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The_Dark_Knight

Moving forward, what should be our system in defence?

Defensive system going forward  

15 members have voted

  1. 1. What should be our defensive system?

    • Three/Five at the back
    • Four at the back


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Over the past couple of days I've been encouraged by how many people want to break free from four at the back and want give a three/five a crack of the whip.

So, going forward, and taking into account our defensive deficiencies, what system should we go forward with?

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39 minutes ago, The_Dark_Knight said:

Over the past couple of days I've been encouraged by how many people want to break free from four at the back and want give a three/five a crack of the whip.

So, going forward, and taking into account our defensive deficiencies, what system should we go forward with?

I think what you have found out this week is that it is totally dependent on the players available. Which is probably not a bad idea.

It would be fair to say that a lot of the people who favour 4 at the back are prepared to adapt depending on on the circumstances, I am not so sure that the same can be said for those who prefer playing with a back 3.

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16 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

I think what you have found out this week is that it is totally dependent on the players available. Which is probably not a bad idea.

It would be fair to say that a lot of the people who favour 4 at the back are prepared to adapt depending on on the circumstances, I am not so sure that the same can be said for those who prefer playing with a back 3.

Yeah. It's a fair point. I considered that.

But when you think of it, which center backs are missing?

I can only think of Souttar. That's not exactly going to make much of a hole in the middle of defence.

McKenna is fit and so's Porteous. In my opinion, Porteous is a better defender than Souttar.

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Liam Cooper is missing and Kieran Tierney is missing for right back. If Tierney isn't available to play right back we just shouldn't play with a right back and play a 3 because the other two are absolute murder.

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4 minutes ago, bazmidd said:

Liam Cooper is missing and Kieran Tierney is missing for right back. If Tierney isn't available to play right back we just shouldn't play with a right back and play a 3 because the other two are absolute murder.

I don't rate Cooper. He's probably of the same standard as Hanley. I take your point about Tierney, but I'm not sure we'll ever be able to depend on him.

A three of Souttar, Porteuos and McKenna would suit me, when everyone's fit.

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When everyone is fit this will be our best team and system.... 

                          Marshall

Tierney     Cooper   McKenna   Robertson

             McTominay  McGregor

 Forrest              McGinn            Fraser

                           Griffiths

....By quite a distance

Its funny because this is near enough the team and system that finished so strongly in Strachans final year in charge but has actually improved and had an upgrade in certain areas. Tierney and Robertson are both outstanding full backs. McGinn, McTominay and Fraser have all come through since then and developed into top quality EPL players to replace Brown, Morrison and Snodgrass. Cooper and McKenna are as good a partnership as the Berra Mulgrew partnership and potentially a lot better than them especially McKenna. The wingers are good and if Griffiths can get back for March then we have a right strong team again

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30 minutes ago, The_Dark_Knight said:

I don't rate Cooper. He's probably of the same standard as Hanley. I take your point about Tierney, but I'm not sure we'll ever be able to depend on him.

A three of Souttar, Porteuos and McKenna would suit me, when everyone's fit.

I do rate Cooper but the fact that we are missing our left back and Tierney as a right back or central defender leaves us with no option other than to play without full backs.

To be honest I'm not sure I even wan't to get decent results here as I have already marked Clarke down as a total idiot since he didn't start Mctominay against Cyprus.

Soggy wall paper and all that.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, bazmidd said:

When everyone is fit this will be our best team and system.... 

                          Marshall

Tierney     Cooper   McKenna   Robertson

             McTominay  McGregor

 Forrest              McGinn            Fraser

                           Griffiths

....By quite a distance

Its funny because this is near enough the team and system that finished so strongly in Strachans final year in charge but has actually improved and had an upgrade in certain areas. Tierney and Robertson are both outstanding full backs. McGinn, McTominay and Fraser have all come through since then and developed into top quality EPL players to replace Brown, Morrison and Snodgrass. Cooper and McKenna are as good a partnership as the Berra Mulgrew partnership and potentially a lot better than them especially McKenna. The wingers are good and if Griffiths can get back for March then we have a right strong team again

You’ve clearly learned nothing from the last 20 years of failure. Keep doing the same thing and expect different results 

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4 minutes ago, bazmidd said:

When everyone is fit this will be our best team and system.... 

                          Marshall

Tierney     Cooper   McKenna   Robertson

             McTominay  McGregor

 Forrest              McGinn            Fraser

                           Griffiths

....By quite a distance

Its funny because this is near enough the team and system that finished so strongly in Strachans final year in charge but has actually improved and had an upgrade in certain areas. Tierney and Robertson are both outstanding full backs. McGinn, McTominay and Fraser have all come through since then and developed into top quality EPL players to replace Brown, Morrison and Snodgrass. Cooper and McKenna are as good a partnership as the Berra Mulgrew partnership and potentially a lot better than them especially McKenna. The wingers are good and if Griffiths can get back for March then we have a right strong team again

That's my back four and as three of them aren't here it's a bit awkward so we play a back three keep two clean sheets against pretty poor opposition and Clarke think's he's cracked it.

