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Mox

Who invented football, Scotland or England?

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1 hour ago, Toepoke said:

Fantastic player, really should have gone to play in Serie A when he had the chance. He must regret that now.

 

Only he will know. But he was a celtic guy. I, with my scotland hat on at that wish he would have went abroad as well. Like Lambert did just to improve his overall game. Might have made mcstay even better. It certainly improved Lambert. Hindsight!! Still was a wonderful player though.

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How refreshing that this thread has not descended to the level of `it's oor game and no' their's!' - well at least not yet!

I always refer to the respected Bob Crampseys research in `The First 100 Years of the Scottish Football League.'

Quoting Crampsey -` Although association football developed almost simultaneously in Scotland and England there was a difference in ethos and approach almost from the outset......

.......It was not surprising that England, whence the initial impetus had come, continued to lead the way in the organisation of the game ..... .. in the formation of a national association and a football league, in the creation of a cup competition and, perhaps oddly, in the adoption of professionalism, England would lead and Scotland fall shortly behind in each case.

Another Scot, journalist John Rafferty, says in `One Hundred Years of Scottish Football,' 

`The Football Association had been formed in London in 1863 and their rules had inspired some young men in Glasgow to form Queens Park in 1867. The FA Cup was instituted in 1871 to inspire the start of the Scottish Cup two years later. The game in its present form came from England. Even in Scotland this has to be admitted.'

So while the game may have been played first up here - in a crude form which allowed handling of the ball - the organised sport as we know it today had its rules drawn up in the south.

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1 hour ago, Catchart Circle said:

How refreshing that this thread has not descended to the level of `it's oor game and no' their's!' - well at least not yet!

I always refer to the respected Bob Crampseys research in `The First 100 Years of the Scottish Football League.'

Quoting Crampsey -` Although association football developed almost simultaneously in Scotland and England there was a difference in ethos and approach almost from the outset......

.......It was not surprising that England, whence the initial impetus had come, continued to lead the way in the organisation of the game ..... .. in the formation of a national association and a football league, in the creation of a cup competition and, perhaps oddly, in the adoption of professionalism, England would lead and Scotland fall shortly behind in each case.

Another Scot, journalist John Rafferty, says in `One Hundred Years of Scottish Football,' 

`The Football Association had been formed in London in 1863 and their rules had inspired some young men in Glasgow to form Queens Park in 1867. The FA Cup was instituted in 1871 to inspire the start of the Scottish Cup two years later. The game in its present form came from England. Even in Scotland this has to be admitted.'

So while the game may have been played first up here - in a crude form which allowed handling of the ball - the organised sport as we know it today had its rules drawn up in the south.

Boring!!! I will descend this thread if I want!! That is it already descended! 

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On 5/29/2020 at 9:29 PM, Mox said:

I found out today for example that the Scottish guy who founded Sevilla is buried in Cathcart Cemetery which is 10 mins from me. 

This now makes a lot more sense. I was at the Razor years ago watching Deportivo, and someone mentoned the Sevilla / Glasgow connection. My Spanish was so bad that it never registered.  Thanks!

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5 hours ago, Catchart Circle said:

in a crude form which allowed handling of the ball

I thought it was us who ditched any handing of the ball and introduced the passing game (by foot).

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1 hour ago, Rich NATA said:

I thought it was us who ditched any handing of the ball and introduced the passing game (by foot).

I think, by the time the FA started, it was all by foot, but tended to be a 1-0-9 formation with 8 players shielding(?) one dribbler.   I have in my mind a rugby maul, but with the ball at feet.

I enjoyed 'The English Game' too.   From what I've read It was not too far off the mark.

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7 hours ago, Grim Jim said:

I think, by the time the FA started, it was all by foot, but tended to be a 1-0-9 formation with 8 players shielding(?) one dribbler.   I have in my mind a rugby maul, but with the ball at feet.

I enjoyed 'The English Game' too.   From what I've read It was not too far off the mark.

