We just do not have the players

[Bino's]

49 minutes ago, The_Dark_Knight said:

And to put into perspective, what some people just don't get. This is our first XI against San Marino:

Scotland 18/19

Jon McLaughlin: N/A (0)
Andrew Robertson: Liverpool: European Cup (1)
Stuard Findlay: N/A (0)
Michael Devlin: N/A (0)
Liam Palmer: N/A (0)
Callum McGregor: N/A (0)
Scott McTominay: Manchester United (0)
James Forrest: N/A (0)
Ryan Fraser: Bournemouth (0)
John McGinn: Aston Villa (0)
Lawrence Shankland: N/A (0)

Total Major Trophies: 1

This is why we don't qualify for tournaments. Very few of our players are winners.

And yes, the title of this thread is spot-on. We DON'T have the players.

How many major trophies does 35 year old Heart of Midlothian player Glenn Whelan, guaranteed pick in Republic of Ireland midfield, have

[The_Dark_Knight]

7 minutes ago, Bino's said:

How many major trophies does 35 year old Heart of Midlothian player Glenn Whelan, guaranteed pick in Republic of Ireland midfield, have

Fine. We have one major domestic trophy, Ireland have none. It's hardly a massive difference.

Another variable: Have you seen their defence? Only Andy Robertson would get into their defence: Robertson, Egan, Duffy, Coleman.

[Guest ElChris04]

My personal opinion is, Major Club Trophy records of players is only worth considering when your national team is actually capable of Challenging for say a World Cup / Euros.then it’s notable if a team wins a major international trophy.
 

But we can’t even qualify. You don’t need to have a squad of World class players or players winning hunners of Major trophy’s at club level to qualify for a euros.

you need decent hard working players who’ll play for the country and a manger who can make the best of what he’s got. We have some really good players and the best left back in the world in Robertson.
 

Ireland, NI, Wales, Iceland are the prime example of it. qualifying for the euros and Iceland most recently the World Cup with a  very below average team. But they work and click due to having some decent players and most of all passion and a manger who sets the team up to the best of what he’s got. We need to adapt to that. We’re never going to win any major tournament or come close to it, but as long as we can qualify like Ireland, NI, Iceland and wales do who are small teams with poorer quality players then it’s what we are very much capable of doing. 
 

why we are failing is due to players not caring enough like the players who play for the NT’s I mentioned, poor set ups with us not getting the best out the current group,  or the fact we all feel there’s some sort of curse on us to inevitably fail. 
 

it’s time we wake up and adapt before it’s too late and we plunge further into international football’s black hole .
 

And it’s time the players start showing they care and give absolutely everything for the country, and finally for Clarke to adapt his tactics rather than this hoof the ball shite. Then we will get somewhere. 

[The_Dark_Knight]

1 hour ago, ElChris04 said:

My personal opinion is, Major Club Trophy records of players is only worth considering when your national team is actually capable of Challenging for say a World Cup / Euros.then it’s notable if a team wins a major international trophy.
 

But we can’t even qualify. You don’t need to have a squad of World class players or players winning hunners of Major trophy’s at club level to qualify for a euros.

you need decent hard working players who’ll play for the country and a manger who can make the best of what he’s got. We have some really good players and the best left back in the world in Robertson.
 

Ireland, NI, Wales, Iceland are the prime example of it. qualifying for the euros and Iceland most recently the World Cup with a  very below average team. But they work and click due to having some decent players and most of all passion and a manger who sets the team up to the best of what he’s got. We need to adapt to that. We’re never going to win any major tournament or come close to it, but as long as we can qualify like Ireland, NI, Iceland and wales do who are small teams with poorer quality players then it’s what we are very much capable of doing. 
 

why we are failing is due to players not caring enough like the players who play for the NT’s I mentioned, poor set ups with us not getting the best out the current group,  or the fact we all feel there’s some sort of curse on us to inevitably fail. 
 

it’s time we wake up and adapt before it’s too late and we plunge further into international football’s black hole .
 

