Coronavirus

[ThistleWhistle]

13 hours ago, slasher said:

It's an absolute cluster fuck from Swinney. He's done a complete 180 in a week ffs! The logistics behind this are huge never mind teaching prep. As an SNP supporter generally I'm none too happy at how this has been handled. 😕

Totally agree - stinks of shitting themselves that folk will kick off after Boris went all in.  

They'd have been better toeing the line until summer holidays then announcing it then so at least schools could at least say they'd need a couple of weeks of term to get back to normal (presuming they couldn't do it during their holiday) which would then at least look like a coherent plan.  

 

[Squirrelhumper]

13 hours ago, slasher said:

It's an absolute cluster fuck from Swinney. He's done a complete 180 in a week ffs! The logistics behind this are huge never mind teaching prep. As an SNP supporter generally I'm none too happy at how this has been handled. 😕

He fills me with zero confidence.

Both my brother and sister are teachers, have knocked their pan in getting stuff ready for end of term today then that yesterday!

 

[aaid]

2 hours ago, slasher said:

On this occasion they are fully entitled to moan. A week ago Swinney said it was unlikely schools would be back to normal before next summer and next year's exam diet was under threat. Thousands of pounds and man hours have been spent on social distancing prep. To give you one example I know of, one school has 1500 items of furniture lying in a gym hall having been carried down 3 flights of stairs that may have to be returned at short notice. Swinney then waits till the last day of term to change tact and I've no doubt he's bent under pressure from the Tories and parents alike. He's put a lot of people under tremendous pressure and if the system buckles he should pay with his job. 

So here's the problem.  Schools can open - close to - normal in August, assuming that fall in transmission of the virus continues on the same trajectory.   If that doesn't happen then schools will have to have contingency plans in place to provide alternatives and those contingency plans will involve spending money on things now in the hope that you don't have to use them but have them available if you do.

Even if there isn't a national increase, I'd say it's inevitable that we'll see localised outbreak which will result in individual schools having to either close completly or to works at some reduced level.  Since it's impossible to predict which schools will be impacted, every school has to be prepared.

God forbid those people who put the Louisa Jordan together would complain about having to cart beds in that haven't been used.

 

[aaid]

28 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

He fills me with zero confidence.

Both my brother and sister are teachers, have knocked their pan in getting stuff ready for end of term today then that yesterday!

 

Like no-one's ever had to do work that turned out to be of no use before.

i remember working on a project for about 18 months that was canned because the funding was cut, a lot of it was my design as well which was never realised so that pissed me off.

A mate of mine spent two years working on building a satellite that blew up on launch.  I asked him about and how pissed off he must have been, he said "a bit but the guys that had spent five years on it weren't happy"

[TDYER63]

22 minutes ago, aaid said:

So here's the problem.  Schools can open - close to - normal in August, assuming that fall in transmission of the virus continues on the same trajectory.   If that doesn't happen then schools will have to have contingency plans in place to provide alternatives and those contingency plans will involve spending money on things now in the hope that you don't have to use them but have them available if you do.

Even if there isn't a national increase, I'd say it's inevitable that we'll see localised outbreak which will result in individual schools having to either close completly or to works at some reduced level.  Since it's impossible to predict which schools will be impacted, every school has to be prepared.

God forbid those people who put the Louisa Jordan together would complain about having to cart beds in that haven't been used.

 

Completely agree. This virus is a moving target and things can change very quickly. The position we are in this week to what we were in last week is different and it will be different again next week.  
To have been unprepared for a resurgence of the virus would be totally irresponsible. If the country had been prepared with PPE we may not be in this position so you can hardly criticise them for trying to be ahead of the game on this occasion. 

People always seem to see changes as a weakness and indicative that the original decision was wrong. Personally I would rather have a government that will reconsider and adapt rather than plough on through regardless. Its not a U turn. The schools were always going to reopen, it is simply a change of direction dependent on the circumstances. 

[phart]

The difference is teachers will have done a lot of this work off-clock. The teaching profession is already pissed off with the shambles which is the new cirriculum etc, dismissing their views and concerns isn't a good way going forward. If the view is shared by a huge majority of the profession it becomes irrelevant if some random decides their concern is not valid cause other folk have done work that went tits up. you have to deal with the reality not what one thinks the reality should be.

Every single teacher I know is annoyed about this, what other folks subjective opinion is about the validity of that is irrelevant when the perception within the profession is the opposite and seems unanimous.

EDIT: I was in the PGDE course 15 years ago so I know a lot of teachers, it's not 1 or 2 peeps.

