Coronavirus

[ThistleWhistle]

4 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

By ‘nobody’ I meant nobody with the power to implement stricter measures. I know loads of people care else there would mot be so many adhering to the rules. It is pretty pointless though when there are so many loopholes. 

I noticed that Scotland has made it law to adhere to these new rules. I cant see anything saying England has , have they ? Not that it matters a jot if no one is strictly monitoring things . 

Sky News reporting BoJo is going to put requirements for tests before entering UK and will make announcement tonight.  Proof will be in the pudding and will no doubt be half arsed to appease complaints from the travel industry.

[TDYER63]

43 minutes ago, aaid said:

Jason Leitch addressed part of this earlier in the briefing, when prevalence is high - as it is now - then closing international borders doesn't really make that much of a difference for the simple reason that the community transmission is high enough itself within the country.  What makes more of a difference is stopping travel within the country, particularly between high and low prevalence areas. hence stay at home and when you go out for essential purposes stay as local as you can do.

He didn't go as far as saying that they should've closed the borders last summer but hinted that - with hindsight - they should've done.

I still say New Zealand is a bad comparator just for it's geographical position, it is an island - or two to be accurate - Scotland is not and a land border is hard to police even if you want to, just in terms of the movement of essential supplies.  NZ is probably the most remote major country in the world, Scotland is highly connected both to the rest of the UK and Europe.

In short, even if Scotland were independent, closing the borders in the way that New Zealand did would be a lot more difficult and have much bigger implications and couldn't be done easily or in a straightforwards way.

Not being independent - especially given the current political climate - would've made it impossible, not least from not having the powers to do it but also from the fallout that it would cause.

That first paragraph helps explain things a bit more, thanks.
The last paragraph I can agree with to an extent but I also think it easy to hide behind the political situation a bit. 
See below about second paragraph above .
 

29 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

For me, the reason why the Tories don't want to do it is fairly straightforward. They will say they are trying to "protect the economy". But what they mean by protecting the economy is different from what most folk think it means. It's their form of doublespeak for protecting and increasing their own personal wealth and that of their Tory friends. The prime reason Tories get into politics in the first place, is to protect and enhance the wealth of Tories. 

I would like to think Nicola doesn't have that excuse, so I would put it down to naivety, lack of self confidence and weak leadership. She is trying her best in very difficult circumstances ,but I just don't think she has a strong enough character to really take control and force her will onto other people.  

 

I was speaking to a customer earlier, he was back in the country for xmas and new year and was shocked at what the situation is like here. He is from Liverpool and works in Vietnam, he said its pretty normal over there . He is going back today. 
I had no idea what the situation was like in Vietnam so googled it a few mins ago. Now i know it is easy to pick and choose examples and both of you scrutinise things far more than I ever do, but its interesting to read this piece from the Guardian. Vietnam is not an island and it is well connected  with the rest of the world, and as the article says it is one of the few countries in the world with positive GDP growth. Yet it has managed to control this superbly. 
 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/20/vietnam-covid-economic-growth-public-health-coronavirus

[TDYER63]

11 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

Sky News reporting BoJo is going to put requirements for tests before entering UK and will make announcement tonight.  Proof will be in the pudding and will no doubt be half arsed to appease complaints from the travel industry.

HE must scared of me too 😊

[ThistleWhistle]

1 minute ago, TDYER63 said:

HE must scared of me too 😊

Travel industry arguing against it because it risks confidence in booking holidays. Couldn't make it up.

[TDYER63]

4 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

Travel industry arguing against it because it risks confidence in booking holidays. Couldn't make it up.

Every sector is fighting its own battle and unable to see the bigger picture. Travel is one of the areas that will probably boom when this is over as people will be so desperate to get away. The attitude is so short-termism. 

[Lairdyfaeinverclyde]

7 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

Travel industry arguing against it because it risks confidence in booking holidays. Couldn't make it up.

Saw this advert over Christmas. What a wanker O'Leary is.

 

[aaid]

31 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

That first paragraph helps explain things a bit more, thanks.
The last paragraph I can agree with to an extent but I also think it easy to hide behind the political situation a bit. 
See below about second paragraph above .
 

I was speaking to a customer earlier, he was back in the country for xmas and new year and was shocked at what the situation is like here. He is from Liverpool and works in Vietnam, he said its pretty normal over there . He is going back today. 
I had no idea what the situation was like in Vietnam so googled it a few mins ago. Now i know it is easy to pick and choose examples and both of you scrutinise things far more than I ever do, but its interesting to read this piece from the Guardian. Vietnam is not an island and it is well connected  with the rest of the world, and as the article says it is one of the few countries in the world with positive GDP growth. Yet it has managed to control this superbly. 
 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/20/vietnam-covid-economic-growth-public-health-coronavirus

A better comparison for Scotland would be the Republic of Ireland as they are obviously an independent state but who have the same levels of interconnectivity with Europe and the UK that Scotland does.  In reality, Scotland is a lot more connected to the UK where trade in goods is concerned that Ireland is, but I think its a fair comparison.

