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8 hours ago, thplinth said:

I think this is a very fair summation of where we stand right now.

https://dailyreckoning.com/vaccine-voodoo/

Mate, I can't figure out whether you are serious. That article is riddled with lies and half truths. It's the perfect example of fake news.

Phart already posted a link to a thread, explaining the difference between prevention and spread, which contradicts the guys fourth sentence. 

As to vitamin D (and the rest) being an effective treatment, which is being suppressed by the medical community. Wholly mother of fuck. He thinks that doctors are suppressing effective treatments for Covid, and choosing instead to watch people die...for what reason? For money. Fuck off, what an evil cunt. 

And the thing is, it makes it even more difficult to have genuine debates about what to do with the facts/reaserch e.g. there is an argument to be had about vaccination of children and young people (that isn't answered by facts alone). There is also a lot of arguing to be done about vaccine passports and other restrictive measures and the discrimantory treatment of un-vaccinated persons.

However, posting lies just makes it harder to critique government policy and be taken seriously. I think folk just do because it's easier. They don't actually want to change anything, they just want attention

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I don't really have a view on Ivermectin (other than it has been politicized like HCQ before it) but I do find this very disturbing... google especially has shown themselves up to be a colossal piece of shit as a company.

 

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11 hours ago, davierobbsagod said:

 

 

9 hours ago, Morrisandmoo said:

 

One of the more glaring aspects of the covid discussions is the endless use of ad hominem arguments by those arguing for the vaccine 'orthodoxy' shall we say.

"Ad hominem (Latin for 'to the person'), short for argumentum ad hominem, refers to several types of arguments, some but not all of which are fallacious. Typically this term refers to a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself. The most common form of ad hominem is "A makes a claim x, B asserts that A holds a property that is unwelcome, and hence B concludes that argument x is wrong"."

It is very obvious even on this thread, especially on this thread.

You know maybe every now and then (but rarely) an ad hominem argument might be relevant but when you do it every damn time just about (only refraining when it is patently absurd to do so but often not even then) then it is clearly and unambiguously sophistry.

Ad hominem.

Ad hominem.

Ad hominem.

Ad hominem.

Ad hominem.

Argument.

Ad hominem.

Ad hominem...

You see the problem here. 

It is difficult to wade through all the sophist shite to get to the one serious argument. You lose credibility doing this IMHO and it reveals a lack of intellectual integrity and honesty.

As chaff said on here recently he is too old now to be arguing with folk on the internet. I feel the seem way. I can't be arsed with it. Especially on this thread.

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That guy isn't a doctor he is climate change denialist Malcolm Roberts. He's a mining engineer. However these tweeter and grifters know their audience so just pop any old thing in there knowing it will be shared along.

There's an inherent dishonesty to all this using miners and economists to comment on esoteric immunological/pathology material. If you start vomiting blood do you go "down pit" or the institute of economic affairs, or do you got to the hospital?

When your life is on the line you go to the hospital when it's millions of folk you don;t know then suddenly a precious metal specialist who happens to be saying what you're thinking is good enough.

Anyway Scotland hopefully peaking out at the moment. Hospitals still pretty high but about a quarter of what they would have been pre vaccine.

Folk should read the Glenn Greenwald article though I read it last week, we shouldn't let the fringes on either side dominate the debate.

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6 hours ago, thplinth said:

I don't really have a view on Ivermectin (other than it has been politicized like HCQ before it) but I do find this very disturbing... google especially has shown themselves up to be a colossal piece of shit as a company.

 

He's quite right about this - Invermectin has demonstrated a 5,000-fold reduction in SARS-CoV-2 and yet is suppressed by the likes of Google and Facebook.

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3 hours ago, phart said:

That guy isn't a doctor he is climate change denialist Malcolm Roberts. He's a mining engineer. However these tweeter and grifters know their audience so just pop any old thing in there knowing it will be shared along.

There's an inherent dishonesty to all this using miners and economists to comment on esoteric immunological/pathology material. If you start vomiting blood do you go "down pit" or the institute of economic affairs, or do you got to the hospital?

