Coronavirus

[scottincarlisle]

Wrong thread

Edited January 4, 2021 by scottincarlisle
Wrong thread

[er yir macaroon]

6 hours ago, phart said:

Looking at a few graphs of data now that's been produced we're going to rocket passed where we were in April. This is looking grim as fuck and Tories just dithering away doing fuck all.

All the folk downplaying this and advising the Tories like the Barrington decleration folk have really used their influence negligently in way that is going to kill a lot of people. "Funny" how there is an overlap of folk who believe in population control conspiracies and also believe this is a hoax when they're engaging in encouraging behaviour that will excesively kill hundreds of thousands perhaps millions worldwide.

Fortunately this time around we do have a light at the end of the tunnel with a vaccine though, just need to lockdown hard, bite the bullet and pay everyone for 4 months , cover everything and get this under control. We can parachute payments to folk without fear of runaway inflation (See Mark Blyth Brown University economist talks about the mechanisms of this) Trident replacement will cost £250 billion over the course of it's lifetime.

Shut schools, remove summer holidays in favour of a break now. Quantatively ease with parachute payments directly to the people. Have a full shut down to break transmission as we vaccinate the nation. Then when we come out people have money businesses have money and kickstart the economy off the basis of that.

Excellent post. The UK PM had the SAGE data from 17th December that showed children are twice as likely to infect a household than adults and yet insisted disingenuously yesterday that schools are safe. He’s now just admitted they act as vectors of transmission to adults. How many people in England got infected today on the basis of that advice and his decision to keep primary schools open? A resignation issue. 

[daviebee]

5 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

Yet Celtic have travelled for a non essential journey 😂

Well it probably is essential given that their fans will likely lynch them if they turn up at Celtic Park.

[davy-hay]

Dock celtic points 

[davy-hay]

[phart]

 

[Hertsscot]

3 hours ago, Orraloon said:

Aye, plenty folk had been warning this was coming. They just didn't know when and on what scale. Lots of folk had been planning for it for at least a decade. To be fair out NHS and public health care people had been trying to plan ahead for something like this. Funding cuts ensured the plans weren't anywhere near adequate though.

I think that people did understand that something like this could happen. I remember some discussion and awareness round the 100th anniversary of the Spanish flu. Epidemics, pandemics have occurred throughout recorded history. It's just a shame our politiciana are so short term in their vision. SARS and more recently Ebola should have been wake up calls.

 

[Toepoke]

1 hour ago, Hertsscot said:

I think that people did understand that something like this could happen. I remember some discussion and awareness round the 100th anniversary of the Spanish flu. Epidemics, pandemics have occurred throughout recorded history. It's just a shame our politiciana are so short term in their vision. SARS and more recently Ebola should have been wake up calls.

 

It just goes to show if you're not directly affected by something you become complacent. In the last couple of decades we've had scares around SARS, MERS, Ebola, Bird flu and Swine flu, which didn't impact the UK in the way many feared. So when Covid came there was a fairly blase attitude. 

[davy-hay]

This virus is awful 

[phart]

 

[TDYER63]

Can someone explain to me why we are not insisting that people who fly in and out of the country should, at their own expense, isolate in a hotel on return like what happens in Australia ?  Why do all of us stick by the rules when others do what they want,  and nobody seems to care.
Please dont say we need to trust the public to adhere to the isolation  because many of them dont. Putting people in hotels would also bring some help to this industry which is being badly hurt.

And why cant the army police the borders of each UK country to ensure people only make essential travel between them ? We are getting told what a threat this virus is, which it is. People have been unable to see families in care homes for months and people in hospitals get no visitors. 

What is point of the army if they are not called upon at a time like this ? 

Am I missing something ? 
 

 

[phart]

48 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

Can someone explain to me why we are not insisting that people who fly in and out of the country should, at their own expense, isolate in a hotel on return like what happens in Australia ?  Why do all of us stick by the rules when others do what they want,  and nobody seems to care.
Please dont say we need to trust the public to adhere to the isolation  because many of them dont. Putting people in hotels would also bring some help to this industry which is being badly hurt.

And why cant the army police the borders of each UK country to ensure people only make essential travel between them ? We are getting told what a threat this virus is, which it is. People have been unable to see families in care homes for months and people in hospitals get no visitors. 

What is point of the army if they are not called upon at a time like this ? 

Am I missing something ? 
 

 

Loads of folk care just not the right folk.

 

[Rolling hIlls]

7 minutes ago, phart said:

Loads of folk care just not the right folk.

 

Like Celtic?  I have a meeting online today.  Not going back until Feb 1st at the earliest.  This is a football forum and I would be saying exactly the same if it was Rangers that went away so not point scoring.  What they have done in these times is wrong and should be investigated.

[TDYER63]

12 minutes ago, phart said:

Loads of folk care just not the right folk.

 

By ‘nobody’ I meant nobody with the power to implement stricter measures. I know loads of people care else there would mot be so many adhering to the rules. It is pretty pointless though when there are so many loopholes. 

