Coronavirus

[ParisInAKilt]

He’s right about the virtue signalling though, most of the nurses I know aren’t working with any covid patients but you’d think are on the front line the way they bang on about it on social media. 

[Alan]

28 minutes ago, Lairdyfaeinverclyde said:

Calm down. All will be ok because the saviour of the country Matt Hancock is giving me a badge. Fuckin embarrassing. How you can support that arsehole say's a lot about you.

Where does it say I support him?  More importantly..... He. Is. Not. My. Health. Secretary.

Surprise!  It's devolved!!  

Every country in the world is battling with this horrible dreadful virus.  It's 2 steps forwards. 1 step back.  Sometimes the other way round.  And it will be like this for 12 months easy. Peaks and troughs for everyone.  

[Ally Bongo]

https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/16/uk-spent-16000000-coronavirus-tests-didnt-work-12567736/

 

Edited April 18, 2020 by Ally Bongo

[86glebestreet]

On 4/16/2020 at 11:55 PM, Ally Bongo said:

 

Gathering in somewhere in fife as well 

[exile]

1 hour ago, Alan said:

Where does it say I support him?  More importantly..... He. Is. Not. My. Health. Secretary.

Surprise!  It's devolved!!  

 

Broadcasting is not devolved. We continuously get news from "national" broadcasters, telling us what's happening in "the country" most often meaning England only, often where the speakers (with Union Jacks behind them) themselves do not distinguish if they are talking about England or the whole UK. Meanwhile those same broadcasters do not give same prominence to the devolved governments or their press conferences. Our "national" broadcasters continually mix up issues and problems whether thay are in Scotland or rest of UK, they quote numbers/statistics about coronavirus cases or deaths whether or not they are including care homes or not... No wonder there is confusion.  

[Och Aye]

1 hour ago, Ally Bongo said:

https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/16/uk-spent-16000000-coronavirus-tests-didnt-work-12567736/

 

Captain Tom getting his walking frame back out. 

[86glebestreet]

17 minutes ago, Och Aye said:

Captain Tom getting his walking frame back out. 

The DWP says he is fit for work 

[Och Aye]

Just got a text from a nurse I know saying they're testing patients who clearly have the virus but it's taking 2 or 3 attempts to get a positive result. 

[aaid]

1 hour ago, exile said:

Broadcasting is not devolved. We continuously get news from "national" broadcasters, telling us what's happening in "the country" most often meaning England only, often where the speakers (with Union Jacks behind them) themselves do not distinguish if they are talking about England or the whole UK. Meanwhile those same broadcasters do not give same prominence to the devolved governments or their press conferences. Our "national" broadcasters continually mix up issues and problems whether thay are in Scotland or rest of UK, they quote numbers/statistics about coronavirus cases or deaths whether or not they are including care homes or not... No wonder there is confusion.  

The BBC have been covering the daily updates from the FM on BBC One, BBC Scotland and Radio Scotland so I'm not sure where you get the idea they're not giving them any prominences and then whatever's gone on in those is generally the lead item on Reporting Scotland that evening.

The BBC has a structural problem that makes it difficult to separate out English-only content from the UK "national" News programmes.  Simply put, there is no BBC Reporting England, in the same way there's no English Parliament.   In general, I think they're doing a fair job of covering it although I could do without all the human interest stories on the evening news.   

The Scottish and UK governments are also quoting the same figures.   The daily figure in both cases is only confirmed cases from hospitals.

One thing I think all broadcasters and press are getting wrong is that they're treating this as a political story rather than a public health one.   I guess that's because it's politicians who are being interviewed and who are leading the press conferences.   I think if it were led by Health or Science correspondents then maybe they'd ask more in portent questions and would understand the answers.

It still amazes me the number of journalists, opposition politicians and amateur epidemiologists who don't understand the benefits and limitations of the tests currently available for the virus  

 

[TDYER63]

3 step exit strategy.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.buzzfeed.com/amphtml/alexwickham/coronavirus-uk-lockdown-three-stage-exit-plan

• A “best case scenario” being worked on by the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE) hopes to end lockdown restrictions for certain non-essential shops and industries in the short-term, from early to mid-May.

• Some social distancing measures could then gradually be relaxed in the medium-term, in June and July, eventually leading to the reopening of pubs and restaurants towards the end of the summer.