When your life is on the line you go to the hospital when it's millions of folk you don;t know then suddenly a precious metal specialist who happens to be saying what you're thinking is good enough.

Anyway Scotland hopefully peaking out at the moment. Hospitals still pretty high but about a quarter of what they would have been pre vaccine.

Folk should read the Glenn Greenwald article though I read it last week, we shouldn't let the fringes on either side dominate the debate.

The irony when the post above you relates to the use of ad hominem smears to close down debate.

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1 hour ago, Hercules Rockefeller said:

The irony when the post above you relates to the use of ad hominem smears to close down debate.

It's not a smear though. He doesn't believe in climate change.

 

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1 hour ago, Hercules Rockefeller said:

The irony when the post above you relates to the use of ad hominem smears to close down debate.

What debate, the debate about the effectiveness of ivermectin in clinical situations with regards to treating Covid-19? On the TAMB, who here is qualified to debate that? It's ridiculous over-estimate of ones ability if they think they can have a robust debate on that.

Yeah let's get a youtube video from a miner and add in few anonymous folk from the TAMB and have a debate. Better hurry before google closes it down though.

It's beyond parody.

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10 minutes ago, phart said:

What debate, the debate about the effectiveness of ivermectin in clinical situations with regards to treating Covid-19? On the TAMB, who here is qualified to debate that? It's ridiculous over-estimate of ones ability if they think they can have a robust debate on that.

Yeah let's get a youtube video from a miner and add in few anonymous folk from the TAMB and have a debate. Better hurry before google closes it down though.

It's beyond parody.

Not qualified to recommend either way, but certainly the evidence points to Ivermectin being an effective treatment for the virus.

On the contrary, it's beyond parody how social media companies and search engines have taken steps to censor rational debate and many just accept it. All this does is play into the hands of loonies who think covid is either a hoax or a plan to enslave the general public.

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Far be it from me to intrude here but the post with the clip of the Australian Senator was about censorship of senior political elected representatives by companies like Google. Similar to what was done to Senator Rand Paul in the US. I even said in the opening sentence "I don't really have a view on Ivermectin (other than it has been politicized like HCQ before it)..." 😀 It is funny how people see what they want to see based on their prejudices and then invent straw arguments to argue with instead. 

HR, I would not be surprised if Ivermectin does prove to be useful. I hope it is and maybe others should too. 😷 

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Ah apologies I skimmed over that when i was dealing with the erroneous claim he was a doctor and on that basis we should listen to him about Big Pharma launching a silent coup of the australian government and killing their citizens deliberately by witholding treatment. The implication that google in conjunction with Big Pharma were killing millions world-wide by repressing this information, even though you can google or go to youtube and find hundreds of videos about the information apparently being supressed.

I let the lesser claims above blind me to the bigger issue that google took down one of his videos. mea culpa.

Edited by phart
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No worries. It is easy to confuse the person in the clip with the person tweeting the clip. It is like when someone points at something and the other person looks at the finger doing the pointing and not what is being pointed at I guess. Apology accepted. 

I also think it is lazy to assume that defending someone's right to say something freely means you necessarily agree with what they are saying, especially when you go out your way to say you don't have a view on the subject. 😀

That is the thing about free speech though, it is the things you don't agree with that put you to the test.

Anyway be good to get back to virus discussion for a bit of light relief FFS. 😀

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Free speech is the government sanctioning you for speaking not private corporations.

Although there's a host of societal problems caused by google etc that they get away with but that's another thread.

 

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On 9/7/2021 at 1:07 PM, Hercules Rockefeller said:

He's quite right about this - Invermectin has demonstrated a 5,000-fold reduction in SARS-CoV-2 and yet is suppressed by the likes of Google and Facebook.

It cannae be very well suppressed if every chicken nugget can find out about it?

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On 9/7/2021 at 8:21 AM, thplinth said:

 

One of the more glaring aspects of the covid discussions is the endless use of ad hominem arguments by those arguing for the vaccine 'orthodoxy' shall we say.