I noticed that Scotland has made it law to adhere to these new rules. I cant see anything saying England has , have they ? Not that it matters a jot if no one is strictly monitoring things . 

[Rolling hIlls]

1 minute ago, TDYER63 said:

By ‘nobody’ I meant nobody with the power to implement stricter measures. I know loads of people care else there would mot be so many adhering to the rules. It is pretty pointless though when there are so many loopholes. 

I noticed that Scotland has made it law to adhere to these new rules. I cant see anything saying England has , have they ? Not that it matters a jot if no one is strictly monitoring things . 

It is common sense and common decency.

[Orraloon]

3 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

By ‘nobody’ I meant nobody with the power to implement stricter measures. I know loads of people care else there would mot be so many adhering to the rules. It is pretty pointless though when there are so many loopholes. 

I noticed that Scotland has made it law to adhere to these new rules. I cant see anything saying England has , have they ? Not that it matters a jot if no one is strictly monitoring things . 

It isn't pretty pointless if you want to reduce your own risk of catching the virus.

[Rolling hIlls]

4 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

It isn't pretty pointless if you want to reduce your own risk of catching the virus.

A club the size of Celtic should not be looking at loopholes.  They should be setting an example.  Poor from the club that is like no other.

[TDYER63]

12 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

It isn't pretty pointless if you want to reduce your own risk of catching the virus.

You know fine well what I mean. On an individual basis perhaps but not collectively. Do you think we would still be in this position if the government had taken stricter measures regarding who is coming in and out the UK and travel within it ? 
There may be a  very good reason why, I am just asking if anyone knows. Has it been proven that  closing the borders  and strict  isolation measures not make much  difference,  for example ? 

[Jersey Jim]

1 hour ago, TDYER63 said:

You know fine well what I mean. On an individual basis perhaps but not collectively. Do you think we would still be in this position if the government had taken stricter measures regarding who is coming in and out the UK and travel within it ? 
There may be a  very good reason why, I am just asking if anyone knows. Has it been proven that  closing the borders  and strict  isolation measures not make much  difference,  for example ? 

I suppose you could use the Channel Islands as an example of that.

Jersey has kept the borders open, everyone arriving into the island is tested, they then must self isolate at home until they receive a negative result. Despite these rules we had almost 1,000 active positive cases on the island last week ( population is 100,000 ) I believe it was the highest pro-rata rate anywhere in Europe.

Guernsey have basically locked themselves away from the outside world since last May ( pop 70, 000 ), Airport and harbours have been closed, last week they had 5 (FIVE) active cases.

Make of that what you will. 

 

[Orraloon]

1 hour ago, TDYER63 said:

You know fine well what I mean. On an individual basis perhaps but not collectively. Do you think we would still be in this position if the government had taken stricter measures regarding who is coming in and out the UK and travel within it ? 
There may be a  very good reason why, I am just asking if anyone knows. Has it been proven that  closing the borders  and strict  isolation measures not make much  difference,  for example ? 

We should have shut our borders (New Zealand style) during the summer when we had almost eliminated the virus in Scotland. I know that Nicola doesn't have all the powers required to do that, but she should have been demanding that Westminster give her the required powers (at least on a temporary basis) to do so. When they refused to hand over those powers (as they almost certainly would have done) she should have made as much mileage out of that refusal as possible. New Zealand have shown us how to do this. It wouldn't be difficult to follow their example. The political will just isn't there to do it.

 

[Orraloon]

16 minutes ago, Jersey Jim said:

I suppose you could use the Channel Islands as an example of that.

Jersey has kept the borders open, everyone arriving into the island is tested, they then must self isolate at home until they receive a negative result. Despite these rules we had almost 1,000 active positive cases on the island last week ( population is 100,000 ) I believe it was the highest pro-rata rate anywhere in Europe.

Guernsey have basically locked themselves away from the outside world since last May ( pop 70, 000 ), Airport and harbours have been closed, last week they had 5 (FIVE) active cases.

Make of that what you will. 

 

Did they make much attempt to enforce that?

We had the 14 day quarantine rule but there was very little attempt to enforce it, so it would appear that a significant proportion of folk just ignored it.

[TDYER63]

35 minutes ago, Jersey Jim said:

I suppose you could use the Channel Islands as an example of that.

Jersey has kept the borders open, everyone arriving into the island is tested, they then must self isolate at home until they receive a negative result. Despite these rules we had almost 1,000 active positive cases on the island last week ( population is 100,000 ) I believe it was the highest pro-rata rate anywhere in Europe.

Guernsey have basically locked themselves away from the outside world since last May ( pop 70, 000 ), Airport and harbours have been closed, last week they had 5 (FIVE) active cases.

Make of that what you will. 

