Coronavirus

[Jim Beem]

25 minutes ago, phart said:

fuck my gran was on the phone saying she needed toilet roll as well. If i trundle in with 4 ply she'll complain it blocks the toilet, if i come in with tracing paper i'll be sent back out to rake the shops for "normal" shit tickets. She wants 12 packets of skips as well.

Are the Skips essentially 'aftercare' if the wiping goes bad ? 

[phart]

1 hour ago, Jim Beem said:

Are the Skips essentially 'aftercare' if the wiping goes bad ? 

She eats them for her breakfast! She has got to almost 93 so hard to point out might not be the best breakfast these days. Well easy to point out but she'll not listen, a trait she has passed onto me.

[Clyde1998]

7 hours ago, Shaundy said:

Someone mentioned those who aren’t following restrictions. Seems to me that some places have long given up on any attempt to restrict social closeness. 
Here in Anglia most folk are out and about as normal . Thousands in Jesus Green yesterday enjoying the live music being played , zero plod . Punting packing the river . 
This is , as it all is , a case of who you are perceived to be by the state . Do as you’re telt ya fek in plebs. 

This.

On a personal note, because I've got various health issues that mean I can't be certain my immune system will cope with the virus, should I get it, I've been very wary of going outside.

I was able to go on our pre-planned family holiday in July, the first week after lockdown, in the middle of a large woodland in Somerset, which meant we could easily social distance while staying there and workout things that would be safe to do. We went to two restaurants, one where the staff were only sanitising their hands and having guests spread apart and one where the staff were all wearing masks and visors, screens at the bar, had spread out guests, they were using single use boxes for food, they were cooking the food outside to minimise the risk to their chefs and had one way systems in place. For both, we deliberately booked times when it would be quiet, so I don't know what the places were like when it got busy; the former could've been a breading ground. You could already see that some people/businesses would do the barest they could get a way with.

Since then, I've only been out for walks at night (11pm to 5am), wearing a mask, maybe eight-to-ten in total in that time (four of them this past week), as I know no-one around. That's until today when I went to take a look at the building and their procedures for a work experience/training programme with a charity I'd be interested in doing to ensure I'm comfortable. I did go into a shop also, with a family member, for the first time since March as it was quiet inside and they were forcing people to wear masks and sanitise on entry; I was told by others some supermarkets ended their safety procedures as soon as lockdown ended in my area.

The reason for basically locking myself down is the amount of people I've seen out the window, on social media and on the news not bothering to following guidelines and acting as if everything was back to normal and I, personally, can't risk that. Based on the data, the most likely age group to not be following the guidelines is my own (although that's not exclusive). Even before locking myself down, I was still doing as much as I could reasonably do for my own safety and common courtesy; I don't want to be responsible for passing the virus on to anyone else and causing them issues.

Since the end of lockdown (particularly as more and more people have flouted the guidelines), my weight has dropped sharply (from an already low base) and that's caused worsening issues to my health elsewhere. The periods I've tended to eat more in the past few years have been when I'm doing things, as it makes me more hungry and it raises my mood.

On a wider level, I think this situation exposes a culture in the country at its rawest: too many people have decided that as long as I'm okay, everyone else will be okay. At the end of the day, the people who decided it didn't affect them will be the first people to complain about the additional restrictions, when they were likely the people who have helped cause the second wave. Not enough people care about the well being of others to think about their own actions in a greater context and people who have been protesting about restrictions are as big a culprit as any.

We also have a UK government more interested in the economy than people's welfare. I'm almost certain the 'eat out' scheme is a factor in the rise (when the scheme could've easily been for carry outs and deliveries instead); not requiring shops/pubs/restaurants to have adequate protections is another, as is the encouragement (or economic requirement) for people to return to their workplace, which may or may not have appropriate safety and may require public transport to get to. Their guidelines have been very vague in most areas too.