"Ad hominem (Latin for 'to the person'), short for argumentum ad hominem, refers to several types of arguments, some but not all of which are fallacious. Typically this term refers to a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself. The most common form of ad hominem is "A makes a claim x, B asserts that A holds a property that is unwelcome, and hence B concludes that argument x is wrong"."

It is very obvious even on this thread, especially on this thread.

You know maybe every now and then (but rarely) an ad hominem argument might be relevant but when you do it every damn time just about (only refraining when it is patently absurd to do so but often not even then) then it is clearly and unambiguously sophistry.

Ad hominem.

Ad hominem.

Ad hominem.

Ad hominem.

Ad hominem.

Argument.

Ad hominem.

Ad hominem...

You see the problem here. 

It is difficult to wade through all the sophist shite to get to the one serious argument. You lose credibility doing this IMHO and it reveals a lack of intellectual integrity and honesty.

As chaff said on here recently he is too old now to be arguing with folk on the internet. I feel the seem way. I can't be arsed with it. Especially on this thread.

I'm not going to have a serious debate with somebody who thinks the medical community are conspiring to kill people from Covid. I know it's not true. And I know I'll not be able to convince people who believe that it is true - that it is in fact just mice running around in their own head. 

Phart tried to give a serious intellectual response for pages and you never responded to the data and research contradicting many things that you said or promoted. 

The problem the unorthodox vaxers (as you put it) have is they post so many lies, that any valid points are drowned out. Similar to your ad-hominem problem*. Which I agree with to an extent. You don't need to be a scientist to have an opinion about the risks and benefits of covid policies. But you can have an opinion without being a lying cunt about it. 

I actually think the orthodox folk are just freaking out about the amount of lies kicking about and feverishly trying to shut the arguments down. The unorthodox anti-vaccers think they are being censored or suppressed. The truth is hardly any cunt takes the dafties seriously when it comes to their actual choices (rather than what they say on the internet) and nobody is being very effectively censored or suppressed (given the amount of shite on here). So everybody on all sides can calm doon. 

*kudos for the latin. I haven't seen this used on the internets before ;)

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On 9/7/2021 at 7:30 AM, thplinth said:

Agree with this also... it is very strange.

The Bizarre Refusal to Apply Cost-Benefit Analysis to COVID Debates

https://greenwald.substack.com/p/the-bizarre-refusal-to-apply-cost

 

Only watched 1 minute of this. I don't think it's that strange to be honest. Maybe undesirable, but not that strange. 

I think it's normal for humans to become obsessed by single issues and new risks. It'll pass and become normalised, more and more by the day, and at some point we won't talk about it so much and will take more holistic decisions around how we manage risk in society. 

Edited by Morrisandmoo
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Quite interesting this on Ivermectin. Described in this 2017 paper as a 'wonder drug'.

Very revealing seeing people calling it an anti worming drug for horses or whatever... they won a Nobel prize for it. 

Ivermectin: enigmatic multifaceted ‘wonder’ drug continues to surprise and exceed expectations

Abstract
Over the past decade, the global scientific community have begun to recognize the unmatched value of an extraordinary drug, ivermectin, that originates from a single microbe unearthed from soil in Japan. Work on ivermectin has seen its discoverer, Satoshi Ōmura, of Tokyo’s prestigious Kitasato Institute, receive the 2014 Gairdner Global Health Award and the 2015 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine, which he shared with a collaborating partner in the discovery and development of the drug, William Campbell of Merck & Co. Incorporated. Today, ivermectin is continuing to surprise and excite scientists, offering more and more promise to help improve global public health by treating a diverse range of diseases, with its unexpected potential as an antibacterial, antiviral and anti-cancer agent being particularly extraordinary.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ja201711

Edited by thplinth
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The "horse paste" folk are missing the point even more than the folk not realising its award was to treat parasites not viruses.