Edited June 24, 2020 by phart

[Squirrelhumper]

10 minutes ago, aaid said:

Like no-one's ever had to do work that turned out to be of no use before.

i remember working on a project for about 18 months that was canned because the funding was cut, a lot of it was my design as well which was never realised so that pissed me off.

A mate of mine spent two years working on building a satellite that blew up on launch.  I asked him about and how pissed off he must have been, he said "a bit but the guys that had spent five years on it weren't happy"

I never said that.

Swinney literally did a 180 in a matter of days. That's not just due to a sudden change in circumstances.

 

[Squirrelhumper]

6 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

it is simply a change of direction dependent on the circumstances. 

They literally changed the direction the day the letters were landing on folks doormats about what days their kids were going to school! Wasn't just a change of direction, it was a full U turn. They went from kids being in 2 days a week with social distancing to kids being in 5 days a week with no social distancing.

 

[TDYER63]

1 minute ago, phart said:

The difference is teachers will have done a lot of this work off-clock. The teaching profession is already pissed off with the shambles which is the new cirriculum etc, dismissing their views and concerns isn't a good way going forward. If the view is shared by a huge majority of the profession it becomes irrelevant if some random decides their concern is not valid cause other folk have done work that went tits up. you have to deal with the reality not what one thinks the reality should be.

Every single teacher I know is annoyed about this, what other folks subjective opinion is about the validity of that is irrelevant when the perception within the profession is the opposite and seems unanimous.

 

The thing is, just about every person and businesss in the entire country has been affected adversely by this. I have had to set up a foreign exchange dealing system  in my home,  with very limited IT skills as we always have IT people at hand in the office to help. I was working ridiculous hours.  The first month I thought i was going to have a heart attack it was so stressful. There is no way I am alone in this. But at least I have a job , so many people are losing them .

As much as I have a lot of sympathy for teachers as I know first hand how much they do ( my daughter is one) this really is unprecedented times  and the extra work may be necessary. 

The other issues you mention may have validity, I am talking about this specific decision. 

 

 

 

[slasher]

41 minutes ago, aaid said:

So here's the problem.  Schools can open - close to - normal in August, assuming that fall in transmission of the virus continues on the same trajectory.   If that doesn't happen then schools will have to have contingency plans in place to provide alternatives and those contingency plans will involve spending money on things now in the hope that you don't have to use them but have them available if you do.

Even if there isn't a national increase, I'd say it's inevitable that we'll see localised outbreak which will result in individual schools having to either close completly or to works at some reduced level.  Since it's impossible to predict which schools will be impacted, every school has to be prepared.

God forbid those people who put the Louisa Jordan together would complain about having to cart beds in that haven't been used.

 

You're ignoring the practicalities of this, principally that to make this work either way the schools needed clarity last week. He should have followed the lead of the Irish and Welsh who are working on a 1m social distancing model which will allow them to swing either way depending on how this goes. 🙅‍♂️

[aaid]

14 minutes ago, phart said:

The difference is teachers will have done a lot of this work off-clock. The teaching profession is already pissed off with the shambles which is the new cirriculum etc, dismissing their views and concerns isn't a good way going forward. If the view is shared by a huge majority of the profession it becomes irrelevant if some random decides their concern is not valid cause other folk have done work that went tits up. you have to deal with the reality not what one thinks the reality should be.

Every single teacher I know is annoyed about this, what other folks subjective opinion is about the validity of that is irrelevant when the perception within the profession is the opposite and seems unanimous.

EDIT: I was in the PGDE course 15 years ago so I know a lot of teachers, it's not 1 or 2 peeps.

That particular project I was talking about involved a lot of late nights and weekends from me - all unpaid.   I didn't complain about that then and I'm not complaining about it now, some things are part of the job and if you're not prepared to accept that then you should go and do something else.   That said, people should always be paid a fair wage for the work they do and I wouldn't argue that teachers in particular are underpaid.

I doubt this is reality - or at least not the whole story - however it is certainly the perception that the teaching profession in Scotland - or to be exact, their representatives, ie., the unions - seem to be of the opinion that they are the only font of knowledge as regards teaching and that they should basically be allowed to get on without anyone else having any input.    The perception also comes across that teachers feel that in terms of the stakeholders in education - teachers, pupils, parents, councils/government - they are the most important and the one who's voice should be loudest.   I doubt the vast majority of individual teachers think that but it is certainly how the union leaders come across - particularly the EIS guy, Larry Flanagan?