The net result of certain people's actions is we're going to be in a restricted environment for much longer than we may have otherwise been if people had followed the guidelines in the first place and if those guidelines were made much clearer.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Clyde1998

[ThistleWhistle]

3 hours ago, phart said:

fuck my gran was on the phone saying she needed toilet roll as well. If i trundle in with 4 ply she'll complain it blocks the toilet, if i come in with tracing paper i'll be sent back out to rake the shops for "normal" shit tickets. She wants 12 packets of skips as well.

May I respectfully suggest adding hand wash/ sanitiser to the shopping list

[Jim Beem]

3 hours ago, phart said:

She eats them for her breakfast! She has got to almost 93 so hard to point out might not be the best breakfast these days. Well easy to point out but she'll not listen, a trait she has passed onto me.

They're arguably a Kind of seafood so she could be onto something. 

[fringo]

1 hour ago, ThistleWhistle said:

May I respectfully suggest adding hand wash/ sanitiser to the shopping list

😃

[phart]

2 hours ago, ThistleWhistle said:

May I respectfully suggest adding hand wash/ sanitiser to the shopping list

🤣

[phart]

2 hours ago, Clyde1998 said:

This.

On a personal note, because I've got various health issues that mean I can't be certain my immune system will cope with the virus, should I get it, I've been very wary of going outside.

I was able to go on our pre-planned family holiday in July, the first week after lockdown, in the middle of a large woodland in Somerset, which meant we could easily social distance while staying there and workout things that would be safe to do. We went to two restaurants, one where the staff were only sanitising their hands and having guests spread apart and one where the staff were all wearing masks and visors, screens at the bar, had spread out guests, they were using single use boxes for food, they were cooking the food outside to minimise the risk to their chefs and had one way systems in place. For both, we deliberately booked times when it would be quiet, so I don't know what the places were like when it got busy; the former could've been a breading ground. You could already see that some people/businesses would do the barest they could get a way with.

Since then, I've only been out for walks at night (11pm to 5am), wearing a mask, maybe eight-to-ten in total in that time (four of them this past week), as I know no-one around. That's until today when I went to take a look at the building and their procedures for a work experience/training programme with a charity I'd be interested in doing to ensure I'm comfortable. I did go into a shop also, with a family member, for the first time since March as it was quiet inside and they were forcing people to wear masks and sanitise on entry; I was told by others some supermarkets ended their safety procedures as soon as lockdown ended in my area.

The reason for basically locking myself down is the amount of people I've seen out the window, on social media and on the news not bothering to following guidelines and acting as if everything was back to normal and I, personally, can't risk that. Based on the data, the most likely age group to not be following the guidelines is my own (although that's not exclusive). Even before locking myself down, I was still doing as much as I could reasonably do for my own safety and common courtesy; I don't want to be responsible for passing the virus on to anyone else and causing them issues.

Since the end of lockdown (particularly as more and more people have flouted the guidelines), my weight has dropped sharply (from an already low base) and that's caused worsening issues to my health elsewhere. The periods I've tended to eat more in the past few years have been when I'm doing things, as it makes me more hungry and it raises my mood.

On a wider level, I think this situation exposes a culture in the country at its rawest: too many people have decided that as long as I'm okay, everyone else will be okay. At the end of the day, the people who decided it didn't affect them will be the first people to complain about the additional restrictions, when they were likely the people who have helped cause the second wave. Not enough people care about the well being of others to think about their own actions in a greater context and people who have been protesting about restrictions are as big a culprit as any.

We also have a UK government more interested in the economy than people's welfare. I'm almost certain the 'eat out' scheme is a factor in the rise (when the scheme could've easily been for carry outs and deliveries instead); not requiring shops/pubs/restaurants to have adequate protections is another, as is the encouragement (or economic requirement) for people to return to their workplace, which may or may not have appropriate safety and may require public transport to get to. Their guidelines have been very vague in most areas too.

The net result of certain people's actions is we're going to be in a restricted environment for much longer than we may have otherwise been if people had followed the guidelines in the first place and if those guidelines were made much clearer.

That's a poignant post mate.

I hope things progress better for you. I've been extremely anxious too knowing if i get it i will most likely give it to my gran and then we're rolling the dice.