For the pedants amongst us (I know, I know) there were some inaccuracies. There were two Blackburn teams at the time, Olympic & Rovers, not just a single Blackburn team. Suter actually signed for Rovers, but it was Olympic who were the first non-public school team to win the FA Cup, so he didn't play in that final. Also for the extreme pedants, the famous 5-5 draw (Old Etonians v Darwen) shown at the beginning actually went to a second replay, which meant three trips to London for the Darwen players (there was a rule I think that from the quarter-final onwards all games had to be played in London) & that may have had some bearing over time on the attitudes of Northern & Midlands teams as to how the sport was being organised.

His move from Darwen to Rovers didn't go down well though & I think there's truth, as shown in the programme, that some of the first instances of football hooliganism were between their fans after he moved, & trouble continued on & off for the remainder of Darwen's league existence.

Moving on a bit in history, I read a brilliant book a little while ago; 'Erbstein: football's forgotten pioneer', which is about Erno Erbstein. His great influence was Herbert Chapman, & going back to your 1-0-9 formation, Chapman is quoted as having said "A team can attack too much." One of his many great innovations was to create the idea of players whose primary job was to defend. Erbstein (a Jew who somehow managed to dodge the concentration camps only to die in the Superga plane crash) took those ideas, both to Hungary (his birthplace) & Italy (where he mostly worked). It's no coincidence that those two countries, Italy especially, became amongst the early international powerhouses. I'd say it's at this point that the development of the game left both our countries!

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7 hours ago, Grim Jim said:

I think, by the time the FA started, it was all by foot, but tended to be a 1-0-9 formation with 8 players shielding(?) one dribbler.   I have in my mind a rugby maul, but with the ball at feet.

I enjoyed 'The English Game' too.   From what I've read It was not too far off the mark.

Just as an aside, & I thought about this as I was writing, I wonder if the London rule had some bearing on the creation of separate Scottish competitions? Obviously, in the early days the FA Cup was a British competition, albeit very few Scottish teams ever entered (Queen's Park & a team called Clydesdale are the only ones I can think of without Wikipedia). The football league when created was pretty much a league for Lancashire & the W Midlands. Were the drivers for Scottish competitions about nationality or just practicalities?

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59 minutes ago, Huddersfield said:

For the pedants amongst us (I know, I know) there were some inaccuracies. There were two Blackburn teams at the time, Olympic & Rovers, not just a single Blackburn team. Suter actually signed for Rovers, but it was Olympic who were the first non-public school team to win the FA Cup, so he didn't play in that final. Also for the extreme pedants, the famous 5-5 draw (Old Etonians v Darwen) shown at the beginning actually went to a second replay, which meant three trips to London for the Darwen players (there was a rule I think that from the quarter-final onwards all games had to be played in London) & that may have had some bearing over time on the attitudes of Northern & Midlands teams as to how the sport was being organised.

His move from Darwen to Rovers didn't go down well though & I think there's truth, as shown in the programme, that some of the first instances of football hooliganism were between their fans after he moved, & trouble continued on & off for the remainder of Darwen's league existence.

Moving on a bit in history, I read a brilliant book a little while ago; 'Erbstein: football's forgotten pioneer', which is about Erno Erbstein. His great influence was Herbert Chapman, & going back to your 1-0-9 formation, Chapman is quoted as having said "A team can attack too much." One of his many great innovations was to create the idea of players whose primary job was to defend. Erbstein (a Jew who somehow managed to dodge the concentration camps only to die in the Superga plane crash) took those ideas, both to Hungary (his birthplace) & Italy (where he mostly worked). It's no coincidence that those two countries, Italy especially, became amongst the early international powerhouses. I'd say it's at this point that the development of the game left both our countries!

Superb!  

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1 hour ago, Huddersfield said:

Just as an aside, & I thought about this as I was writing, I wonder if the London rule had some bearing on the creation of separate Scottish competitions? Obviously, in the early days the FA Cup was a British competition, albeit very few Scottish teams ever entered (Queen's Park & a team called Clydesdale are the only ones I can think of without Wikipedia). The football league when created was pretty much a league for Lancashire & the W Midlands. Were the drivers for Scottish competitions about nationality or just practicalities?

