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25 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

Scotland voted No in 2014

Despite the Scottish Government's policy of "acting as if we are Independent" the powers of the Scottish Parliament are extremely limited particularly when it comes to the Scottish economy.

It is nothing to do with what the Unionist press would say if the Scottish Government had the tools to do everything differently from the off - they didnt.

It was a UK wide approach right from the off

The devolved administrations had a little leeway in the timing of certain things but not in anything major despite Scottish Unionists even hating that

As Westminster control the purse strings how could we ?

 

The answer to both the points that phart raised is - none, absolutely nothing.   Both these examples are things which are fully within the power and control of the Scottish Government and any responsibility and accountability that flows from them is there's alone.   I'd take issue with the effect of both of these decisions on the number of deaths, how significant or otherwise they were but that's a different argument.

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20 minutes ago, phart said:

Policy decision on when to start a track and trace operation and policy decisions on how to repatriate care home residents from hospitals have nothing to do with purse strings or the results of a refererendum in 2014.

As far as i am aware at the beginning most countries in Europe had the same policy regards repatriation of care home residents due to everyone expecting Hospitals to be over run with Covid-19 patients

Patients with Covid-19 being transferred to Care Homes was clearly not deliberate and more to do with a lack of knowledge about the virus and it's incubation period.

I also believe track and trace isnt robust enough to work when an outbreak takes hold - it only works at the very start or at the very end, or in a lockdown

It was a UK wide policy to bin tracing once thousands were infected as they did not have the resources to continue it

 

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2 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

 

It was a UK wide policy to bin tracing once thousands were infected as they did not have the resources to continue it

 

Saying something is a UK wide policy doesn't mean that it was mandated by the UK government though.   If the SG had wanted to go their own way, they could've.

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12 minutes ago, aaid said:

If the SG had wanted to go their own way, they could've.

And if my Auntie had baws she would be my Uncle

How many times have you heard at the Number 10 press conferences "This is a UK wide approach" or "This is a 4 nation approach" ?

The hoo ha about the meetings Cummings attends also include the Scottish Goverment medical officials et al

After these meetings decided what actions to take if the Scottish Government had said "Fuck that - we are going to do it differently then the quid pro quo would have been you wont be included in our SEISS or Furlough programmes

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4 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

And if my Auntie had baws she would be my Uncle

How many times have you heard at the Number 10 press conferences "This is a UK wide approach" or "This is a 4 nation approach" ?

The hoo ha about the meetings Cummings attends also include the Scottish Goverment medical officials et al

After these meetings decided what actions to take if the Scottish Government had said "Fuck that - we are going to do it differently then the quid pro quo would have been you wont be included in our SEISS or Furlough programmes

Now you're just making things up.  

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https://www.carehomeprofessional.com/european-survey-reveals-england-has-lowest-rate-of-covid-19-care-home-deaths/

Scotland's ratio of care home deaths is compatible to Germany 37%, France 50%, Norway 60% and Spain 66%. The problem is the headcount rather than the ratio and it is an absolute shit show. 

From this England sitting at 22% is bollocks and should be double too. 

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1 hour ago, aaid said:

Now you're just making things up.  

OUR PLAN TO REBUILD: The UK Government’s COVID-19 recovery strategy7From the start, the Government was guided by science, publishing on 3 March its plan2to contain, delay, and mitigate any outbreak, and use research to inform policy development.Responding to the advice of Government scientists, on 7 March those with symptoms were asked to self-isolate for 7 days. On 16 March,the Government introduced shielding for the most vulnerable and called on the British public to cease non-essential contact and travel. On 18 March, the Government announced the closure of schools. On 20 March entertainment, hospitality and indoor leisurevenues were closed. And on 23 March the Government took decisive steps to introduce the Stay at Home guidance. Working with the devolved administrations, the Government had to take drastic action to protect the NHS and save lives. Delivering this plan wasthe first phase of the Government’s response, and due to the extraordinary sacrifice of the British people and the efforts of the NHS, this first phase has suppressed the spread of the virus

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/28/uk/scotland-recommends-wearing-face-masks-gbr-intl/index.html

Scotland recommends face coverings as cracks emerge in UK-wide approach to coronavirus

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/scotland-coronavirus-cases-deaths-covid-19/

 

Parts of Scotland where the coronavirus is less widespread could enjoy fewer restrictions than the rest of the country and England, the country's chief medical officer has said. 

