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Moving forward, what should be our system in defence?


The_Dark_Knight

Defensive system going forward  

21 members have voted

  1. 1. What should be our defensive system?

    • Three/Five at the back
    • Four at the back


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3 hours ago, Taylor1996 said:

This is a telling statistic:

12.5% of this board wanted our current system of 3/5 at the back. (Which has propelled up to top of our Nations League group and within one match from Euro 2020.

87.5% of this board wanted the system that has failed us in the past: 4-4-2. The system that failed for 18 years and 9 qualification campaigns.

If we kept the template that Craig Brown left behind, the likes of Barry Ferguson, Darren Fletcher, James McFadden would have qualified for a tournament.

Who's laughing now?

There was 16 votes. It's hardly a reliable source. 

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4 hours ago, Taylor1996 said:

This is a telling statistic:

12.5% of this board wanted our current system of 3/5 at the back. (Which has propelled up to top of our Nations League group and within one match from Euro 2020.

87.5% of this board wanted the system that has failed us in the past: 4-4-2. The system that failed for 18 years and 9 qualification campaigns.

If we kept the template that Craig Brown left behind, the likes of Barry Ferguson, Darren Fletcher, James McFadden would have qualified for a tournament.

Who's laughing now?

Everyone is at you. 

Please stop ruining this board with your nonsense. 

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6 minutes ago, ProudScot said:

Everyone is at you. 

Please stop ruining this board with your nonsense. 

😂😂😂😂😂😂

Laugh it off mate. Scotland are on form, its a unique time for a generation of fans and we should enjoy every minute.

Chripper can revel in his own glory, he can hold his head up high knowing that he alone came up with 3 at the back and guided scotland to the play off and top of the nations league group.😂😂

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42 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

😂😂😂😂😂😂

Laugh it off mate. Scotland are on form, its a unique time for a generation of fans and we should enjoy every minute.

Chripper can revel in his own glory, he can hold his head up high knowing that he alone came up with 3 at the back and guided scotland to the play off and top of the nations league group.😂😂


 

😂😂😂😂   I’m waiting for the post when we get murdered 4-0, playing 5 at the back....

 

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5 hours ago, PASTA Mick said:

There was 16 votes. It's hardly a reliable source. 

They are statistics. 14 out of 16 people.

If the voting numbers were higher it would've still have been roughly in the high 80s. I think if everyone voted it would've probably increased to the 90s, to be honest.

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1 minute ago, Taylor1996 said:

You're wanting us to get beat 4-0?

No need. Happened back to back last year against Russia and Belgium. Not with a back three.

 

Of course I don't want that to happen!  But I'm saying that your faith in the formation is misplaced.  We are playing well, and yes we are playing with a back 5 but the two are not necessarily directly related.   

Look, I am glad for you after all your beating on that we happen to be doing well and it so happens that we are currently playing a 5.  WE look organised.  If we lose 4-0 will you say it was due to the formation, or maybe that we were outplayed!?  

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

 

Of course I don't want that to happen!  But I'm saying that your faith in the formation is misplaced.  We are playing well, and yes we are playing with a back 5 but the two are not necessarily directly related.   

Look, I am glad for you after all your beating on that we happen to be doing well and it so happens that we are currently playing a 5.  WE look organised.  If we lose 4-0 will you say it was due to the formation, or maybe that we were outplayed!?  

 

 

No. We aren't playing well, at all.  We will, though. We're keeping our shape well, and that's because of the system we're now playing and because the players are learning it. It's no coincidence that our upturn has coincided with a change in system. There's a reason our previous three managers have all tried a three.

I'd say that it was an off-night. And, no doubt that it will happen, as it's football.

I just found it hilarious how people were justifying not playing a three by pointing to a single match (the Israel match in 2018). Football isn't complex. Football is won and lost in the middle. Under past regimes we've have 6 through the middle. Now it's 8.