It's frustrating as hell, watching how the goverment has handled this and the spectrum of people just not interested in "doing their bit".

 

[hampden_loon2878]

These lockdoon measures are very simple, If folk want to have Xmas withoot a lockdown then they need to understand the reasons behind the measures announced today. The economy fragile and they Need Xmas to happen because up 70% of retail income happens during that two month period. No Xmas even more damage to economy  

[Toepoke]

7 hours ago, phart said:

She eats them for her breakfast! She has got to almost 93 so hard to point out might not be the best breakfast these days. Well easy to point out but she'll not listen, a trait she has passed onto me.

Not listening, or eating Skips for breakfast?

 

[ThistleWhistle]

Thought this was pretty interesting:

Sir Patrick did point out the 50,000 figure was not a prediction. But it was used in the knowledge it would grab the headlines.

Why? One person close to the decision-making told me it was about influencing behaviour - to try to persuade the public to redouble its efforts

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54255635

 

That projection is miles off where Spain and Italy are but reading between the lines loads of folk have thought 'f**k it!' since Dom went Durham.  

It's a bit 'Ministry of Truth' for my liking though when the scientist is bullshitting people to scare them back into line.   

[phart]

25 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

Thought this was pretty interesting:

Sir Patrick did point out the 50,000 figure was not a prediction. But it was used in the knowledge it would grab the headlines.

Why? One person close to the decision-making told me it was about influencing behaviour - to try to persuade the public to redouble its efforts

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54255635

 

That projection is miles off where Spain and Italy are but reading between the lines loads of folk have thought 'f**k it!' since Dom went Durham.  

It's a bit 'Ministry of Truth' for my liking though when the scientist is bullshitting people to scare them back into line.   

Independent SAGE do a weekly broadcast and they used 3 separate studies to show where the doubling rate of 7/8 days came from. We also had probably 100,000 cases a day in March.

I don't think the government is listening to the science at all, so the decision maker probably isn't even a scientist.

It's right at the start here. need to wind it back can't stop it starting at 2:11 for some reason.

 

Edited September 23, 2020 by phart

[McDange]

25 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

Thought this was pretty interesting:

Sir Patrick did point out the 50,000 figure was not a prediction. But it was used in the knowledge it would grab the headlines.

Why? One person close to the decision-making told me it was about influencing behaviour - to try to persuade the public to redouble its efforts

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54255635

 

That projection is miles off where Spain and Italy are but reading between the lines loads of folk have thought 'f**k it!' since Dom went Durham.  

It's a bit 'Ministry of Truth' for my liking though when the scientist is bullshitting people to scare them back into line.   

There was a guy called Joseph that was kicking around Germany the first half of the 20th Century that used to come out with stuff like that. 

[phart]

Also this graph has Spain at under 10k cases halfway through October.Yet the Joh Hopkins has them reporting over 10k cases the last 3 days. World of meters has them over 10k as well.

Maybe it's the 14 day day average or something. But it does say daily reported cases.

EDIT: Scrap that it's at the SAME RATE not talking about actual numbers just the same rate of increase, problem is my English not their maths

 

Edited September 23, 2020 by phart

[phart]

486 new cases at 7.8% positive rate.

[phart]

That's another huge RCT HCQ just went into pre-print.

 

[hampden_loon2878]

It never fails to amaze me how fickle the general public are, sturgeon honeymoon covid spell seems over 

[Eisegerwind]

Tried to logout on my phone but couldn't.

So, it's all getting a bit silly isn't it.

[phart]

 

[ThistleWhistle]

Not sure if he's being set up as a fall guy but Vallance not declaring his £650k shares left from his time at GSK is getting an airing as a fairly obvious conflict of interest.  Additionally GSK have offices/ facilities at Barnard Castle.  

[phart]

11 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

Not sure if he's being set up as a fall guy but Vallance not declaring his £650k shares left from his time at GSK is getting an airing as a fairly obvious conflict of interest.  Additionally GSK have offices/ facilities at Barnard Castle.  