While the ROI took their own decisions and implemented their own regulations, I don't think they went as far as NZ did in using extreme border control measures.   A lot of that wouldn't be down to politics - although obviously there is sensitivity over the ROI/NI border - but rather the level that the country was dependent on the movement of goods.

Importation of the virus seems to have been a problem around the end of the summer, particularly with people returning from holidays in continental Europe.  It would be interesting to see what - if anything - Ireland did differently and whether there were any different outcomes.

[Orraloon]

26 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

That first paragraph helps explain things a bit more, thanks.
The last paragraph I can agree with to an extent but I also think it easy to hide behind the political situation a bit. 
See below about second paragraph above .
 

I was speaking to a customer earlier, he was back in the country for xmas and new year and was shocked at what the situation is like here. He is from Liverpool and works in Vietnam, he said its pretty normal over there . He is going back today. 
I had no idea what the situation was like in Vietnam so googled it a few mins ago. Now i know it is easy to pick and choose examples and both of you scrutinise things far more than I ever do, but its interesting to read this piece from the Guardian. Vietnam is not an island and it is well connected  with the rest of the world, and as the article says it is one of the few countries in the world with positive GDP growth. Yet it has managed to control this superbly. 
 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/20/vietnam-covid-economic-growth-public-health-coronavirus

Just shows you what can be done if the political will is there.

And, another example of lots of folk who had a good idea what was coming. Vietnam, Taiwan and others had the experience of SARS to draw on. What they learned from that put them in a good starting position. Public Health officials in the UK also had a good idea that we would be hit by something like this at some point. They didn't have direct experience of SARS but they learned a lot from how it had been handled. Plans were in the process of being put in place but political enthusiasm waned then budget cuts led to plans being shelved, and things like emergency stockpiles of PPE were allowed to dwindle. We had bird flu, swine flu, MERS scares and survived them relatively unscathed. Then when the big did come along we were not very well prepared at all. And to make things even worse we had Boris to handle the UK response to it.

[Diamond Scot]

A big problem is the total lack of enforcement. I can understand the personal responsibility responce when we 1st went into lockdown in March. The pandemic was new, the government didnt want to be seen to be going over the top and there was unknowns about how things would progress.

However we are now 10 months down the line. The virus only needs a small percentage of people to not follow the rules in order for it to spread. There are always people in society who dont follow the rules. Thats why we have laws that enforce them.

The approach to Covid would be the same as saying its against the law to steal, however if you arw caught stealing then aslong as you out the item back without issue then you wont be fined or prosecuted. Its madness.

The longer this has went on for the less people obey the rules, especially without consequences. Which in itsself causes problems because the more society sees other people breaking the rules and getting away with it, the more likely they are to do it themselves.

Substantial fines for all blatant breaches, criminal reports for those clearly endangering the lives of others. Courts could be setup to sentence Tags if need be.

This coupled with the obvious suggestions about testing and travel etc could have had the virus well under control long before now.

[davy-hay]

we'll be lucky to see the inside of a pub by September

[kumnio]

2 hours ago, Lairdyfaeinverclyde said:

Saw this advert over Christmas. What a wanker O'Leary is.

 

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that advert. The YouTube twat is trying desperately to twist it into something that it quite clearly isn’t. 

[Alibi]

4 hours ago, Orraloon said:

We should have shut our borders (New Zealand style) during the summer when we had almost eliminated the virus in Scotland. I know that Nicola doesn't have all the powers required to do that, but she should have been demanding that Westminster give her the required powers (at least on a temporary basis) to do so. When they refused to hand over those powers (as they almost certainly would have done) she should have made as much mileage out of that refusal as possible. New Zealand have shown us how to do this. It wouldn't be difficult to follow their example. The political will just isn't there to do it.

 

IIRC the unionists were telling us that there is no border between Scotland and England so it can't be closed.  Should have just got a few big concrete blocks and placed them on the M74 to divert non-essential traffic off the northbound slip road at Gretna and back on to the southbound carriageway.

Alister Jack, my local MP, is responsible for a lot of deaths resulting from this hardline unionist stance that he promoted.  I despise the man.  A face you'd never tire of punching.

[Lairdyfaeinverclyde]

/

Edited January 5, 2021 by Lairdyfaeinverclyde

[Lamia]

I think the reason border controls are important now despite the high prevalence is the risk of importing other mutations like the one in South Africa. I know there are restrictions travelling from SA but that isn't the only way it could be imported.

We have enough to contend with with our own mutation 

[Lamia]

5 hours ago, aaid said:

A better comparison for Scotland would be the Republic of Ireland as they are obviously an independent state but who have the same levels of interconnectivity with Europe and the UK that Scotland does.  In reality, Scotland is a lot more connected to the UK where trade in goods is concerned that Ireland is, but I think its a fair comparison.