Edited by Taylor1996
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Ultimately 5 at the back looks like the correct system going forward so well done for spotting it earlier than most.

 

For me the reason it has successfully worked so far under Clarke but was a monumental failure under McLeish comes down to both the tactical knowledge of the manager and the players deployed.

 

McLeish for being a defender has not been famed for overly strong defensive sides bar maybe his Motherwell days. When he deployed his three at the back, he left it unbalanced with McKenna deployed at LCB while the ball playing Mulgrew was stuck in the middle of the three thus expected to do the most defensive job of the three. The performance in Israel was one of the most woefully open defensive displays I've had the "pleasure" of watching in a stadium. The Souttar sending off was the culmination and if it wasn't for Allan McGregor, we'd have been buried 5-1.

 

Compare that to now where Clarke has players drilled in with all the knowledge they need to play solidly. He identified the need for the more ball playing defenders to be the ones playing each side of the three while allowing McKenna and Gallagher to just defend in the middle of the three. The wing backs were significantly defensively more disciplined while offering some help to the attack.

 

Any formation relies on a good manager to deploy it correctly and that is where Clarke is succeeding in comparison to McLeish.

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On 10/15/2020 at 10:26 PM, BucksburnDandy said:

Ultimately 5 at the back looks like the correct system going forward so well done for spotting it earlier than most.

 

For me the reason it has successfully worked so far under Clarke but was a monumental failure under McLeish comes down to both the tactical knowledge of the manager and the players deployed.

 

McLeish for being a defender has not been famed for overly strong defensive sides bar maybe his Motherwell days. When he deployed his three at the back, he left it unbalanced with McKenna deployed at LCB while the ball playing Mulgrew was stuck in the middle of the three thus expected to do the most defensive job of the three. The performance in Israel was one of the most woefully open defensive displays I've had the "pleasure" of watching in a stadium. The Souttar sending off was the culmination and if it wasn't for Allan McGregor, we'd have been buried 5-1.

 

Compare that to now where Clarke has players drilled in with all the knowledge they need to play solidly. He identified the need for the more ball playing defenders to be the ones playing each side of the three while allowing McKenna and Gallagher to just defend in the middle of the three. The wing backs were significantly defensively more disciplined while offering some help to the attack.

 

Any formation relies on a good manager to deploy it correctly and that is where Clarke is succeeding in comparison to McLeish.

If Strachan stuck with it (not that he had much of a reason to ditch it. Going within seconds of beating England should've been reason enough to keep it going)) I think the results as well as the performances would've improved.

I'm still not sure why McLeish got the job, the second time around. I don't think he was in the mental position to handle it.

Those two flirted with a three, but never stuck with it.

All credit to Steve Clarke for giving it a real chance and sticking with it.

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41 minutes ago, Taylor1996 said:

If Strachan stuck with it (not that he had much of a reason to ditch it. Going within seconds of beating England should've been reason enough to keep it going)) I think the results as well as the performances would've improved.

I'm still not sure why McLeish got the job, the second time around. I don't think he was in the mental position to handle it.

Those two flirted with a three, but never stuck with it.

All credit to Steve Clarke for giving it a real chance and sticking with it.

 

We were largely outplayed by England and would have won a watch if had held on to win 2-1.  McLeish won away in Hungary 1-0 playing a back three (of Mulgrew, souttar and Hendry) and Ryan Fraser and BArry Douglas at  wing back.  Systems, managers, players, confidence are all part of the mix.  We didn't have John McGinn back then but we did have Scott Brown whom I would still pick now if available.  Im happy with the 5-3-2 at the moment.  I am sure Clarke will tweak this as required.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Malcolm said:

 

We were largely outplayed by England and would have won a watch if had held on to win 2-1.  McLeish won away in Hungary 1-0 playing a back three (of Mulgrew, souttar and Hendry) and Ryan Fraser and BArry Douglas at  wing back.  Systems, managers, players, confidence are all part of the mix.  We didn't have John McGinn back then but we did have Scott Brown whom I would still pick now if available.  Im happy with the 5-3-2 at the moment.  I am sure Clarke will tweak this as required.