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1 minute ago, Rscot said:

You’ve clearly learned nothing from the last 20 years of failure. Keep doing the same thing and expect different results 

It's the people that think calling up Naismith and starting him that have learned nothing.

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19 minutes ago, bazmidd said:

When everyone is fit this will be our best team and system.... 

                          Marshall

Tierney     Cooper   McKenna   Robertson

             McTominay  McGregor

 Forrest              McGinn            Fraser

                           Griffiths

....By quite a distance

Its funny because this is near enough the team and system that finished so strongly in Strachans final year in charge but has actually improved and had an upgrade in certain areas. Tierney and Robertson are both outstanding full backs. McGinn, McTominay and Fraser have all come through since then and developed into top quality EPL players to replace Brown, Morrison and Snodgrass. Cooper and McKenna are as good a partnership as the Berra Mulgrew partnership and potentially a lot better than them especially McKenna. The wingers are good and if Griffiths can get back for March then we have a right strong team again

I'm going to ignore the four at the back for a while. 

Why is everyone obsessed with 4-2-3-1? We don't have one anchorman , never mind two. Scott McTominay is not an anchorman, never has been, never will be. Just because he's playing there for his club means nothing. Pogba has been playing as an anchorman under OGS. Does anyone think Pogba's an anchorman.

People say that our strongest position is the middle of midfield. I agree. So why not play the central midfielders in midfield, as opposed to defensive shields for the defence.

Also, in that system we lose the ball so frequently that the wingers and second striker get pulled back, till we're practically playing with a 6 (back four and the anchormen)-3-1

If it's a four at the back then it should be 4-3-3 or even 4-4-2.

Edited by The_Dark_Knight

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4 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

It's the people that think calling up Naismith and starting him that have learned nothing.

So you agree that Clarke is clueless

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13 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

To be honest I'm not sure I even wan't to get decent results here as I have already marked Clarke down as a total idiot since he didn't start Mctominay against Cyprus.

I'm in total and complete agreement with you there.

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It is horses for courses for me in terms of system based on what we have available and our opponents. When we have our strongest players all available to us, we play better as a four at the back, allowing for more width further up the park. See Albania away last year and Israel at home as well as Cyprus at home for the positive contributions wide players have made.

 

However, in games against better opposition or where we lose the likes of Fraser, Tierney and Robertson, we should theoretically be more solid playing a 3/5 at the back. We struggled in Israel but I would argue with hindsight that this was down to lax tactical preparation by McLeish and having the wrong team out on the park (Kevin McDonald being the prime example).

 

As such, I'm abstaining from the poll, but with the proviso that I am happy to play either or both dependent on circumstances and availability.

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4 minutes ago, The_Dark_Knight said:

Agreed.

Naismith is a total backward step.

He isn't a backwards step, he is very much needed in the squad. The massive backwards step came when McLeish came in and ripped apart a team and system which was so blatantly on the right track. The experience in that squad should have been complimented by the new talented players in this squad not thrown in the bin. The massive shift in personnel and change in system from McLeish at the start of his reign is what caused a steady ship to rock and ultimately sink. Only now is Clarke picking up those pieces and unfortunately there is only a few guys such as Naismith left to help him out

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1 minute ago, bazmidd said:

He isn't a backwards step, he is very much needed in the squad. The massive backwards step came when McLeish came in and ripped apart a team and system which was so blatantly on the right track. The experience in that squad should have been complimented by the new talented players in this squad not thrown in the bin. The massive shift in personnel and change in system from McLeish at the start of his reign is what caused a steady ship to rock and ultimately sink. Only now is Clarke picking up those pieces and unfortunately there is only a few guys such as Naismith left to help him out

I was going to say that we should get the brush out and clear out the deadwood... But if we did that I'm not sure who we would be left with.

As for Naismith, with his charity work he's one of the good guys, so i dont have a bone to pick with him. When's the last time he played for Hearts? I honest haven't given him a second thought as far as Scotland goes. It's time we thought of Hornby or someone from the youth teams. 

We have to build for the future. A young kid playing these matches, and the playoff matches would be ideal.

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11 minutes ago, bazmidd said:

He isn't a backwards step, he is very much needed in the squad. The massive backwards step came when McLeish came in and ripped apart a team and system which was so blatantly on the right track. The experience in that squad should have been complimented by the new talented players in this squad not thrown in the bin. The massive shift in personnel and change in system from McLeish at the start of his reign is what caused a steady ship to rock and ultimately sink. Only now is Clarke picking up those pieces and unfortunately there is only a few guys such as Naismith left to help him out

Blatantly on the right track?

