can you explain to me why every major league in Europe allows colt teams. With the exception of England where developing youth is recognised as being an issue.

Thats twice you've said folk keep saying they don't bring players through, you appear to be the only person saying this though. 

Also, playing for The Rangers B in league 2, while that might be better than playing for Clyde, surely it would be better for that same player to be playing for say Livingston or Morton or St Mirren. 

Please tell me that you do realise that when a player gets loaned out to a part time club, they don't just sit at home all week waiting for training on a Tuesday and Thursday night. 

Colt teams benefit the individual club, nothing more. Bayern Amateurs, Hertha 2 etc have squads full of older players mixed in with younger players. 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Farcity

[Diamond Scot]

Nobody believes Rangers care about bringing about change for the good of the game. 

I dont actually care about their motives. If the Old Firm produce more and better Scottish players then it improves the Scotland team. 

I posted on the 19/20 page about fans needing to take a step back and stop blaming all the other clubs. Of course the Old Firm are selfish. So is every team. If I had shares in a club and he director made a decision that was for the greater good but damaged my club / investment then id be raging.

Its up to the SFA / SPFL to force through change.

Colt teams is a suggestion. Id actually go further as suggested in the other post but I appreciate that fans would be in uproar with my model.

[Diamond Scot]

1 minute ago, Farcity said:

Thats twice you've said folk keep saying they don't bring players through, you appear to be the only person saying this though. 

Also, playing for The Rangers B in league 2, while that might be better than playing for Clyde, surely it would be better for that same player to be playing for say Livingston or Morton or St Mirren. 

Please tell me that you do realise that when a player gets loaned out to a part time club, they don't just sit at home all week waiting for training on a Tuesday and Thursday night. 

Colt teams benefit the individual club, nothing more. Bayern Amateurs, Hertha 2 etc have squads full of older players mixed in with younger players. 

Several people have mentioned the lack of players Rangers have brought through. Thats why i responded to it.

Of course loaned players dont sit at home but surely you can see that there is less point training at Rangers during the week and then on a Saturday playing for Airdrie than there is training at Rangers all week then playing on a Saturday for rangers colts alongside all the players you have trainied with, implementing the tactics you have worked on etc.

The Old Firm having Colt teams isnt going to stop other kids playing for Livi etc. Its going to give the kids currently at the Old firm the chance to play when currently they either have to go out on loan or just play u23 football. 

Its a whole lot harder to become a regular for the Old Firm than it is for Livi etc.

Again, explain why it works for every major european league but its a bad idea for Scotland?

So all the players that cut their teeth at colt teams only benefit the club. Im sure Argentina would think that Messi has maybe benefited them just a little. He played for Barca C and B from 2003 to 2005. In the main team at Barca at that time was Ronaldinho, Kluivert, Overmars, Etoo and Larsson.  Messi at that time wouldnt have got in the team in front of any of the above. A season and a half playing colt football gave him the chance to show what he could do and the rest is history. Now maybe Messi would have been the same player if he hadnt got over 30 games under his belt but maybe he wouldnt have. 

 

[dandydunn]

1 hour ago, Diamond Scot said:

 

I dont actually care about their motives. If the Old Firm produce more and better Scottish players then it improves the Scotland team. 

 

I keep asking and you keep not answering, why would be playing for rangers colts against league 2 teams be beneficial to the national squad?

They have next to no players in the national squad from the first team, so if these lads are better than them, then they won’t be playing for the colts anyway, so it won’t benefit anyone. 

1 hour ago, Diamond Scot said:

 

 

Again, explain why it works for every major european league but its a bad idea for Scotland?

 

 

Because other countries probably work on a fair and rational basis. Rangers have said that they’ll start in the bottom tier of league football, if other teams want to enter, they can, but they’ll have to start at a lower level than that. 
 

You argue that it would be a good idea, because highland and lowland teams aren’t that good anyway, so it’s not a problem to swamp those leagues with colt teams. 
 

It’s absolutely farcical and very worrying that you can’t see it, as an airdrie fan, this is the kind of nonsense that could put your team out of business, but by reading between the lines, you’ll just go and watch rangers colts anyway. 

[Farcity]

1 hour ago, Diamond Scot said:

Several people have mentioned the lack of players Rangers have brought through. Thats why i responded to it.

Of course loaned players dont sit at home but surely you can see that there is less point training at Rangers during the week and then on a Saturday playing for Airdrie than there is training at Rangers all week then playing on a Saturday for rangers colts alongside all the players you have trainied with, implementing the tactics you have worked on etc.

The Old Firm having Colt teams isnt going to stop other kids playing for Livi etc. Its going to give the kids currently at the Old firm the chance to play when currently they either have to go out on loan or just play u23 football. 

Its a whole lot harder to become a regular for the Old Firm than it is for Livi etc.

Again, explain why it works for every major european league but its a bad idea for Scotland?

