Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Mox

Who invented football, Scotland or England?

Recommended Posts

Just now, Bzzzz said:

Apologies, my comment was not clear, I was referring to our games v England. 

Nae danger. :ok:

It's quite embarrassing that the SFA steadfastly refused to play any matches outside of the so called "British Isles" until 1929. By contrast England were playing European teams on the continent as early as 1908.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

Nae danger. :ok:

It's quite embarrassing that the SFA steadfastly refused to play any matches outside of the so called "British Isles" until 1929. By contrast England were playing European teams on the continent as early as 1908.

I can speculate, but is there any evidence as to why that was?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Grim Jim said:

I can speculate, but is there any evidence as to why that was?

Probably a combination of penny pinching and maybe also a dismissive attitude towards other "non British" nations.

Scottish club teams often went abroad for pre-seasons even before WW1. So there was no excuse for the SFA.

The SFA fucked up the 1931 tour of Europe too. They selected (there was no manager then) an inexperienced team of players and grossly underestimated Austria and Italy's ability. Austria spanked us 5-0, Italy beat us 3-0 and we narrowly beat Switzerland 3-2 to salvage a bit of pride. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

The SFA fucked up the 1931 tour of Europe too. They selected (there was no manager then) an inexperienced team of players and grossly underestimated Austria and Italy's ability. Austria spanked us 5-0, Italy beat us 3-0 and we narrowly beat Switzerland 3-2 to salvage a bit of pride. 

You've jogged my memory with that bit.   There were selection problems too.   1931-33 the FA allowed their clubs not to release non-English players for internationals.

(Speculation, but) wouldn't surprise me if there were problems with home clubs too.   Certainly read about that in later years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Grim Jim said:

You've jogged my memory with that bit.   There were selection problems too.   1931-33 the FA allowed their clubs not to release non-English players for internationals.

(Speculation, but) wouldn't surprise me if there were problems with home clubs too.   Certainly read about that in later years.

Another thing that many people don't want to admit shamefully happened was that up until the c1939 some SFA selectors didn't want more than two or three Catholics in the XI. Some didn't want any at all. That's the real reason why talented players like Jimmy McGrory only got a handful of caps. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thoroughly interesting conversation. The word 'invented' is the key one. No one can claim invention of football, but you can ask the question of which style of play do we watch today?

The Scotch Professors are the innovators of the passing and running game that we know today. If it been left up to England, we would today still have scrimmages and be playing a 1-1-8 system. Just like they did when England turned up in Glasgow on St Andrew's Day in 1872. Scotland on the other hand had been playing the passing and running game for centuries.

England had five attempts at creating international football, and failed. David Wotherspoon and Robert Gardner, of the mighty Queens Park, had one go, and they created the World's 1st Football International at Hamilton Crescent. Scotland played their 'box defence system of 2-2-6. The English were horrified when the Scots passed around them rather than dribbling until they were kicked off the ball. The English also considered practice as cheating and passing as cowardice.

Recently I managed to get the Scotland 1870s-1880s into the search for the Greatest International Team of all time. They came 3rd out of a 32 team knockout competition. Check out the twitter thread here:

https://twitter.com/TFHBs/status/1254464672968966150?s=19

The Hampden Collection mission is to get the #ScotchProfessors the recognition they deserve as the founders of world football. Without them you would have a game more like rugby.

Find out more here

www.hampdencollection.com 

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, ErsatzThistle said:

Another thing that many people don't want to admit shamefully happened was that up until the c1939 some SFA selectors didn't want more than two or three Catholics in the XI. Some didn't want any at all. That's the real reason why talented players like Jimmy McGrory only got a handful of caps. 

Any evidence of this?

 

My take on it is that McGrory played in an era at the same time as the likes of Gallacher and James, both winning titles and being superstars down South...which would surely have made it difficult for anyone else looking for caps

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

Any evidence of this?