• Long-term “shielding” for elderly and vulnerable people could mean the public being told they face limits on seeing over-70s parents or grandparents for as long as 12-18 months until a vaccine is found.

• The timeline relies on SAGE scientists calculating how many new COVID-19 infections per day the UK’s test and trace capabilities can manage, and an “impossible” political decision for Downing Street on how many deaths per day they are willing to accept in order to be able to lift some restrictions before there is a vaccine.

[aaid]

4 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

3 step exit strategy.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.buzzfeed.com/amphtml/alexwickham/coronavirus-uk-lockdown-three-stage-exit-plan

• A “best case scenario” being worked on by the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE) hopes to end lockdown restrictions for certain non-essential shops and industries in the short-term, from early to mid-May.

• Some social distancing measures could then gradually be relaxed in the medium-term, in June and July, eventually leading to the reopening of pubs and restaurants towards the end of the summer.

• Long-term “shielding” for elderly and vulnerable people could mean the public being told they face limits on seeing over-70s parents or grandparents for as long as 12-18 months until a vaccine is found.

• The timeline relies on SAGE scientists calculating how many new COVID-19 infections per day the UK’s test and trace capabilities can manage, and an “impossible” political decision for Downing Street on how many deaths per day they are willing to accept in order to be able to lift some restrictions before there is a vaccine.

One major difference between the Scottish and UK governments though has been the absolute lack of unattributed briefings from "senior sources" coming from Holyrood as opposed to Westminster.

These really don't help at all.   What they're doing is to trail what they are currently thinking to see what the reaction is so that if it goes down badly they can quietly ditch it without any comeback.

However, this only serves to add to the confusion.  What's needed is clear, concise and on the record information and guidance from those in charge.

[exile]

20 minutes ago, aaid said:

The BBC have been covering the daily updates from the FM on BBC One, BBC Scotland and Radio Scotland so I'm not sure where you get the idea they're not giving them any prominences and then whatever's gone on in those is generally the lead item on Reporting Scotland that evening.

The BBC has a structural problem that makes it difficult to separate out English-only content from the UK "national" News programmes.  Simply put, there is no BBC Reporting England, in the same way there's no English Parliament.   In general, I think they're doing a fair job of covering it although I could do without all the human interest stories on the evening news.   

The Scottish and UK governments are also quoting the same figures.   The daily figure in both cases is only confirmed cases from hospitals.

 

I didn't say they weren't giving any prominence, I said not the same prominence. For a start the UK national reports - which are the absolute prime 'national' news bulletins beamed into Scotland - are often in fact England-only - mostly do not differentiate what they are talking about, and which 'nation' they are referring to, and even Scottish broadcasts sometmes talk of 'the government' ambiguously or bring in the UK perspective elswhere in the programme (thinking of the Nine) potentially muddying the waters. 

I didn't know the daily figures were exactly corresponding - being only hospital deaths - the point is that figures as so often routinely confused, between which country or what data are being referred to, that even if/when the figures are consistent, you can't be sure. 

[aaid]

2 minutes ago, exile said:

I didn't say they weren't giving any prominence, I said not the same prominence. For a start the UK national reports - which are the absolute prime 'national' news bulletins beamed into Scotland - are often in fact England-only - mostly do not differentiate what they are talking about, and which 'nation' they are referring to, and even Scottish broadcasts sometmes talk of 'the government' ambiguously or bring in the UK perspective elswhere in the programme (thinking of the Nine) potentially muddying the waters. 

I didn't know the daily figures were exactly corresponding - being only hospital deaths - the point is that figures as so often routinely confused, between which country or what data are being referred to, that even if/when the figures are consistent, you can't be sure. 

The "National" six o'clock or 10 o'clock news not differentiating between UK and English content is a standard problem and is not specific to Coronavirus.   However, I just see that as being a function of the general constitutional settlement and not really something that could be resolved without, well, independence   What I do find objectionable is when the Scottish specific programmes, e.g. Reporting Scotland do that and I haven't seen any evidence of that wrt Coronavirus.   The Nine is designed to be a different sort of program, its not supposed to just be about news in Scotland but news that is relevant to or of interest to people in Scotland.   That means they cover a lot of foreign stories, that also means they will also cover stories from England as well, but it is supposed to have a Scottish slant.