So all the players that cut their teeth at colt teams only benefit the club. Im sure Argentina would think that Messi has maybe benefited them just a little. He played for Barca C and B from 2003 to 2005. In the main team at Barca at that time was Ronaldinho, Kluivert, Overmars, Etoo and Larsson.  Messi at that time wouldnt have got in the team in front of any of the above. A season and a half playing colt football gave him the chance to show what he could do and the rest is history. Now maybe Messi would have been the same player if he hadnt got over 30 games under his belt but maybe he wouldnt have. 

 

Easy to cite Barcelona and Messi as the shining example, it's also very unrealistic, he wasn't made, he was born. 

Does the system work in Germany?  Does the French system utilise it? Italy?The Belgians are churning out top talent, where are their Colt teams? Croatia? Serbia? 

 

[Davieboy]

1.       The mind-blowing arrogance of Rangers, putting themselves forward as one of the 2 automatic teams to have their Colts in the bottom league.

 

2.       The comparisons to European leagues who already have Colts – several of these leagues have been dominated by a ‘big’ 2, 3 or 4 etc.  However, I don’t think their ‘big’ teams are several times larger than their nearest diddy teams like we have here is Scotland.  e.g. Spain have their Real Madrid and Barca, but they also have Athletico Madrid, Valencia and several other etc.   The advantage to the big teams of having Colts is not as large if the other clubs have them too.  What Rangers are proposing means the diddy teams can’t have Colts in the SPFL.   Don’t answer this by saying ‘well your didddy team can’t afford it, why should that stop the old firm?’   Why should the premier league clubs have to pay to do this?   If it is going to benefit the national team, would the SFA not be clamouring to pay the clubs to do it?  They won’t, because it won’t. Simples.

 

3.       My own team play in the championship; the prospect of it being watered down by having old firm Colts in there depresses me.   You want to be promoted by finishing top, not by finishing 3rd behind the old firm colts.

 

4.       What happens if the Colts draw the parent team in the cup?   Have special rules for this?  Do we really need more special rules to accommodate the OF.  We already have it e.g. bye’s in early round of League Cup, ‘free’ week to go off on a jolly to play glamour friendlies, etc.

 

5.       In my opinion, the number 1 problem in Scotland is the utter dominance by the OF.   They maintain the status quo by manipulating bigots and the media and by stifling any real challenge from other teams.  The medium to long term effect of this plan will be to strengthen the OF and widen the imbalance in the game.   The short term financial benefit to the lower league is pennies to the OF.

 

6.       This imbalance would be worsened by reducing the likelihood of people going to support their local (small) club.   There are already too many OF ‘fans’ across the country, most of whom never set foot in parkhead or ibrox.   Say you have a guy who is a ‘fan’ of rangers or celtic but also goes to see his local (wee) team on occasion.  What does he do when the colts come along?   I suspect he will become a big fan of the colts, and lose interest in his ‘wee’ team.   There is very little chance of wee teams growing their support as the ‘floating’ OF fans will all be lost to them.

 

7.       If Rangers want to help the lower league clubs, why not just give them the money, without the Colt thing?   It’s because it isn’t about helping the lower league clubs; it is a financial investment that they hope will reap good returns in the future.    The timing is so cynical too.  Sure, the game doesn’t feel great at the moment (in large part that is due to Ranger’s ‘operation chaos’, which has been in full flow since mid-March in an attempt to get the null and void result), but this plan is nothing more than a bribe to clubs in desperate financial difficulty.   The time to restructure is after a decent length of discussion and planning, not in the immediate aftermath of a whirlwind.

[Jim Beem]

Get this shite away to fuck. Condescending pricks. 

Not much else to say on the matter 😀

[Rolling hIlls]

2 hours ago, dandydunn said:

I keep asking and you keep not answering, why would be playing for rangers colts against league 2 teams be beneficial to the national squad?

They have next to no players in the national squad from the first team, so if these lads are better than them, then they won’t be playing for the colts anyway, so it won’t benefit anyone. 

Because other countries probably work on a fair and rational basis. Rangers have said that they’ll start in the bottom tier of league football, if other teams want to enter, they can, but they’ll have to start at a lower level than that. 
 

You argue that it would be a good idea, because highland and lowland teams aren’t that good anyway, so it’s not a problem to swamp those leagues with colt teams. 
 

It’s absolutely farcical and very worrying that you can’t see it, as an airdrie fan, this is the kind of nonsense that could put your team out of business, but by reading between the lines, you’ll just go and watch rangers colts anyway. 

Your hatred for Rangers blinds anything you say kid. Scotland Forever. 

[ParisInAKilt]

Think the main issue is how we coach or don’t coach young players. Very few of our players play at the highest level for a reason. 

[dandydunn]

25 minutes ago, Rolling hIlls said:

Your hatred for Rangers blinds anything you say kid. Scotland Forever. 

Oh do fuck off. 
 

Please. 

[vanderark14]

26 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Think the main issue is how we coach or don’t coach young players. Very few of our players play at the highest level for a reason. 

We will end up like ireland and wales, our youngsters with any talent will get snapped up at a young age by top EPL sides and we wont see much of them in scotland. 

 

[Rolling hIlls]

34 minutes ago, dandydunn said:

Oh do fuck off. 
 

Please. 

High level.