 

My take on it is that McGrory played in an era at the same time as the likes of Gallacher and James, both winning titles and being superstars down South...which would surely have made it difficult for anyone else looking for caps

The late Bob Crampsey wrote about it in newspaper articles and spoke about it on the radio. That's good enough for me. Just take a look at what Scottish society was like in the first half of the 20th Century, this kind of nonsense was commonplace. Excuses shouldn't be made for the SFA indulging in it.

Alex James didn't keep McGrory out the team, indeed he only got a handful of caps himself.

There were games where Gallacher wasn't available and other inferior forwards were chosen. McGrory's record was phenomenal and he should have won more caps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fergus Suter was never capped by Scotland in spite of probably being one of the top players of the late 1800s...I am guesing from his name that he had connections to Irish Catholicism but he was also, of course, a controversial figure in terms of his professionalism. So I'd be intrigued to know what stopped him playing for Scotland - class, religion or professional status?

Another intriguing character was Andrew Watson, the first ever black international. He was very probably amateur - he didn't need to be paid to play as he came from a very wealthy background. He was unlikely to have been Catholic, & was described somewhere or other as one of the best players of the day. He was capped three times, all in the same season, so again it begs the question why so few caps for an obviously skilful player?

I don't know how big a deal prejudice &/or sectarianism might have been at different points in history & how far it might have affected selections, but I suppose I lean towards thinking it's probably unlikely that it played no role at all.

Edited by Huddersfield

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Huddersfield said:

Fergus Suter was never capped by Scotland in spite of probably being one of the top players of the late 1800s...I am guesing from his name that he had connections to Irish Catholicism but he was also, of course, a controversial figure in terms of his professionalism. So I'd be intrigued to know what stopped him playing for Scotland - class, religion or professional status?

Another intriguing character was Andrew Watson, the first ever black international. He was very probably amateur - he didn't need to be paid to play as he came from a very wealthy background. He was unlikely to have been Catholic, & was described somewhere or other as one of the best players of the day. He was capped three times, all in the same season, so again it begs the question why so few caps for an obviously skilful player?

I don't know how big a deal prejudice &/or sectarianism might have been at different points in history & how far it might have affected selections, but I suppose I lean towards thinking it's probably unlikely that it played no role at all.

If I recall, Watson moved to London (later Liverpool where he became a marine engineer), and Scottish selectors only picked players playing in Scotland at that time.

I don't know if that was the same for Suter.   Edit to say, it would have been the case during his time in Blackburn.   Dunno about earlier.

Edited by Grim Jim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Checkout a book.  The Fabulous Baker boys.  Joe Baker played with Armadale Thistle before Hibs..  But he was born in England so could only play for England.  His brother Gerry was born in USA so only played for them.  Great story in the book is when he went down for the 1966 training camp.  Jumped in to a taxi with a rough Scottish accent and asked the driver to take him there.  The taxi driver phoned the police.  He never made the cut for the finals as his rival was Jimmy Greaves for the number 9 shirt.   He went to Torino with Denis Law.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gerry Baker scored for St Mirren in the 1959 Scottish cup final win against Aberdeen in front of over 108,000 at Hampden.

Also scored 10 goals in one game the following season in the 3rd round.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Grim Jim said:

If I recall, Watson moved to London (later Liverpool where he became a marine engineer), and Scottish selectors only picked players playing in Scotland at that time.

I don't know if that was the same for Suter.   Edit to say, it would have been the case during his time in Blackburn.   Dunno about earlier.

After three caps Watson moved to London in 1882 which did indeed make him ineligible for Scotland.

Initially he spent a couple of years with a side called Swifts before signing for Corinthians.

His colour does not particularly seem to have inhibited his career at any time and many match reports make no mention of this, focussing on his ability.

He was actually born in the colonies and I  think his Scottish father was involved in the slave trade which would explain why he was there though this needs confirming.

Edited by Catchart Circle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Catchart Circle said:

After three caps Watson moved to London in 1882 which did indeed make him ineligible for Scotland.

Initially he spent a couple of years with a side called Swifts before signing for Corinthians.

His colour does not particularly seem to have inhibited his career at any time and many match reports make no mention of this, focussing on his ability.

He was actually born in the colonies and I  think his Scottish father was involved in the slave trade which would explain why he was there though this needs confirming.