We’d consistently not qualified from easy groups. 

We are on an even worse track now though yes admittedly. 

And as for Clarke picking up the pieces!? Things are worse than ever, maybe the worst they’ve ever been. 

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1 minute ago, The_Dark_Knight said:

I was going to say that we should get the brush out and clear out the deadwood... But if we did that I'm not sure who we would be left with.

As for Naismith, with his charity work he's one of the good guys, so i dont have a bone to pick with him. When's the last time he played for Hearts? I honest haven't given him a second thought as far as Scotland goes. It's time we thought of Hornby or someone from the youth teams. 

We have to build for the future. A young kid playing these matches, and the playoff matches would be ideal.

Ideal for who? Hornby? How would it be ideal for Fraser Hornbys development to be thrust into the senior side as our number 9 after only a handful of senior appearances! How is that pressure at such a young age in let's face it such a toxic environment that the national team finds itself in at this moment and time ideal for Fraser Hornby. Right fine he's talented, bring him in to the squad, integrate him, but there has to be senior pros in there for him to learn from. Players like Steven Naismith have been there and done it, are top professionals, played for big clubs in the EPL. They have handled pressure. They are players the likes of Hornby can learn from, they are the players that can take the pressure away from the younger players which allows them the freedom to develop and freedom to play their own game. Our young players don't need thrust in there as some sort of great hope of the nation after only a few senior games. Getting rid of Strachan which led to in one way or another the loss of Brown, McArthur, McGregor, Morrison, Snodgrass, D. Fletcher, S. Fletcher has been a disaster for us. We needed someone to come in and keep that squad together whilst also integrating our younger players, McLeish failed at this spectacularly. Then was the exact time to integrate our younger players with guidance from those senior pros, now we would be doing nothing but throwing the lambs to the wolves

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Just now, bazmidd said:

Ideal for who? Hornby? How would it be ideal for Fraser Hornbys development to be thrust into the senior side as our number 9 after only a handful of senior appearances! How is that pressure at such a young age in let's face it such a toxic environment that the national team finds itself in at this moment and time ideal for Fraser Hornby. Right fine he's talented, bring him in to the squad, integrate him, but there has to be senior pros in there for him to learn from. Players like Steven Naismith have been there and done it, are top professionals, played for big clubs in the EPL. They have handled pressure. They are players the likes of Hornby can learn from, they are the players that can take the pressure away from the younger players which allows them the freedom to develop and freedom to play their own game. Our young players don't need thrust in there as some sort of great hope of the nation after only a few senior games. Getting rid of Strachan which led to in one way or another the loss of Brown, McArthur, McGregor, Morrison, Snodgrass, D. Fletcher, S. Fletcher has been a disaster for us. We needed someone to come in and keep that squad together whilst also integrating our younger players, McLeish failed at this spectacularly. Then was the exact time to integrate our younger players with guidance from those senior pros, now we would be doing nothing but throwing the lambs to the wolves

Players like Naismith's generation have had their chances. They've failed. So for the playoffs i'd promote the likes of Johnston, Hornby, Gilmour, Porteous, Campbell, maybe even one or two from the u19s.

If these players shrink at playing at such a stage then they shouldn't be footballers, don't use age as a barometer. Age is inconsequential.

If nothing else, the playoffs will show who has the mettle. If we get to final we'll play Norway. In my opinion, Norway will qualify for Euro 2020. So either way we'll lose.

I'd rather experiment, and lose, with kids than go with the players who have failed in the Euro qualification, and lose.

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7 minutes ago, ProudScot said:

Blatantly on the right track?

We’d consistently not qualified from easy groups. 

We are on an even worse track now though yes admittedly. 

And as for Clarke picking up the pieces!? Things are worse than ever, maybe the worst they’ve ever been. 

What exactly constituted an easy group? Since when was any group we have found ourselves in recently been easy when we are consistently 3rd or 4th seeds! How can that group possibly be easy to qualify from when you are seeded below two teams than you before a ball is kicked. Why do we still have the belief that we are somehow superior to certain other sides when we are not. Strachan beyond doubt had us playing well in his final year in charge, he found a system and we were close. Most of the teams we played, we ran them close, we gave them a right good game even though we were ranked below them. You can't deny that. He did ultimately fail, which is why, myself included, believed he should let someone else take the rains, but McLeish undeniably ripened the whole thing to shreds! We had just went a year unbeaten, we just missed out in a group against 3 good sides. We were looking at how we could make the small improvements to make the final step and McLeish came in and threw it all in the bin. No wonder players didn't want to play for him. Senior Pros who had just went a year unbeaten, gave everything in those games, came so close again just discarded and disrespected without thought. And then we ask this new group of players to come in, who have zero experience at international level and expect them to not only match what those senior pros did but better it all on their own. The mistake was made when we passed the baton on to the wrong man. 

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