Although it seems it can treat a host of conditions as well. It is really being supressed. Can cure: Covid, River Blindness, Lymphatic Filariasis,leukemia, HIV,tuberculosis, denegue fever,encephalitis and cancer(breast, prostate, pancreatic, colon, gastric, lung, cervical and thyroid cancers, as well as hepatoma, glioma, melanoma, multiple myeloma and for neurofibromatosis tumors)

Not a bad wee list in that article. cites a lot of in vitro studies for things that may be associated to certain viruses, cancers etc with no actual clinical trials to treat the thing specifically. Or just says it has unexplored potential to treat which is a subset that covers every substance not clincally trialed against a condition.

Also it's hilariously disengenious to state you don't have a position on ivermectin while simulataneously only posting stuff that favours it's efficacy as a covid treatment. Well copy pasting it from various anti-vaxx social media posts.

Last year it was the same with Hydrochloroquine and when 7 independent large scale Randomised control trials and associated meta-analyses demonstrated it wasn't effective you stated you didn't believe them, yet believe instead and champion Joe Rogans interpetation of a leaky virus paper despite the author of said paper saying he has it completely wrong. All the while claiming this has been politicised. Oblivious to your own political radicalisation as the claims for both these drugs efficacy didn't come from randomised trials but from Right-wing American political circles.

On the situation above, it's not approved for use anywhere in Japan atm. Also the onchocerciasis endemic is treated by one invermectin dose a year, sometimes two in Africa. The graphs cited above don't even appear in the paper.

If you read the paper it states you have these error bars for morbidity: 926.4 ± 926.2 6473.5 ± 7090.6 and for mortality 14.4 ± 13.2 121.9 ± 161.2

The errors are the same size as or larger than the values. Imagine i said it is 250,000 miles +/- 250,0000 miles to the moon! It's a meaningless value.

Anyway that's the last time i'm going to bother getting sealioned on the subject. My own studies start again soon and time better spent preparing for them. I'm sure a scientific consensus of sorts will emerge for ivermectin we culd do with a break so here's hoping it is the miracle drug that nature paper purports it to be will save millions of lives!

 

ivermectin1.png

ivermectin2.png

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Pretty wild reports

Staff on London’s public transport network have been warned that blades are being concealed inside posters promoting conspiracy theories about Covid-19 and vaccinations.

Transport for London (TfL) said there had been a number of reports of razor blades being attached to the back of the posters intended to harm anyone taking them down, and that at least one person was harmed in an incident outside its network.

 

Trade union representatives for transport workers, who likened the tactic to that used in the past by fascists from the National Front, have raised the issue on a safety forum for staff and management and are to provide a warning to members...

...

Mick Lynch, the general secretary of the RMT union, said: “Any anti-vax conspiracy theorist resorting to this disgusting practice of lacing their propaganda with razor blades needs to know that they will face criminal prosecution and the highest possible sentences.

“As far as RMT is concerned, they should be locked up for a long time. We would expect the police and the courts to take the hardest possible line...”

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/sep/08/london-transport-staff-warned-of-razors-inside-covid-conspiracy-posters

 

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On 8/31/2021 at 1:13 PM, Morrisandmoo said:

 

 

However, it sounds like you probably have a much different attitude to risk compared to the majority. And, I suspect, the level of adaptation that the majority will be prepared to accept will never be enough for you. Therefore a source of constant and un-ending frustration (assuming we continue to live in democracy). 

This is not necessarily because the majority are any more or less selfish or informed than you are. Although I appreciate you might perceive this to be a factor. They just have different beliefs and opinions about what is right. They will be prepared to change their beliefs and opinions as much as you are i.e slowly and in small increments. 

So when I step back and someone steps forward, I step back again and they again step forward I am expecting too much and these people aren't unthinking? What about expecting people to cover their mouths when they cough, is that expecting too much too.

I gave a number of very simply mitigations that are not associated with being excessively risk averse but are obvious, sensible adaptions that most people I have encountered can't manage.

I am not expecting people to make massive adaptions all at once but people seem incapable of these basic ones hence my assessment of the human race which I would say was pretty accurate.

I totally accept there have been examples of amazing things people have done but there simply are not enough people in that category but that isn't just seen as a result of Covid. 

 

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