If I can be pedantic...   His father, born Kirkwall 1805 was certainly a 'sugar planter' around 1850, but the slave trade ended in British Guiana 22 years before Andrew Watson was born in 1856.   Andrew's mother was probably the daughter of former slaves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Jersey Jim said:

Gerry Baker scored for St Mirren in the 1959 Scottish cup final win against Aberdeen in front of over 108,000 at Hampden.

Also scored 10 goals in one game the following season in the 3rd round.

Aye.  That's correct Jim  I think they also played against each other when Joe was at Hibs.  Not read the book for a couple years but sure they did.  But it is a good read.  Can you name another centre forward that played with Armadale and went to Hibs.  Then broke the transfer record in Scotland.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/2/2020 at 1:10 AM, ErsatzThistle said:

The late Bob Crampsey wrote about it in newspaper articles and spoke about it on the radio. That's good enough for me. Just take a look at what Scottish society was like in the first half of the 20th Century, this kind of nonsense was commonplace. Excuses shouldn't be made for the SFA indulging in it.

Alex James didn't keep McGrory out the team, indeed he only got a handful of caps himself.

There were games where Gallacher wasn't available and other inferior forwards were chosen. McGrory's record was phenomenal and he should have won more caps.

Of course there was a sectarian side Erzatz.  The Celtic guys that I knew (older ones) refused to go to Scotland games when they were young because there seemed to be an anti Celtic bias.  So agree with you there.  Changed days now though.  But it wasn't just football. Just thinking about Slasher.  When I started at Ravenscraig I was told about the steelworks and engineering firms around.  If you were catholic you had no chance of a job.  And if you were protestant you had no chance in another firm.  Whether that is strictly true I don't know but I can believe it in the early part of the century.  Slasher is more informed than me so maybe he could agree/disagree Jim.  But I agree with your point about Scotland.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/31/2020 at 12:31 AM, Grim Jim said:

I think, by the time the FA started, it was all by foot, but tended to be a 1-0-9 formation with 8 players shielding(?) one dribbler.   I have in my mind a rugby maul, but with the ball at feet.

I enjoyed 'The English Game' too.   From what I've read It was not too far off the mark.

Hmm... there were a few inaccuracies but it was v enjoyable. 

Arthur Kinnaird, the beardy lah dee dah in the series actually played for Scotland in the game at the Oval in 1873.... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bzzzz said:

Hmm... there were a few inaccuracies but it was v enjoyable. 

Arthur Kinnaird, the beardy lah dee dah in the series actually played for Scotland in the game at the Oval in 1873.... 

I didn't know he played for us!   Born in England to a Scottish father.   His mother was an English Hoare (sic).

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/5/2020 at 12:45 PM, fringo said:

Great thread BTW with some very interesting stuff. 👍

Plenty more where that came fae fella! 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Toepoke said:

No doubt about that.

He did give birth to the Hampden Roar though...

https://scottishfootballhalloffame.co.uk/jimmy-mcgrory-1904-1982/

 

Good piece Toepoke.  Got another one.  Gallant Alan Morton.  5 feet 4.  Played with the Wembley Wizards in 1928.  I wasn't there.  Had a hamstring!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Morton

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Toepoke said:

No doubt about that.

He did give birth to the Hampden Roar though...

https://scottishfootballhalloffame.co.uk/jimmy-mcgrory-1904-1982/

 

I wonder whether certain bigoted selection committee members were celebrating though ?

There is a counter claim however that it was actually Alex Cheyne who was the one responsible for the "Hampden Roar".

My Grandad actually once briefly  met McGrory in a Largs ice cream shop during the 1950s. McGrory was there with his family and signed a few autographs, he was a very shy, softly spoken man.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, ErsatzThistle said:

I wonder whether certain bigoted selection committee members were celebrating though ?

The short sighted and frankly amateur way the SFA was run back then probably held Scotland back from being a global success.  Unfortunately by the time they got a bit more professional organisationally, we no longer had the players to achieve it.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  



×
×
  • Create New...