Scott Brown has been absolutely terrible for his club this year and is now frequently being taken apart by average journeymen he comes up against. He is a player that is finished. And who would you want Brown to replace who from in the current squad ?

If Scott Brown still played for Scotland we'd probably have lost one or more of our recent matches.

And just a couple of weeks ago you were wanting Clarke sacked 

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2 hours ago, ErsatzThistle said:

Scott Brown has been absolutely terrible for his club this year and is now frequently being taken apart by average journeymen he comes up against. He is a player that is finished. And who would you want Brown to replace who from in the current squad ?

If Scott Brown still played for Scotland we'd probably have lost one or more of our recent matches.

And just a couple of weeks ago you were wanting Clarke sacked 


show me where I wanted Clarke sacked?  Very rarely do I call for Scotland managers to go as they have invariably got very little to work with.


yes, brown hasn’t had a great start to the season but he has had poor patches before and comes back.  He is a natural leader in the middle of the park and probably our best player over the last 5-8years. Also, I like his style of play. I disagree we would have lost with him in the team.  I would have brown ahead of McLean and mcgregor when he is in form.  I would play him alongside Ryan jack in a combative midfield.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Malcolm said:


show me where I wanted Clarke sacked?  Very rarely do I call for Scotland managers to go as they have invariably got very little to work with.


yes, brown hasn’t had a great start to the season but he has had poor patches before and comes back.  He is a natural leader in the middle of the park and probably our best player over the last 5-8years. Also, I like his style of play. I disagree we would have lost with him in the team.  I would have brown ahead of McLean and mcgregor when he is in form.  I would play him alongside Ryan jack in a combative midfield.

That and a few other comments you made on that particular thread aren't exactly what I'd expect from someone proudly claiming to have backed the manager.

Admit it you've been caught out. Did you think that nobody knew how to use the search function :lol:

Scott Brown is a dire footballer now. Many of his own club fans would gladly see him moved on or choose to retire. I repeat if we had Scott Brown as a passenger (and that's what he would have been) in our midfield in these last three games, we'd have been very sorry for including him.

We don't need Brown. We don't want him back. Same goes for Snodgrass and Ritchie.

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Our current group of players are limited. There's no getting past that. 

We've had better squads in the previous 18 years.

If we had played 3 at the back for the past 18 years, we would've qualified for several of the 9 tournaments. Players like McFadden, Fletcher and Ferguson were robbed of playing at a major tournaments because they were at the mercy of manager (and fans) who were obsessed with a flat back four.

12.5% of fans wanted to stick with a back four. People can keep voting in this poll, but I've called it.

As I've said many times previous. People here should stop talking and start learning.

Edited by Taylor1996
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5 hours ago, ErsatzThistle said:

That and a few other comments you made on that particular thread aren't exactly what I'd expect from someone proudly claiming to have backed the manager.

Admit it you've been caught out. Did you think that nobody knew how to use the search function :lol:

Scott Brown is a dire footballer now. Many of his own club fans would gladly see him moved on or choose to retire. I repeat if we had Scott Brown as a passenger (and that's what he would have been) in our midfield in these last three games, we'd have been very sorry for including him.

We don't need Brown. We don't want him back. Same goes for Snodgrass and Ritchie.


 

well you are wrong on several counts.  Firstly, That’s not a couple of weeks ago unless you mean 6.  Secondly I’m not calling for him to be sacked, I’m posting in that thread about what I want from our next appointment.  I didn’t want Strachan sacked, I didn’t want McLeish (who in his first spell was our most successful manager in the modern era in terms of wins) sacked either.  I actually searched back myself so knew I hadn’t suggested he be sacked.