QP seemed to get a lot of byes.   Then when they didn't they often did not travel, giving the other side a walkover.   Cost or distance may have been to much, and there was soon plenty competition for QP here (particularly from the Dumbarton* area for some reason).

Never read anything about it being nationalistic or not, but it didn't take long for internationals to start up did it?

 

* (Dumbarton themselves drew the first Scottish League with upstarts Rangers, which the latter include in their "54" titles   ...without an asterisk :whistling: )

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10 hours ago, Rich NATA said:

I thought it was us who ditched any handing of the ball and introduced the passing game (by foot).

Hudd's got me on pedant stuff now.   The original 1863 rules allowed a 'fair catch' from which a free kick was taken (by the catcher!)... the 'mark' in Rugby Union even today.

Rule 8 and definitions below... https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Laws_of_the_Game_(1863)

 

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8 minutes ago, Rich NATA said:

So, did football actually evolve out of rugby?

Lifted from Wiki...

Quote

At the final meeting, F. M. Campbell, the first FA treasurer and the Blackheath representative, withdrew his club from the FA over the removal of two draft rules at the previous meeting, the first which allowed for the running with the ball in hand and the second, obstructing such a run by hacking (kicking an opponent in the shins), tripping and holding. Other English rugby clubs followed this lead and did not join the FA but instead in 1871 formed the Rugby Football Union.[3] The term "soccer" dates back to this split to refer to football played under the "association" rules. After six clubs had withdrawn as they supported the opposing Rugby Rules, the Football Association had just nine members in January 1864: Barnes, Kilburn, Crystal Palace, War Office (Civil Service), Forest Club, Forest School, Sheffield, Uppingham and Royal Engineers (Chatham).

 

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The Football Act 1424 was passed by the Parliament of Scotland in the reign of James I. It became law on 26 May 1424, one of a set of statutes passed that day; it is recorded as James I. 1424 (May 26) c.18 in the Record Edition of the statutes, and James I. Parl. 1-1424 c.17 in the Duodecimo Edition. The title of the Act was "Of playing at the fut ball".

 

The Act stated that it is statut and the king forbiddis that na man play at the fut ball under the payne of iiij d[1] - in other words, playing football was forbidden by the King, and punishable by a fine of four pence.

 

The Act remained in force for several centuries, although somewhat unsurprisingly, it fell into disuse. It was finally repealed by the Statute Law Revision (Scotland) Act 1906.

 

Three further 15th century Acts (in 1457, 1470 and 1490) explicitly prohibit both football and golf (see Golf in Scotland) during wappenschaws (English: musterings) for archery practice.[2][3]

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1 hour ago, saintsparky said:

The Football Act 1424 was passed by the Parliament of Scotland in the reign of James I. It became law on 26 May 1424, one of a set of statutes passed that day; it is recorded as James I. 1424 (May 26) c.18 in the Record Edition of the statutes, and James I. Parl. 1-1424 c.17 in the Duodecimo Edition. The title of the Act was "Of playing at the fut ball".

 

The Act stated that it is statut and the king forbiddis that na man play at the fut ball under the payne of iiij d[1] - in other words, playing football was forbidden by the King, and punishable by a fine of four pence.

 

The Act remained in force for several centuries, although somewhat unsurprisingly, it fell into disuse. It was finally repealed by the Statute Law Revision (Scotland) Act 1906.

 

Three further 15th century Acts (in 1457, 1470 and 1490) explicitly prohibit both football and golf (see Golf in Scotland) during wappenschaws (English: musterings) for archery practice.[2][3]

So the reason we kept getting our arse kicked by English bowmen was because we were too busy being good at football to be interested in producing archers of our own. So we were the best in the world at football but then the government banned it. Fucks sake. Must’ve been Tory bastards. Could we not just have convinced the English that battles were to be fought on the football pitch?

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2 hours ago, Rich NATA said:

So, did football actually evolve out of rugby?