And it’s time the players start showing they care and give absolutely everything for the country, and finally for Clarke to adapt his tactics rather than this hoof the ball shite. Then we will get somewhere. 

The thing about both Irelands is that they have pretty good defenders. From Duffy, Evans, Coleman, Doherty, Egan, etc. So that gives them a good source of a foundation. Us? The only solution that I can think of is playing with a back five! 

We've always been at a stage where we absolutely need winners to even qualify. Look at our France 98 squad. Those players won a haul of 8 domestic trophies for their clubs. That team looked Brazil in the eye and went blow-for-blow with them.

The players we have now take a lead against a decent Russian team and fall like a bunch of broccoli. They go to Kazakhstan and get absolutely thrashed, it was 3 going on 7.

This generation of players, like the umpteen generations that came before it, just haven't got the character or the talent to qualify for a major tournament.

People are talking about the playoffs. Yeah, well, whilst they're talking about the playoffs, I'm thinking of the World Cup qualifiers. If anyone thinks we have a good in hell in the playoffs, well, there's a padded cell waiting on them.

The current players are a result of bad coaching from a very early age. It's not their fault they aren't good enough, it's the system that's to blame. 

The good news is that the u17s and u19s look talented. I don't rate many players in the u21s, though. Once the u17s and u19 break into the full team then we'll get a grasp of how bad this, and the previous generations, really were.

[The_Dark_Knight]

29 minutes ago, The_Dark_Knight said:

People are talking about the playoffs. Yeah, well, whilst they're talking about the playoffs, I'm thinking of the World Cup qualifiers. If anyone thinks we have a chance in hell in the playoffs, well, there's a padded cell waiting on them.

*Edit.

Bloody phone.

[Bonny79]

5 hours ago, The_Dark_Knight said:

*Edit.

Bloody phone.

Why can't we win a play off? 

It won't be against a top seed

[AndyDD]

14 hours ago, The_Dark_Knight said:

You asked for references.

My exact words were "An International team is usually judged by how many domestic medals the players win" - Looking back at the most recent international tournament (FIFA 2018 World Cup), that's exactly how it transpired. Of the remaining four teams at the end of the World Cup, the international team that had the most accumulative domestic medals won the tournament. The team who won the fewest domestic trophies finished fourth and last of the remaining four teams. 

That is how things shook out, but that is not how the teams were judged. They played the games, regardless of this fact, because 'how many domestic medals the players win' is categorically, factually NOT the way an international team is usually judged. Otherwise there wouldn't have been a baw kicked. 

Your assertion was wrong. 

Obviously there is a correlation between domestic trophy numbers and international success; it denotes having top class players at the most successful clubs. But you didn't say 'the best international teams are usually packed with players who have won major trophies and leagues at club level. You said the number of club medals won is the bar by which international teams are usually judged. That's just not the case. At all. They are usually judged by what they do in international tournaments. 

(For what it's worth I think you are being very, very generous to count Club world cup as a major trophy  ) 

 

[RightPeg]

2 hours ago, Bonny79 said:

Why can't we win a play off? 

It won't be against a top seed

Because we can barely beat anybody regardless of seeding. 

[AndyDD]

1 hour ago, AndyDD said:

My exact words were "An International team is usually judged by how many domestic medals the players win" - Looking back at the most recent international tournament (FIFA 2018 World Cup), that's exactly how it transpired. Of the remaining four teams at the end of the World Cup, the international team that had the most accumulative domestic medals won the tournament. The team who won the fewest domestic trophies finished fourth and last of the remaining four teams. 

 

TDK;

That is how things shook out, but that is not how the teams were judged. They played the games, regardless of this fact, because 'how many domestic medals the players win' is categorically, factually NOT the way an international team is usually judged. Otherwise there wouldn't have been a baw kicked. 

Your assertion was wrong. 

Obviously there is a correlation between domestic trophy numbers and international success; it denotes having top class players at the most successful clubs. But you didn't say 'the best international teams are usually packed with players who have won major trophies and leagues at club level. You said the number of club medals won is the bar by which international teams are usually judged. That's just not the case. At all. They are usually judged by what they do in international tournaments. 