Although supporting a UK-wide approach now, Dr Catherine Calderwood said it may "not be appropriate to have all of the suppression measures in all of the country" later on.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/politics/uk-politics/2166646/coronavirus-matt-hancock-calls-for-uk-wide-approach-after-scottish-government-publish-lockdown-exit-plan/

Coronavirus: Matt Hancock calls for ‘UK-wide approach’ after Scottish Government publishes lockdown exit plan

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18455453.uk-government-threatens-cut-furlough-payments-scotland/

THE UK Government will cut additional funding for a job retention scheme if Scotland stays in lockdown for longer than England, it has been claimed.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1284384/rishi-sunak-nicola-sturgeon-snp-news-scotland-coronavirus-uk-news-furlough-scheme

RISHI SUNAK has issued a warning to devolved administrations revolting against the Government's UK-wide strategy, emphasising his coronavirus measures should be adopted by a united kingdom, not a divided one.

 

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And less we forget Unionists lying about the stats in England and Scotland to try and make the Scottish Government look worse

If they can help it they would never allow any part of this "Union of Equals" to be seen as doing better than England

Edited by Ally Bongo
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7 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

OUR PLAN TO REBUILD: The UK Government’s COVID-19 recovery strategy7From the start, the Government was guided by science, publishing on 3 March its plan2to contain, delay, and mitigate any outbreak, and use research to inform policy development.Responding to the advice of Government scientists, on 7 March those with symptoms were asked to self-isolate for 7 days. On 16 March,the Government introduced shielding for the most vulnerable and called on the British public to cease non-essential contact and travel. On 18 March, the Government announced the closure of schools. On 20 March entertainment, hospitality and indoor leisurevenues were closed. And on 23 March the Government took decisive steps to introduce the Stay at Home guidance. Working with the devolved administrations, the Government had to take drastic action to protect the NHS and save lives. Delivering this plan wasthe first phase of the Government’s response, and due to the extraordinary sacrifice of the British people and the efforts of the NHS, this first phase has suppressed the spread of the virus

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/28/uk/scotland-recommends-wearing-face-masks-gbr-intl/index.html

Scotland recommends face coverings as cracks emerge in UK-wide approach to coronavirus

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/scotland-coronavirus-cases-deaths-covid-19/

 

Parts of Scotland where the coronavirus is less widespread could enjoy fewer restrictions than the rest of the country and England, the country's chief medical officer has said. 

Although supporting a UK-wide approach now, Dr Catherine Calderwood said it may "not be appropriate to have all of the suppression measures in all of the country" later on.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/politics/uk-politics/2166646/coronavirus-matt-hancock-calls-for-uk-wide-approach-after-scottish-government-publish-lockdown-exit-plan/

Coronavirus: Matt Hancock calls for ‘UK-wide approach’ after Scottish Government publishes lockdown exit plan

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18455453.uk-government-threatens-cut-furlough-payments-scotland/

THE UK Government will cut additional funding for a job retention scheme if Scotland stays in lockdown for longer than England, it has been claimed.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1284384/rishi-sunak-nicola-sturgeon-snp-news-scotland-coronavirus-uk-news-furlough-scheme

RISHI SUNAK has issued a warning to devolved administrations revolting against the Government's UK-wide strategy, emphasising his coronavirus measures should be adopted by a united kingdom, not a divided one.

 

So, at today's briefing, the FM was asked directly if  Scotland were to go back into lockdown for whatever reason, did she have confirmation from the Treasury that they'd continue to fund any furlough-type scheme.   Her response was along the lines that she couldn't see a situation where the SG would have its "hands tied" - quoting the words the journalist used - in its efforts to deal with the crisis.   I'll take her view on it before some spin from the express, a "newspaper" that only today was reporting how Janey Godley was mocking Nicola Sturgeon in her voiceover videos. 