[aaid]

4 minutes ago, slasher said:

You're ignoring the practicalities of this, principally that to make this work either way the schools needed clarity last week. He should have followed the lead of the Irish and Welsh who are working on a 1m social distancing model which will allow them to swing either way depending on how this goes. 🙅‍♂️

And the 1m social distancing model only stacks up if the rate of transmission is contained.   Building a strategy predicated on that would seem to me to be pretty stupid.

[slasher]

3 minutes ago, aaid said:

And the 1m social distancing model only stacks up if the rate of transmission is contained.   Building a strategy predicated on that would seem to me to be pretty stupid.

It also allows you to move to a 2m strategy or zero pretty quickly which was the central point I was making. Although I'd have thought that was obvious 🤔

[aaid]

7 minutes ago, slasher said:

It also allows you to move to a 2m strategy or zero pretty quickly which was the central point I was making. Although I'd have thought that was obvious 🤔

Obviously it wasn't obvious.  How does that work exactly then?

[slasher]

6 minutes ago, aaid said:

Obviously it wasn't obvious.  How does that work exactly then?

Put simply it'll allow for 25% extra capacity and would mean logistically removing 25% less material. It also leaves wiggle room to go either way at short notice whilst providing clarity for teachers, parents and support staff. Obviously I'm simplifying the numbers a bit but the overall trend applies. 

[phart]

15 minutes ago, aaid said:

That particular project I was talking about involved a lot of late nights and weekends from me - all unpaid.   I didn't complain about that then and I'm not complaining about it now, some things are part of the job and if you're not prepared to accept that then you should go and do something else.   That said, people should always be paid a fair wage for the work they do and I wouldn't argue that teachers in particular are underpaid.

I doubt this is reality - or at least not the whole story - however it is certainly the perception that the teaching profession in Scotland - or to be exact, their representatives, ie., the unions - seem to be of the opinion that they are the only font of knowledge as regards teaching and that they should basically be allowed to get on without anyone else having any input.    The perception also comes across that teachers feel that in terms of the stakeholders in education - teachers, pupils, parents, councils/government - they are the most important and the one who's voice should be loudest.   I doubt the vast majority of individual teachers think that but it is certainly how the union leaders come across - particularly the EIS guy, Larry Flanagan?

All of this irrelevant in the context of teachers feeling once again they've been failed by the folk that dictate the terms in which they have to operate. The disgruntlement appears to be universal. Whether it's seen to be justified or not by the general public isn't the problem.

Hopefully some communication from the relevant authorities explaining the decision making will mitigate these feelings. Then everyone can just get on with their jobs.

I have no clue about the merits of the decision making process, i'm just saying my facebook suddenly filled with a lot of annoyed folk. I work as an unpaid carer i log thousands of unpaid hours a year. Pointing that out won't appease anyone though.

[aaid]

2 minutes ago, slasher said:

Put simply it'll allow for 25% extra capacity and would mean logistically removing 25% less material. It also leaves wiggle room to go either way at short notice whilst providing clarity for teachers, parents and support staff. Obviously I'm simplifying the numbers a bit but the overall trend applies. 

I still don't get it. - have you got a link or anything that has more detail?

Edited June 24, 2020 by aaid

[ThistleWhistle]

25 minutes ago, aaid said:

That particular project I was talking about involved a lot of late nights and weekends from me - all unpaid.   I didn't complain about that then and I'm not complaining about it now, some things are part of the job and if you're not prepared to accept that then you should go and do something else.   That said, people should always be paid a fair wage for the work they do and I wouldn't argue that teachers in particular are underpaid.

I doubt this is reality - or at least not the whole story - however it is certainly the perception that the teaching profession in Scotland - or to be exact, their representatives, ie., the unions - seem to be of the opinion that they are the only font of knowledge as regards teaching and that they should basically be allowed to get on without anyone else having any input.    The perception also comes across that teachers feel that in terms of the stakeholders in education - teachers, pupils, parents, councils/government - they are the most important and the one who's voice should be loudest.   I doubt the vast majority of individual teachers think that but it is certainly how the union leaders come across - particularly the EIS guy, Larry Flanagan?

I’m only looking at this from a primary school perspective so secondary is currently a mystery to me but don’t envy them at all.  However, the perception I’m getting is the perceived needs of the teachers at our primary school are superseding the needs of the kids. Despite the announcement yesterday we’ve had documentation through this morning about the bubbles and how they’ll operate on return unless they’re advised to the contrary so despite yesterday’s announcement looks like we’ll be cracking on with blended initially regardless of where the infection rate sits.    