(For what it's worth I think you are being very, very generous to count Club world cup as a major trophy  ) 

[Squirrelhumper]

16 hours ago, The_Dark_Knight said:

 

 

This is why we don't qualify for tournaments. Very few of our players are winners.

 

We've players who've won a treble treble but you don't count that in your daft argument.

 

[Bonny79]

2 hours ago, RightPeg said:

Because we can barely beat anybody regardless of seeding. 

Now we have a good manager though. 

[0Neils40yarder]

2 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said:

We've players who've won a treble treble but you don't count that in your daft argument.

 

Winning a treble treble in our pish poor, lop-sided league means the square root of fuck all, in fitba terms really 

Edited November 5, 2019 by 0Neils40yarder

[Bonny79]

People condemning the team already. 

 

We have about half a year till the play offs and the draw is not yet made.  

 

Calm the fk down and think that we only have to be good for a few games next march and we cud do this thing.   (some of those home games) 

[Squirrelhumper]

2 minutes ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

Winning a treble treble means the square root of fuck all, in fitba terms really 

I wish Scotland could win 3 games on the bounce, never mind all 3 trophies, 3 years on the spin.

No matter how allegedly weak the league is, there's a reason why it's never been done before and it's cos its pretty hard!

Arguably the best we've been in recent years was when we had 5 Celtic players in the team as mainstays as they were used to winning every single week.

[The_Dark_Knight]

4 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said:

We've players who've won a treble treble but you don't count that in your daft argument.

 

I said "major trophies"

The SPL trophy is as minor as you can get.

[The_Dark_Knight]

4 hours ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

Winning a treble treble in our pish poor, lop-sided league means the square root of fuck all, in fitba terms really 

100% correct.

[0Neils40yarder]

3 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said:

I wish Scotland could win 3 games on the bounce, never mind all 3 trophies, 3 years on the spin.

No matter how allegedly weak the league is, there's a reason why it's never been done before and it's cos its pretty hard!

Arguably the best we've been in recent years was when we had 5 Celtic players in the team as mainstays as they were used to winning every single week.

I'd put money on you leading Celtic to a treble most seasons

[Toepoke]

While I don't think a team's amount of "winners" can be applied that scientifically, there's no doubt it's a reasonable guage of the strength of a side. Eg. I just had a look at the XI that beat Spain in 1984, more than half the team were multiple European trophy winners. 

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Toepoke

[The_Dark_Knight]

9 hours ago, AndyDD said:

TDK;

That is how things shook out, but that is not how the teams were judged. They played the games, regardless of this fact, because 'how many domestic medals the players win' is categorically, factually NOT the way an international team is usually judged. Otherwise there wouldn't have been a baw kicked. 

Your assertion was wrong. 

Obviously there is a correlation between domestic trophy numbers and international success; it denotes having top class players at the most successful clubs. But you didn't say 'the best international teams are usually packed with players who have won major trophies and leagues at club level. You said the number of club medals won is the bar by which international teams are usually judged. That's just not the case. At all. They are usually judged by what they do in international tournaments. 

(For what it's worth I think you are being very, very generous to count Club world cup as a major trophy  ) 

How was I wrong if I just proved that teams with the most domestic trophies we're the most successful at the 2018 World Cup?

I think it was a pretty obvious assertion that international teams with the biggest haul of domestic honours are usually the most successful ones. There are teams who over-achieve (England), but for the most case, the class of an international team is based on individual, and collective, domestic success.

Then came out the bizarre statements about hairstyles and AI and Donald Trump. It's difficult trying to have a sensible discourse with two guys who are acting like naughty little boys.

Anyway.

At France 98 we had a squad that won eight major trophies in that calendar year. The current squad has won one. 

And people still think this team is underachieving.

[Bonny79]

There is Also time to get Paul Dickov in as coach. 