One of the scientists i follow has stated it was a clear COI.

• 465 new cases of COVID-19 reported; this is 7.9% of newly tested individuals.

[ThistleWhistle]

18 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

It never fails to amaze me how fickle the general public are, sturgeon honeymoon covid spell seems over 

Think Rishi Sunak is about to find this too after the Numberwang attempt to replace furlough.  Staff need to work 33% of their usual hours to qualify then the remaining 67% is split equally between employer, government and the employee losing out.  How in industries like hospitality where they're on their arse are they going to afford paying about time and a half for staff with revenue through the floor?   

[PapofGlencoe]

I'm not sure what I think about this anymore.  I want to know more about the decision making.  Is it worth locking down the population for another 6-12 months(unspecified time) for a virus that seems to have a death rate similar to many other fatal causes both economic and corporal?  Most countries seem to have decided, to some extent or another, the answer is yes.  But why?  Is there an acceptable timeframe for a vaccine?  Are the long term effects of survivors so evil and likely that protecting ourselves is the only righteous act?  Are we doing it to flatten the curve for NHS capacity?  Or are we trying to eradicate it?  Is that even possible?   

Have we got ourselves locked into a singular way of thinking that this virus dictates everything when a more realistic view is needed?

I want to save lives period.  However surely there comes a point when we need to live them in the world we're dealt?

I take the whole thing very seriously and abide by the rules but I'd like more answers.  Can't be doing with those advocating lockdown forever or those flagrantly breaking rules.

If it was a new Black Death I would be a taking a different attitude and lockdown for a long time would undoubtedly be correct but the obvious fact remains: the vast, vast majority have mild symptoms.  I'm more than willing to be convinced either way but I have a feeling governments have got themselves in a political bind where any death is a call to lockdown when that cannot be for a virus that rarely kills.  

I'm not there yet but I'm coming round to the view that shielding the vulnerable and getting back to a semblance of normality for the rest will need to be seriously considered.  This is called unethical, immoral by Sturgeon - i'd rather hear more facts than a sermon.  I care deeply about the vulnerable too.  Fairness in life cuts both ways.  Stopping young people from living their lives is also unethical unless solid reasons are given.  That's all I'm asking.

PS I think Nicola Sturgeon comes across as very compassionate and is obviously doing a power of work.  I don't envy her.  The above isn't a criticims per se of her or any leader.  Just want answers.

[phart]

None of the experts are advocating lockdown though, it's just cause the Tories privatised it(testing) and made an absolute arse of organising it (see Baroness Dido) that we're even in this position.

Get track and trace working. Get facilities for folk to quarantine properly away from families. Have an actual robust economic package to support the businesses that exist in high-risk stuff.

This message has been the same since March. Can go back to page 30 or something of this thread and it's been talked about.

I can understand folks frustration at how poorly it's been handled. It's been a shit show.

Loads of long covid sufferers as well, thousands upon thousands need to take that into account with regards to letting outbreaks just occur.

The only alternative to more restrictions and modifying our own behaviour is a functioning test-and-trace system. Lockdown just presses pause on the spread of the virus. Once restrictions are lifted and governments have pressed play, it will start spreading again. The key objective of lockdown should be to carry out mass testing and tracing in order to aggressively seek out and eliminate community transmission of the virus (like China, Taiwan, Vietnam, New Zealand and South Korea have done). This also buys time for science to develop solutions (such as dexamethasone), and to build healthcare capacity. Simply to lock down for two weeks would be less effective: it is kicking the can down the road.

Nine months after South Korea and Senegal started building diagnostic capacity, it is comically depressing that the UK government, one of the richest in the world, does not have a functional testing system that returns results within 24 hours. In addition, given that we know the virus spreads easily through households, those who test positive should have the offer to isolate in external facilities (such as hotels). The “14-day isolation” measures for people entering the UK are also a box-ticking exercise where given the lack of screening or monitoring, a constant stream of infections keep coming into the country. It’s like trying to empty a bucket under a tap.

Edited September 24, 2020 by phart

[phart]