 

I think when taken into account along with every other  country that have near zero cases then it is abundantly clear it makes a big difference. Would not have been so good for your job Jimmy if Jersey had done the same thing, but I would have thought the extra money created in the economy  by people going about their business as usual would have helped fund the airport workers wages. And you could have perhaps got a part time job as an usherette at the cinema to keep you busy in your spare time 😙

Seriously though, the difference between the 2 islands is marked. 

[TDYER63]

57 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

We should have shut our borders (New Zealand style) during the summer when we had almost eliminated the virus in Scotland. I know that Nicola doesn't have all the powers required to do that, but she should have been demanding that Westminster give her the required powers (at least on a temporary basis) to do so. When they refused to hand over those powers (as they almost certainly would have done) she should have made as much mileage out of that refusal as possible. New Zealand have shown us how to do this. It wouldn't be difficult to follow their example. The political will just isn't there to do it.

 

I completely agree and I cannot think why there is not the political will to enforce it. I do not know anyone who thinks its a bad idea , at least none that will admit it, so why the hesitation ? 
Is it too late now ? Is the vaccine and another lockdown being seen as the best way out of this at this stage and that its pointless closing borders ? 
Who knows if Nicola Sturgeon would have taken the bull by the horns months ago and locked the borders had we been a country that could make its own decisions without running to Westminster. Judging by the steps she did take , ahead of the UK government, I think there is a fairly good chance she would have been bolder in her actions .
However you are right , despite her hands being tied she would have been better pushing for the borders to be closed in the summer. She was in a win win position. Our cases were few and she had most of the public’s support. Worst that could have happened is the numbers crept up again , but so would Englands. So why did she not push for this ? To me the drastic measures have been continuously getting introduced after the horse has bolted. 

Edited January 5, 2021 by TDYER63
.

[aaid]

8 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I completely agree and I cannot think why there is not the political will to enforce it. I do not know anyone who thinks its a bad idea , at least none that will admit it, so why the hesitation ? 
Is it too late now ? Is the vaccine and another lockdown being seen as the best way out of this at this stage and that its pointless closing borders ? 
Who knows if Nicola Sturgeon would have taken the bull by the horns months ago and locked the borders had we been a country that could make its own decisions without running to Westminster. Judging by the steps she did take , ahead of the UK government, I think there is a fairly good chance she would have been bolder in her actions .
However you are right , despite her hands being tied she would have been better pushing for the borders to be closed in the summer. She was in a win win position. Our cases were few and she had most of the public’s support. Worst that could have happened is the numbers crept up again , but so would Englands. So why did she not push for this ? To me the drastic measures have been continuously getting introduced after the horse has bolted. 

Jason Leitch addressed part of this earlier in the briefing, when prevalence is high - as it is now - then closing international borders doesn't really make that much of a difference for the simple reason that the community transmission is high enough itself within the country.  What makes more of a difference is stopping travel within the country, particularly between high and low prevalence areas. hence stay at home and when you go out for essential purposes stay as local as you can do.

He didn't go as far as saying that they should've closed the borders last summer but hinted that - with hindsight - they should've done.

I still say New Zealand is a bad comparator just for it's geographical position, it is an island - or two to be accurate - Scotland is not and a land border is hard to police even if you want to, just in terms of the movement of essential supplies.  NZ is probably the most remote major country in the world, Scotland is highly connected both to the rest of the UK and Europe.

In short, even if Scotland were independent, closing the borders in the way that New Zealand did would be a lot more difficult and have much bigger implications and couldn't be done easily or in a straightforwards way.

Not being independent - especially given the current political climate - would've made it impossible, not least from not having the powers to do it but also from the fallout that it would cause.

[Orraloon]

38 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I completely agree and I cannot think why there is not the political will to enforce it. I do not know anyone who thinks its a bad idea , at least none that will admit it, so why the hesitation ? 
Is it too late now ? Is the vaccine and another lockdown being seen as the best way out of this at this stage and that its pointless closing borders ? 
Who knows if Nicola Sturgeon would have taken the bull by the horns months ago and locked the borders had we been a country that could make its own decisions without running to Westminster. Judging by the steps she did take , ahead of the UK government, I think there is a fairly good chance she would have been bolder in her actions .
However you are right , despite her hands being tied she would have been better pushing for the borders to be closed in the summer. She was in a win win position. Our cases were few and she had most of the public’s support. Worst that could have happened is the numbers crept up again , but so would Englands. So why did she not push for this ? To me the drastic measures have been continuously getting introduced after the horse has bolted. 

For me, the reason why the Tories don't want to do it is fairly straightforward. They will say they are trying to "protect the economy". But what they mean by protecting the economy is different from what most folk think it means. It's their form of doublespeak for protecting and increasing their own personal wealth and that of their Tory friends. The prime reason Tories get into politics in the first place, is to protect and enhance the wealth of Tories. 

I would like to think Nicola doesn't have that excuse, so I would put it down to naivety, lack of self confidence and weak leadership. She is trying her best in very difficult circumstances ,but I just don't think she has a strong enough character to really take control and force her will onto other people.  

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by Orraloon