While the ROI took their own decisions and implemented their own regulations, I don't think they went as far as NZ did in using extreme border control measures.   A lot of that wouldn't be down to politics - although obviously there is sensitivity over the ROI/NI border - but rather the level that the country was dependent on the movement of goods.

Importation of the virus seems to have been a problem around the end of the summer, particularly with people returning from holidays in continental Europe.  It would be interesting to see what - if anything - Ireland did differently and whether there were any different outcomes.

I don't know what they did regarding travel but they have been much quicker at introducing tough restrictions and had them in place longer.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Lamia

[phart]

Israel seem to be leading the way in regards to vaccination their scientists are giving a different message than the one Boris is portraying from BBC:

The top scientist advising Israel’s government on coronavirus has described the country’s early vaccination rate as “amazing” - but warned it will not be enough to overcome the disease for months yet.

So far some one and a half million people - more than 15% of the population, including half of all Israelis aged over 60 - have had a first dose.

Israel is a small country with highly centralised patient databases, and it did a quick if reportedly higher-priced deal with Pfizer-BioNtech to get the batches. All that helped.

But Professor Ran Balicer, who chairs the team of scientists advising Israel’s government, told the BBC that a fierce winter wave of infections meant vaccines would not help contain the virus for months yet.

"We’re in a fierce winter wave. It’s hitting Israel, it’s hitting many countries in Europe. Vaccines will not help us to contain this in the coming months,” he said. “We’re not out of the woods yet. We’re not even close.

[ErsatzThistle]

Couldn't help but notice a few disgusting bastards clearing their throats and spitting the stuff out in front of others yesterday at Rouken Glen Park. 

[Lamia]

BMA in Scotland not happy with the change to 12 weeks 
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-55557208?fbclid=IwAR07U-OfolE5TMiKxW--MkJTr7DDBW0Hm09GTrKWLseFE5cdvfWK9Yggamw

Edited January 6, 2021 by Lamia

[TDYER63]

Truly pathetic even from him.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/06/johnson-no-covid-vaccine-in-scotland-if-snp-had-its-way

 

[Hertsscot]

6 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

Truly pathetic even from him.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/06/johnson-no-covid-vaccine-in-scotland-if-snp-had-its-way

 

just the poundshop Churchill lying through his teeth again, nothing new.

[TDYER63]

8 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

just the poundshop Churchill lying through his teeth again, nothing new.

Surely he must know he will just be ridiculed. Seriously , he really is doing the SNP’s job for them on independence. 

[Orraloon]

The WHO seem to be softening their stance a wee bit on the decision to extend the period between doses. They are obviously very concerned about what is happening in the UK and potentially right across Europe. They are using the term "exceptional circumstances" when explaining their understanding of why the UK has decided to take a bit of a risk on this one. They not recommending it, but I don't think they are condemning it either.

"Hans Kluge, the WHO’s Europe director, said that while the arrival of vaccines offered “new tools” to fight the virus, almost half the 53 countries in the region were reporting a seven-day incidence rate of more than 150 new cases per 100,000 people, while a quarter had recorded a more than 10% surge in cases over the past week.

Kluge said countries rolling out the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine could be flexible on the gap between first and second doses, saying a balance should be struck between making the most of limited supplies and protecting as many people as possible.

Some countries including Britain are seeking to counter low vaccine supplies by extending the gap between first and second doses to up to 12 weeks, and by considering lower volume doses of some shots.

“It is important such a decision represents a safe compromise between the limited global production capacity at the moment, and the imperative for governments to protect as many people as possible while reducing the burden of any subsequent wave on health systems,” he said."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/07/europe-tipping-point-covid-running-rampant-who-new-variant

"The WHO’s Sage committee brought together a working group of 26 experts from around the world, who met online to recommend how the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine should be used. They will also meet to discuss other vaccines as they are approved by various regulators.

Their conclusion was that the two doses should be given three to four weeks apart, unless there are “exceptional circumstances of vaccine supply constraints and epidemiologic settings to delay the administration of the second approach for a few weeks in order to maximise the number of individuals benefiting from a first dose,” said Sage chair Dr Alejandro Cravioto in announcing their decision.

The exceptional delay was six weeks, it was later clarified. The data on safety and efficacy from the trials did not go beyond three to four weeks, but there was some data up to 42 days, or six weeks, the experts said."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/05/no-data-to-support-uk-delay-of-vaccines-second-dose-says-who

 

 

[phart]

 

[Orraloon]

40 minutes ago, phart said:

 

That's a very good graphic. 

And, that's with all the lockdown restrictions in place. 

 

[Rich NATA]

Re. UKG Coronavirus Briefings...

 

In the very comfortable environs of 10 Downing Street with it's oak panelling and plush carpeting throughout, why - when they roll out a soldier - is he dressed in full camouflage; as if on a tour of Afghanistan? 

 

What is the subliminal message?

Am I irrational in thinking it's not a world away from placing Union flags on food packaging?