[AndyDD]

13 hours ago, The_Dark_Knight said:

How was I wrong if I just proved that teams with the most domestic trophies we're the most successful at the 2018 World Cup?

I think it was a pretty obvious assertion that international teams with the biggest haul of domestic honours are usually the most successful ones. There are teams who over-achieve (England), but for the most case, the class of an international team is based on individual, and collective, domestic success.

Then came out the bizarre statements about hairstyles and AI and Donald Trump. It's difficult trying to have a sensible discourse with two guys who are acting like naughty little boys.

Anyway.

At France 98 we had a squad that won eight major trophies in that calendar year. The current squad has won one. 

And people still think this team is underachieving.

You were wrong because your claim was that the number of domestic medals won is how International teams are usually judged. 

That's not the case. They are judged by international tournament showings and results. 

Of course there is a correlation. Obviously there is. But I have never ever heard anyone use that as the marker by which an international team is measured until you did it. It certainly tells a story and points to the relative strength, or lack thereof, of our current crop, very few of whom are playing for top sides or ever have played for top sides. 

But yes, you were wrong, that is NOT how international teams are usually judged. They are usually judged by their international showing. How many major trophy winners did France have in 2002? Out in the first round. Don't be silly. We both know that it's a very good indicator but not the way teams are judged in the international realm. 

Otherwise why bother playing the matches? Tally -up the medals and give everyone the summer off.

Yeah, I never made any comments about hairstyles or Trump, so those are irrelevant. 

I think if the team finishes less than third in this group it will be underachieving. If it finishes third then it will have met expectations. Anything better than that would definitely have been an example of significant over-achieving. 

I'd expect us to get through round 1 of the playoffs. Round 2? Hm. Not so sure. 

 

 

[The_Dark_Knight]

6 hours ago, AndyDD said:

You were wrong because your claim was that the number of domestic medals won is how International teams are usually judged.

So, essentially, I said that the success of an international team is usually gauged by the amount of domestic trophies that they win in a calendar year:

2018 FIFA World Cup:

1st: France - 14 domestic trophies

2nd: Croatia - 9 domestic trophies

3rd Belgium - 8 domestic trophies

4th: England - 4 domestic trophies

That's your evidence. At this point you aren't arguing with me, you're arguing with historical fact.

 

[AndyDD]

17 hours ago, The_Dark_Knight said:

So, essentially, I said that the success of an international team is usually gauged by the amount of domestic trophies that they win in a calendar year:

2018 FIFA World Cup:

1st: France - 14 domestic trophies

2nd: Croatia - 9 domestic trophies

3rd Belgium - 8 domestic trophies

4th: England - 4 domestic trophies

That's your evidence. At this point you aren't arguing with me, you're arguing with historical fact.

 

Ach, this is getting ridiculous. 

The success of an international team is usually gauged by their results in international football. Some examples that contradict your theory; France in 2002. Germany going out early last year, presumably with a lot more domestic medals in their party than a lot of teams that went further. Spain going out earlyish in the same competition. 

There's a lot of overlap and one tends to find that you' see a lot of sync up between the two, but international results are used to judge international teams, in my experience. 

Clearly we are both dug in and won't agree with each other on this one. 

[Tartan blood]

Last night's results in Europe prove further that we do indeed have the players, and the mentality to perform in major competitions. 

4 eligible Scots starting over the 2 games. Which, I admit, could be better. But I would only expect 3 or 4 players from the old firm to be in the starting 11 anyway. 

(I do wonder if Scott Brown and Allan McGregor would consider coming out of retirement if we do qualify)

 

Edited November 8, 2019 by Tartan blood

[vanderark14]

24 minutes ago, Tartan blood said:

Last night's results in Europe prove further that we do indeed have the players, and the mentality to perform in major competitions. 

4 eligible Scots starting over the 2 games. Which, I admit, could be better. But I would only expect 3 or 4 players from the old firm to be in the starting 11 anyway. 

(I do wonder if Scott Brown and Allan McGregor would consider coming out of retirement if we do qualify)

 

If that happened they should be told No Thanks