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23 minutes ago, aaid said:

So, at today's briefing, the FM was asked directly if  Scotland were to go back into lockdown for whatever reason, did she have confirmation from the Treasury that they'd continue to fund any furlough-type scheme.   Her response was along the lines that she couldn't see a situation where the SG would have its "hands tied" - quoting the words the journalist used - in its efforts to deal with the crisis.   I'll take her view on it before some spin from the express, a "newspaper" that only today was reporting how Janey Godley was mocking Nicola Sturgeon in her voiceover videos. 

It was also in The Times and The National

"She couldnt see a situation where the SG would have it's hands tied" is up there with "The UK Government's position of No Referendum/Section 30 is untenable"

Think you are being extremely naive

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1 hour ago, Ally Bongo said:

And less we forget Unionists lying about the stats in England and Scotland to try and make the Scottish Government look worse

If they can help it they would never allow any part of this "Union of Equals" to be seen as doing better than England

Image

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Picked a bad year to stop sniffing glue...

 

https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/01-06-2020-new-ebola-outbreak-detected-in-northwest-democratic-republic-of-the-congo-who-surge-team-supporting-the-response

The Government of the Democratic Republic of the Congo announced today that a new outbreak of Ebola virus disease is occurring in Wangata health zone, Mbandaka, in Équateur province. The announcement comes as a long, difficult and complex Ebola outbreak in eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo is in its final phase, while the country also battles COVID-19 and the world’s largest measles outbreak.

https://www.wionews.com/south-asia/locust-attacks-in-pakistan-raise-fear-of-massive-food-shortages-301735

 

After creating havoc in Africa, locusts have entered South Asia and now threatening to cause massive crop loss and food shortages in the region. 

Locusts, which move in swarms of up to 50 million, have led to the worst plague in Pakistan in recent history, with damages costing billions of dollars and causing fears of long-term food shortages. 

Edited by phart
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14 hours ago, phart said:

Well let's test it.

What did the UK government do that allowed us to put in the track and trace system we have? What was the mechanism they had to activate before we could do it?

What mechanism did the UK government set in motion about how care home residents in hospital were repatriated back to them?

Folk like to mock the too wee too stupid line, but can't have your cake and eat it with this one. Either we were too wee too stupid and couldn't have done anything sooner cause of WestMinster(or god forbid what would the unionist press say) or we could have done things differently. The British figures are terrible comparatively, just cause ours are slightly better than Englands is hardly a badge of honour.

Serious questions need to be asked of the NHS, Public Health Scotland and the SG about why we didn't have adequate testing capacity at the start of the epidemic. It appears to be down to lack of access to the test kits. We had enough trained staff, we had enough PCR machines but we just couldn't get enough test kits quickly enough. Somebody needs to answer why that happened. What has been achieved since then, in regard to testing, makes it even more annoying to me. At the point when we had our first cases we could do no more than about 400 tests a day and even that was a struggle. We are now supposedly up to a capacity of 12500 a day although we never seem to test anywhere near that number. There is as much dubiety about the test numbers as there is about death rates. If we had had even 2000 tests per day at the start we could have done proper test and trace and maybe made a huge difference to the overall outcome. With less than 400 tests per day we couldn't even attempt a proper test and trace system which is why it never really got going.

Somebody needs to answer why these test kits weren't available. Other countries seemed to manage to get them. And we seem to have enough of them now, so why didn't we have them when we really needed them?

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274.co.uk

Thought this was interesting - am I right in thinking Scotland's 2363 deaths include where Covid-19 gets a mention?  If that is the case the comparative figure over the UK is 45,000 and not the 39,000.  If that's right out we're sitting at 5% of total.  

The other thing is yesterday we had 18 new cases and 1 death.  

Accordingly to that there were 1500 new cases across UK identified yesterday.  Unless they found those lost tests from USA that seems a lot especially how they're essentially opening up.  

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14 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274.co.uk

Thought this was interesting - am I right in thinking Scotland's 2363 deaths include where Covid-19 gets a mention?  If that is the case the comparative figure over the UK is 45,000 and not the 39,000.  If that's right out we're sitting at 5% of total.  

The other thing is yesterday we had 18 new cases and 1 death.  

Accordingly to that there were 1500 new cases across UK identified yesterday.  Unless they found those lost tests from USA that seems a lot especially how they're essentially opening up.  