AFAIK, all countries have been reporting the same basic daily data, deaths in hospital where Coronavirus has been confirmed.    Put bluntly, every hospital will know how many people they have who have confirmed infection and they will know on a daily basis how many have sadly died.  Central reporting of that is fairly straightforwards as all that is required is for hospitals to report that number daily and then for that to be collated.

For deaths outwith hospitals it is more difficult and so they are reliant on an analysis of death certificates.  In itself that's not a problem but there's a lag between a death occurring and the certificate being registered - deaths have to be registered within 8 days.    In Scotland, they seem to be further ahead in this than England, they are publishing more accurate data.

The problem - and one which most journalists don't seem to grasp - is that it you can have up-to-date data but it will be incomplete or you can have complete and accurate data but it will be out of date, you can't have both.

[TDYER63]

25 minutes ago, aaid said:

One major difference between the Scottish and UK governments though has been the absolute lack of unattributed briefings from "senior sources" coming from Holyrood as opposed to Westminster.

These really don't help at all.   What they're doing is to trail what they are currently thinking to see what the reaction is so that if it goes down badly they can quietly ditch it without any comeback.

However, this only serves to add to the confusion.  What's needed is clear, concise and on the record information and guidance from those in charge.

I agree. ‘’sources with direct knowledge of the plan told BuzzFeed News.’’ means only one thing, the leak is deliberate. 

Pubs and restaurants not opening till the end of the summer will be unpopular enough,  but there’s no way the public will accept not seeing their elderly family for 12-18 months. That is more likely to kill a lot of them than Covid 19. 

 

[Alan]

@exile what problems and issues are different between Scotland and rUK? I'd assume London could impact stats as it's a global diverse metropolis with a lot of people living on top of each other. A younger population and a larger BAME population are also distinct.  However after 2 weeks of avoiding tv news as it was genuinely stressing me out I watched Dominic Raab and the 2 medical experts on BBC on Friday and it had stats from different countries and regions of UK. Jason Leitch is always very calming.  Sturgeon is good in press briefings.  They are all saying the same thing, taking advice from same group of people and all the same problems exist here and everywhere.

1. Not enough PPE

2. Care Homes practically abandoned.

3. Lack of understanding of the virus.

4. Tests not conclusive

5. Reliance on China (the bastards) for good

6. Economic armageddon

[Orraloon]

5 hours ago, Alan said:

Where does it say I support him?  More importantly..... He. Is. Not. My. Health. Secretary.

Surprise!  It's devolved!!  

Every country in the world is battling with this horrible dreadful virus.  It's 2 steps forwards. 1 step back.  Sometimes the other way round.  And it will be like this for 12 months easy. Peaks and troughs for everyone.  

And some aresholes want to turn it into a game of petty politics.

 

[exile]

1 hour ago, Alan said:

@exile what problems and issues are different between Scotland and rUK? I'd assume London could impact stats as it's a global diverse metropolis with a lot of people living on top of each other. A younger population and a larger BAME population are also distinct.  However after 2 weeks of avoiding tv news as it was genuinely stressing me out I watched Dominic Raab and the 2 medical experts on BBC on Friday and it had stats from different countries and regions of UK. Jason Leitch is always very calming.  Sturgeon is good in press briefings.  They are all saying the same thing, taking advice from same group of people and all the same problems exist here and everywhere.

1. Not enough PPE

2. Care Homes practically abandoned.

3. Lack of understanding of the virus.

4. Tests not conclusive

5. Reliance on China (the bastards) for good

6. Economic armageddon

(Some interesting points here and above, but I don't have time to answer them all now/today.)

My basic point was in the context that you were saying:

Quote

"Over 20 years of devolution and it's staggering the majority of people do not understand that Health, Social Care, Local government, Police, Prisons etc are all under the authority, control, planning and funding of Holyrood."

And you yourself were protesting "He. Is. Not. My. Health. Secretary."

As if you wished to highlight the distinctions between health administrations, schemes, messages, etc.

I was simply suggesting that broadcasting is part of the problem, because they way "national" news is broadcast adds to confusion of messaging. It's surely not so suprising, if daily broadcasts into people's homes saying things like "the government is ordering people to stay indoors unless...", "the governement is facing calls for" or "NHS in crisis as PPE is running out" that people get confused if that is referring to England, Scotland or the whole UK.