 

I’d not really be that grumpy about that if the Wednesday had been used for deep cleaning as I could just about buy it but a Friday!  What use is that in protecting teachers (5) and students (50) in Group B from Group A and if they can have Group A & B going in back to back why not clean over the weekend to free up a fifth day of teaching?           

 

Swiney’s done them no favours in that he could have announced it during school holiday so they could have used the holiday as an excuse not to put it in place for a few weeks.  Now, teachers need to just get on with it or folk will be totally pissed off if they just sod off on holiday for 6 weeks without being ready for full return.  Got be honest running out of patience and moaning about getting setup for something not needed will just exacerbate it as that’s just the way it is for almost everyone else. 

 

I know two teachers pretty well and one believes they’ve the hardest job in the world that should be held in as high esteem as nurses whereas the other one sits 427^th on the Fortnite league table so not all of them have been busting their pan in for the last 3 months. 

 

It’s all likely to go tits up anyway and we’ll be shut down again by end of October doing School nativity via zoom and eating starved greyhound for Christmas dinner with Jools playing his piano solo for 5 hours to see in the Bells.     

[aaid]

2 minutes ago, phart said:

All of this irrelevant in the context of teachers feeling once again they've been failed by the folk that dictate the terms in which they have to operate. The disgruntlement appears to be universal. Whether it's seen to be justified or not by the general public isn't the problem.

 

Well it's kind of relevant to the general public isn't it ?

[TDYER63]

10 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

They literally changed the direction the day the letters were landing on folks doormats about what days their kids were going to school! Wasn't just a change of direction, it was a full U turn. They went from kids being in 2 days a week with social distancing to kids being in 5 days a week with no social distancing.

 

The timing of the letters was admittedly poor,  but its not like the rotas were drawn up the day before the letters were sent out. 
The preparation for for all this will have taken time , at a time when there were still too many people being infected to make a bold enough call to allow all kids back 5 days in August.  
Yes some work will have been done that may never be required , but I would rather have that then no alternative plan come August. 

The people that are moaning are moaning about the proposed original plan and the effort that has gone in . They are not moaning about the schools going back so this must be a positive change of direction.
You may see it as a u turn , I think of u turns as completely back tracking on something .
With this I see an effort having originally been made to get the kids back in August in a safe environment amidst an ongoing pandemic, to getting them back to normal schooling should the data be promising. I dont see that as a u turn , I see that as 2 completely  different situations, however my interpretation of this may be flawed. 

 

[slasher]

4 minutes ago, aaid said:

I still don't get it. - have you got a link or anything that has more detail?

I don't, but I'm not sure what you're not getting. It's basically a halfway house between 2m social distancing and normality which allows you to jump either way at short notice. You have to remember support services have been cut to the bone. There just isn't the knowledge or manpower to cut one way or another at short notice. 

[phart]

5 minutes ago, aaid said:

Well it's kind of relevant to the general public isn't it ?

In so much as any dispute between a profession and their policy makers is (for parents with kids getting educated in Scotland that is)

[TDYER63]

8 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

 

It’s all likely to go tits up anyway and we’ll be shut down again by end of October doing School nativity via zoom and eating starved greyhound for Christmas dinner with Jools playing his piano solo for 5 hours to see in the Bells.     

 

😂😂

[aaid]

30 minutes ago, slasher said:

I don't, but I'm not sure what you're not getting. It's basically a halfway house between 2m social distancing and normality which allows you to jump either way at short notice. You have to remember support services have been cut to the bone. There just isn't the knowledge or manpower to cut one way or another at short notice. 

Looking at it simplistically, 1m or 2m places a restriction on the number of people you can have in any given space - appreciate its more complicated that that, but that's the general principle.

Lets say for the sake of the argument, at 1m you can get all the kids that would normally be in a classroom with one teacher and at 2m, then you need 2 classrooms and two teachers or alternatively kids can only be in the classroom for half the time.

So if you plan for 2m and it transpires that you are actually okay to work at 1m, then all you have to do is not to use the additional classroom and teacher or scrap the plans for blended learning.  Happy days.

However, if you plan for 1m and suddenly -  because of a local spike or whatever - you need to quickly go to 2m and you don't have the spare classroom and teacher or haven't thought about how you'll do blended learning then you are donald-ducked and you are starting from scratch.

That's what I don't understand about your argument.

[aaid]

45 minutes ago, phart said:

In so much as any dispute between a profession and their policy makers is (for parents with kids getting educated in Scotland that is)

Everyone - or at least everyone who lives there- has a stake - and should be interested - in the success of the education sector in that country regardless of whether or not they currently have children being educated.