Think so, least after watching the Caldwell brothers trying to defend John Carew in Oslo 2009 

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3 hours ago, saintsparky said:

The Football Act 1424 was passed by the Parliament of Scotland in the reign of James I. It became law on 26 May 1424, one of a set of statutes passed that day; it is recorded as James I. 1424 (May 26) c.18 in the Record Edition of the statutes, and James I. Parl. 1-1424 c.17 in the Duodecimo Edition. The title of the Act was "Of playing at the fut ball".

 

The Act stated that it is statut and the king forbiddis that na man play at the fut ball under the payne of iiij d[1] - in other words, playing football was forbidden by the King, and punishable by a fine of four pence.

 

The Act remained in force for several centuries, although somewhat unsurprisingly, it fell into disuse. It was finally repealed by the Statute Law Revision (Scotland) Act 1906.

 

Three further 15th century Acts (in 1457, 1470 and 1490) explicitly prohibit both football and golf (see Golf in Scotland) during wappenschaws (English: musterings) for archery practice.[2][3]

The word "wapenshaw" is still used to this day in bowling. It's a form of roll up, where a load of folk turn up at a specific time and get split up into different teams to play however many matches the numbers will allow. 

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8 hours ago, duncan II said:

So the reason we kept getting our arse kicked by English bowmen was because we were too busy being good at football to be interested in producing archers of our own. So we were the best in the world at football but then the government banned it. Fucks sake. Must’ve been Tory bastards. Could we not just have convinced the English that battles were to be fought on the football pitch?

And now we're crap at football but still not world archery champions. 😄

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9 hours ago, Orraloon said:

The word "wapenshaw" is still used to this day in bowling. It's a form of roll up, where a load of folk turn up at a specific time and get split up into different teams to play however many matches the numbers will allow. 

So nothing at all to do with wulliewavin then?

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1 hour ago, fringo said:

And now we're crap at football but still not world archery champions. 😄

Might just have moved on though.   Am sure we had some crack shots with rifles in the 20th century olympics.   Jackie Stewart was deadly vs clay pigeons too.

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On 5/28/2020 at 9:17 AM, Mox said:

I was recently reading a book by Jonathan Wilson in which he mentioned that although the game its self was probably started in England, the game as we know it today was invented up here i.e the invention of the passing game as opposed to the primitive game the English were playing.

Having read a wee bit further there does seem to be some debate as to the exact origins and seems to be a school of thought that the game started up here, anyone got anything that could shed any further light?

In addition, I read a book about Seville and Real Betis recently and the number of Scottish folk that started and were involved in setting up a number of Spanish clubs is phenomenal, why don't we make more of that? Or do we and have I missed it?

The modern game was developed in Scotland yes, have a look into the Scotch Professors... we also took the modern game all over the world, Brazil, Argentina, Spain, Uruguay and of course England... we used to pump them regularly in the first internationals and they got fed up with it as our style was hammering them, so they took on our pass and move tactics and dumped their kick and rush. 

Have a wee look at this site... 

https://hampdencollection.com/the-hampden-collection-team/ 

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2 minutes ago, Bzzzz said:

The modern game was developed in Scotland yes, have a look into the Scotch Professors... we also took the modern game all over the world, Brazil, Argentina, Spain, Uruguay and of course England... we used to pump them regularly in the first internationals and they got fed up with it as our style was hammering them, so they took on our pass and move tactics and dumped their kick and rush. 

Have a wee look at this site... 

https://hampdencollection.com/the-hampden-collection-team/ 

Sorry to say but we've never beaten Brazil (who we first played in 1966) in any of our ten games against them. Drawn two, lost eight.

Played Argentina for the first time in 1977. One victory (in 1990), two losses and one draw.

Played Spain for the first time in 1957. Three wins, six losses and four draws.

Played Uruguay for the first time in 1954. One win (in 1983), two losses and one draw.

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11 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

Sorry to say but we've never beaten Brazil (who we first played in 1966) in any of our ten games against them. Drawn two, lost eight.

Played Argentina for the first time in 1977. One victory (in 1990), two losses and one draw.

Played Spain for the first time in 1957. Three wins, six losses and four draws.

Played Uruguay for the first time in 1954. One win (in 1983), two losses and one draw.

Apologies, my comment was not clear, I was referring to our games v England. 

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