 

Moving on, I think this point

Quote

They are all saying the same thing, taking advice from same group of people and all the same problems exist here and everywhere.

could be seen as a mixed blessing, as it seems UK approach has differed from WHO and other countries' actions, at least in the initial stage (herd immunity etc), so while I agree the virus itself seems to be the same and causing the same problems everywhere, the UK approach has differed from other countries, and that is potentially problematic. But that's a debate for another day.

 

 

 

[Eisegerwind]

4 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

3 step exit strategy.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.buzzfeed.com/amphtml/alexwickham/coronavirus-uk-lockdown-three-stage-exit-plan

• A “best case scenario” being worked on by the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE) hopes to end lockdown restrictions for certain non-essential shops and industries in the short-term, from early to mid-May.

• Some social distancing measures could then gradually be relaxed in the medium-term, in June and July, eventually leading to the reopening of pubs and restaurants towards the end of the summer.

• Long-term “shielding” for elderly and vulnerable people could mean the public being told they face limits on seeing over-70s parents or grandparents for as long as 12-18 months until a vaccine is found.

• The timeline relies on SAGE scientists calculating how many new COVID-19 infections per day the UK’s test and trace capabilities can manage, and an “impossible” political decision for Downing Street on how many deaths per day they are willing to accept in order to be able to lift some restrictions before there is a vaccine.

Not impossible, difficult maybe, based on the science, anyone like to pick a number (yes, before anyone says, I know it's not just a numbers, it's  lives)?

 

[ThistleWhistle]

The absolute state of this - how is he confident enough to state he's more believable than someone with a camera:

 

[thplinth]

On 4/17/2020 at 12:55 AM, Ally Bongo said:

 

I used to walk over Blackfriars bridge twice a day during rush hour (in the 90's) and it was never usually as busy as that.

Was this some prearranged thing to applaud the NHS?

All these folk with their babies... WTF.

Schizo stuff really.

[phart]

43 minutes ago, thplinth said:

I used to walk over Blackfriars bridge twice a day during rush hour (in the 90's) and it was never usually as busy as that.

Was this some prearranged thing to applaud the NHS?

All these folk with their babies... WTF.

Schizo stuff really.

Cresinda Dick was there. Or i saw Cresinda Dick clapping in a mobbed place elsewhere.

EDIT: went and checked she was there, seems the video was taken by an incredulous doctor who works in a hospital next to the bridge.

Edited April 18, 2020 by phart

[aaid]

16 minutes ago, phart said:

Cresinda Dick was there. Or i saw Cresinda Dick clapping in a mobbed place elsewhere.

EDIT: went and checked she was there, seems the video was taken by an incredulous doctor who works in a hospital next to the bridge.

That'll be St Thomas's, the very hospital that Boris Johnson was in.  

[Eisegerwind]

6 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

3 step exit strategy.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.buzzfeed.com/amphtml/alexwickham/coronavirus-uk-lockdown-three-stage-exit-plan

• A “best case scenario” being worked on by the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE) hopes to end lockdown restrictions for certain non-essential shops and industries in the short-term, from early to mid-May.

• Some social distancing measures could then gradually be relaxed in the medium-term, in June and July, eventually leading to the reopening of pubs and restaurants towards the end of the summer.

• Long-term “shielding” for elderly and vulnerable people could mean the public being told they face limits on seeing over-70s parents or grandparents for as long as 12-18 months until a vaccine is found.

• The timeline relies on SAGE scientists calculating how many new COVID-19 infections per day the UK’s test and trace capabilities can manage, and an “impossible” political decision for Downing Street on how many deaths per day they are willing to accept in order to be able to lift some restrictions before there is a vaccine.

 

2 hours ago, Eisegerwind said:

Not impossible, difficult maybe, based on the science, anyone like to pick a number (yes, before anyone says, I know it's not just a numbers, it's  lives)?

 

Was hoping some of the the forum big brains could come on in this, but they seem more preoccupied with clapping. Anyway, 60.

[Farcity]

20 minutes ago, Eisegerwind said:

 

Was hoping some of the the forum big brains could come on in this, but they seem more preoccupied with clapping. Anyway, 60.

Im busy just now, I'll produce my analysis later. 

[Eisegerwind]

Cool.