[Diamond Scot]

3 hours ago, dandydunn said:

I keep asking and you keep not answering, why would be playing for rangers colts against league 2 teams be beneficial to the national squad?

They have next to no players in the national squad from the first team, so if these lads are better than them, then they won’t be playing for the colts anyway, so it won’t benefit anyone. 

Because other countries probably work on a fair and rational basis. Rangers have said that they’ll start in the bottom tier of league football, if other teams want to enter, they can, but they’ll have to start at a lower level than that. 
 

You argue that it would be a good idea, because highland and lowland teams aren’t that good anyway, so it’s not a problem to swamp those leagues with colt teams. 
 

It’s absolutely farcical and very worrying that you can’t see it, as an airdrie fan, this is the kind of nonsense that could put your team out of business, but by reading between the lines, you’ll just go and watch rangers colts anyway. 

To answer your questions in turn.

1) because we are talking about Rangers youth players. The development of players. The pathway into the 1st team is too difficult for many players and the crucial years of development are lost. Scotlands youth teams have a large number of Rangers and Celtic players but given the relative increased quality of their 1st team squad and the neccesity to win in order to fight for the league it becomes increasingly difficult for young players to break through at that age. Keeping them in the same enviroment where their development can be tailored and controlled whilst giving them competitive football would increase the chances of he becoming better players and as a natural consequence of that benefit Scotland.

2) Its not about being better than them now. Its about being better than them in 1 or 2 years time with 50 odd games under their belt as opposed to 50 u23 games.

3) If you think other countries operate on a fair and rational basis then you know nothing about football. Just look at Spains distribution of TV rights as an example.

4)If your point is that other Prem sides should have colt teams and have the option of paying the same amount of money to start at the same level then I agree. I suspect most if not all non old firm teams dont have that money though.

5) im saying part time teams etc operate in a different footballing world to he countries top teams and I include my team in that.

6) ive never been to a Rangers game in my life and have zero love for either old firm. In fact i despise much of what they are and do. However that doesnt blind me that all old firm is bad and all non old firm is good.

[Rolling hIlls]

Morning folks.  Great article by Jackson in Daily Record.  This could be a chance for change in Scottish Football.  Totally agree with Rangers proposal.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-reconstruction-blueprint-radical-looks-22153526?fbclid=IwAR17d1-V0W8C-NjdX8b8c-bAPhITRPk7Y0U3RY03tevgLkEhkpmK2vTxpeQ

[kumnio]

If Rangers cared about bringing through kids, they had 4 seasons to give them a chance in the lower leagues, how many of the young players at that time got a chance, how many have had decent careers, or progressed to Scotland level?

14-14-18 is a stupid setup IMO, and the bribes that the OF have put in place shouldnt be enough for clubs to vote for this idea.

Im not against the idea in principle, but this format just looks like nonsense to me. Its a keep most people happy, lets save Hearts & Patrick, while having a scramble for the wee teams. 

[Rolling hIlls]

2 minutes ago, kumnio said:

If Rangers cared about bringing through kids, they had 4 seasons to give them a chance in the lower leagues, how many of the young players at that time got a chance, how many have had decent careers, or progressed to Scotland level?

14-14-18 is a stupid setup IMO, and the bribes that the OF have put in place shouldnt be enough for clubs to vote for this idea.

Im not against the idea in principle, but this format just looks like nonsense to me. Its a keep most people happy, lets save Hearts & Patrick, while having a scramble for the wee teams. 

Bribes?  Your post there is hypocritical.  You are saying the OF are bribing clubs but agree in principle.  Then this format looks nonsense to you.  Jeez.  Never seen so many contradictions in a short wee post.  So do you agree or disagree?

[Fairbairn]

6 minutes ago, kumnio said:

If Rangers cared about bringing through kids, they had 4 seasons to give them a chance in the lower leagues, how many of the young players at that time got a chance, how many have had decent careers, or progressed to Scotland level?

14-14-18 is a stupid setup IMO, and the bribes that the OF have put in place shouldnt be enough for clubs to vote for this idea.

Im not against the idea in principle, but this format just looks like nonsense to me. Its a keep most people happy, lets save Hearts & Patrick, while having a scramble for the wee teams. 

To be fair the people in charge of Rangers now and people back when we were in the lower leagues are completely different so I don't think that's really a fair accusation to level.

[slasher]

I can see some merit in the proposal but if it fails because there isn't enough in it for the majority of clubs then fair enough. They should spend time building a consensus thereafter for change that can be agreed upon. It would make a pleasant change from all the bickering. 

[Tartan_McCole]

1 hour ago, Rolling hIlls said:

Morning folks.  Great article by Jackson in Daily Record.  This could be a chance for change in Scottish Football.  Totally agree with Rangers proposal.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-reconstruction-blueprint-radical-looks-22153526?fbclid=IwAR17d1-V0W8C-NjdX8b8c-bAPhITRPk7Y0U3RY03tevgLkEhkpmK2vTxpeQ

I get the impression that Rangers could propose Scotland getting launched into the Sun and you'd think it was a good idea, providing you read it in the Record or Sun anyway.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Tartan_McCole