That is confirmed COVID cases.

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5 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

That is confirmed COVID cases.

Cheers for this - just read the article it attaches to and saw that.  

What difference is there in the way England and Scotland record deaths or is NS havering? 

Edited by ThistleWhistle
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Just now, ThistleWhistle said:

Cheers just read the article it attaches too.  

What difference is there in the way England and Scotland record deaths or is NS havering? 

The equivalent confirmed case number for England is about 34,800. (2363 for Scotland)

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4 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

The NRS number as of 27th May is 3779. That's the number of cases where COVID is mentioned. The actual number will probably be somewhere in between those two measures. 

I'm struggling with the difference in counting that NS has mentioned but there is definitely something a bit fishy with down south.  We need sort our shit out up here but tories and their media cohorts can piss off.

Their ratio of care home deaths is sitting at 22% which is best in the world in comparison to similar nations.  They're  either doing really crap at hospital deaths or they're not declaring the full amount of care home deaths.  

Seen an article a fortnight ago that their number in homes should at least be double (10,000) but they're currently just in the excess deaths.  With yesterday's 500 chucked in, and how their z score is decreasing slower than anywhere else, could they honestly be creatively accounting - The 15,000 remaining excess deaths would seem too many to allocate to pissed up DIY! 

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12 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

The equivalent confirmed case number for England is about 34,800. (2363 for Scotland)

I should probably add that these numbers, on their own, are fairly meaningless, IMO. The media seem to like to report them for some reason.

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4 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/england-under-reporting-care-home-deaths-nicola-sturgeon-says-2869840

There's jiggery pokery going on essentially but its not up to her to investigate.  

I can't read that. 

But, it sounds like she has let her guard down a wee bit. I think she might be regretting having said that out loud, and in public?

Some folk are arguing that she should be doing more of that sort of stuff though. 

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13 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

I'm struggling with the difference in counting that NS has mentioned but there is definitely something a bit fishy with down south.  We need sort our shit out up here but tories and their media cohorts can piss off.

Their ratio of care home deaths is sitting at 22% which is best in the world in comparison to similar nations.  They're  either doing really crap at hospital deaths or they're not declaring the full amount of care home deaths.  

Seen an article a fortnight ago that their number in homes should at least be double (10,000) but they're currently just in the excess deaths.  With yesterday's 500 chucked in, and how their z score is decreasing slower than anywhere else, could they honestly be creatively accounting - The 15,000 remaining excess deaths would seem too many to allocate to pissed up DIY! 

Both Scotland and the UK - essentially England and Wales (but they also fold in Scotland and NI numbers to give an overall UK figure) - are providing two different sets of figures.

The first one is the daily figures which could be considered quick and dirty, those are deaths which of people who's death has been reported and who have been confirmed by a test as having COVID in the previous 24 hours.   They can get those number quickly because presumably they know who has tested positive and when that person sadly dies - or the death is reported - they can tie those up.  

The second set of numbers that are published are the weekly statistics and these provide two numbers, one is the number of deaths in total - all causes - in the previous seven days - and from which you can work out the excess number of deaths for that period based on a rolling 5 year average.    Secondly, they provide a total number of people who have died and where COVID is mentioned on the death certificate.    There will be a disparity between that number and summing up the daily numbers for a few reasons but primarily because not everyone who has had COVID recorded on their death certificate will have been tested.    

The problem with the weekly numbers is that they are by definition out of date.  The England and Wales numbers released by the ONS today are for the week ending 22nd May.   NRS is a bit more up-to-date, they tend to release numbers on a Thursday which relate to the previous week.  Therefore you can't reconcile the ONS numbers for Scotland with the NRS ones as it's different reporting periods.

Trying to reconcile these two sets of numbers is a fools errand but they both tell different but equally important things.   

If you want to look at a quicker moving trend then its the daily numbers, if you're interested in more detailed and more accurate but out of date numbers then its the weekly numbers.

The accusation - if you can call it that - is that the figures for deaths is care homes in England is lower than it should be considering all the other numbers and when comparing to comparable rates in other countries.   Whether or not that's true, there is enough of a dispute over its accuracy that it shouldn't really be relied upon.

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