When you say ‘we’, you mean in your tiny opinion.  In my opinion we need the bst players available and in my opinion brown would still offer that and is a great captain. Don’t know why you mention Ritchie as I have never mentioned h8m and don’t particularly rate him.  The saddest thing about brown is he never really tested himself by moving to a big club in a big league as he had the capability.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Malcolm said:


 

well you are wrong on several counts.  Firstly, That’s not a couple of weeks ago unless you mean 6.  Secondly I’m not calling for him to be sacked, I’m posting in that thread about what I want from our next appointment.  I didn’t want Strachan sacked, I didn’t want McLeish (who in his first spell was our most successful manager in the modern era in terms of wins) sacked either.  I actually searched back myself so knew I hadn’t suggested he be sacked.

When you say ‘we’, you mean in your tiny opinion.  In my opinion we need the bst players available and in my opinion brown would still offer that and is a great captain. Don’t know why you mention Ritchie as I have never mentioned h8m and don’t particularly rate him.  The saddest thing about brown is he never really tested himself by moving to a big club in a big league as he had the capability.

Getting picky about details and sidestepping the question. You wanted Clarke sacked and are now furiously back peddling after being called out. 

Thankfully, Steve Clarke doesn't share your enthusiasm for bringing back Scott Brown, a once decent but now seriously faded and mediocre player.

I'd prefer any of Calum McGregor, Ryan Jack, Kenny McLean, Lewis Ferguson, Ross McCrorie or Alan Campbell to a spent force living on long past glories such as Scott Brown.

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1 hour ago, ErsatzThistle said:

Getting picky about details and sidestepping the question. You wanted Clarke sacked and are now furiously back peddling after being called out. 

Thankfully, Steve Clarke doesn't share your enthusiasm for bringing back Scott Brown, a once decent but now seriously faded and mediocre player.

I'd prefer any of Calum McGregor, Ryan Jack, Kenny McLean, Lewis Ferguson, Ross McCrorie or Alan Campbell to a spent force living on long past glories such as Scott Brown.

Hold on a minute. The OP of that thread wanted Steve Clarke sacked and went on record by saying that he never wanted him hired in the first place. Go and ask him if he's changed his mind. Or better yet, go and ask the people that agreed with his sentiments. Ask them them all to admit that they were wrong. Might be doing that for a while.

While you're at it, go ask the 87.5% of people (would've been higher if everyone voted) that wanted to stick with the same system that's been a colossal disaster since we began using it in 2001, if they've changed their minds.

The vast majority of people here don't have a clue about football. Instead of shutting up and learning, they'd rather be quippy and try to be funny. (Is Jim White still talking to you? Does he tell you to fo things?)

The majority wanted to ditch our new system, because, shock-horror, we didn't beat Israel 10-0.

For example, this was pretty much the theme when our previous three managers dared to play three at the back:

Yes, our players are so comfortable with a flat back four... In the 80s.

As for Scott Brown, if he wasn't retired, he'd be in the mix. He is, so he isn't. Contrary to popular belief, we don't have good midfielders. They are decent. One of the reasons why we switched to a 3-5-2 is because they are simply not good enough to protect the 2 center backs. 

You can now go back to listening to the Jim White voices in your head.

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2 hours ago, ErsatzThistle said:

Getting picky about details and sidestepping the question. You wanted Clarke sacked and are now furiously back peddling after being called out. 

Thankfully, Steve Clarke doesn't share your enthusiasm for bringing back Scott Brown, a once decent but now seriously faded and mediocre player.

I'd prefer any of Calum McGregor, Ryan Jack, Kenny McLean, Lewis Ferguson, Ross McCrorie or Alan Campbell to a spent force living on long past glories such as Scott Brown.

 

clearly not the case.  I’ve made my views clear many times, clarke would not have been my choice in the first place and would liked to have seen Walter smith get it.  My comments are entirely about who I would want as Scotland manager.  

as for Clarke, I think the jury is out.  Some terrible results and some recent good results, and there will be nobody happier than me if that continues.

i just don’t agree with you about brown, or most things for that matter.

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