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General Election 2019


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2 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Was it a strange obsession when he spoke about independence every day for years?

No because that was a major issue that average voter was and still is concerned about.

His extreme obsession with gender issues isn't something most people care about.

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Just now, ErsatzThistle said:

No because that was a major issue that average voter was and still is concerned about.

His extreme obsession with gender issues isn't something most people care about.

True, but if it’s something he believes strongly in then i suppose it’s up to him to pursue, but it’s probably cost him traffic. 
 

Could be a major issue in the future

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On another front, saw that Andrew Neil interview with Swinson. I thought she probably exceeded (low) expectation, seemed less got at than Sturgeon or Corbyn, but only because she more or less caved in, drew in party ambition, rowed back on revoke, and apologised for her role on coalition.

Made for an easier ride for her on the day, but may make selling Lib Dems harder on the doorstep. 

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2 minutes ago, exile said:

On another front, saw that Andrew Neil interview with Swinson. I thought she probably exceeded (low) expectation, seemed less got at than Sturgeon or Corbyn, but only because she more or less caved in, drew in party ambition, rowed back on revoke, and apologised for her role on coalition.

Made for an easier ride for her on the day, but may make selling Lib Dems harder on the doorstep. 

If they don't get twenty + seats in this election and then underwhelm in next year's English local elections, I'm pretty sure she'll be facing a leadership challenge.

Edited by ErsatzThistle
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"So we’ll say what we’ve felt for quite a while now but bitten our tongue on in the name of the movement: regardless of the outcome of next week’s election, Nicola Sturgeon needs to stand down, and the sooner the better. In this site’s view, there is no chance whatsoever of independence being achieved under her leadership, and to be honest it’s been some time since we’ve believed she was even trying.

The woke-infested SNP is a trainwreck. It’s time to get it back on the track."

Could not agree more with Wings. My only doubt is that it is now maybe too late.

 

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1 hour ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Which begs the question, why are the SNP pursing this line of policy? 

Every party committed to review/reform of the GRA in their 2016 Holyrood manifestos.  

That's not to say that reform is right or wrong but it's not a policy which the SNP are ploughing a lone furrow on.

Usualy parties get criticised for not doing what they said they'd do in their manifestos. 

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8 minutes ago, aaid said:

Every party committed to review/reform of the GRA in their 2016 Holyrood manifestos.  

That's not to say that reform is right or wrong but it's not a policy which the SNP are ploughing a lone furrow on.

Usualy parties get criticised for not doing what they said they'd do in their manifestos. 

I realise they aren’t the only party going with this but I don’t understand why it’s in their manifesto in the first place when it’s been driven by a very small minority of activists and is a highly divisive subject. 
 

Well I have an idea why it’s in their manifesto but that’s for another thread. 

 

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The comments to the Wings article are worth a read. Considering the timing I was expecting a lot of flak but surprisingly a lot of people feel exactly the same way.

Lot of people speculating that the SNP have been infiltrated... 

Regarding the GRA some of the comments by women are very interesting.

Quote

 

Maren says:

5 December, 2019 at 2:36 am

And to those castigating Stu for breaking this story now – we are meant to ignore this purging of supporters of women’s rights. That’s why it is being done now. So that we will silence our dissent lest we damage SNP chances at the election.

Those engaged in the purge however have no such qualms about damaging the SNP and the independence movement. They have but one goal and that is enforcing compliance with their ideology and enshrining it in Scottish law.

And I am sick and tired of men telling me that independence must come first. No. An attack as the one currently underway on the rights of over half the population of this country is not some fringe issue. It is not trivial, unimportant or subordinate to independence. This is not about some poor suffering souls just wanting to pee in peace.

And no, there will not need to be compromise. Not for manly men who merely claim a female soul, not for feminine men with fake boobs and a wig who have their penis inverted or chopped off. Why don’t you compromise so these men feel safe with all the other men? Why don’t you accommodate them?

A man without a penis is not a woman. Woman is not a feeling in a man’s head. We are actual, real human beings distinct and separate from men. We are a whole sex class, a whole political category to ourselves. With our own needs and our own rights.

Women as females currently have the right – in language and in law – to define ourselves in a category of our own, separately from males (however they identify). With our own sovereign spaces, services and sports and our own language to name our bodies and our lives and with other legal set asides necessary for our safety, dignity and privacy and to overcome the disadvantages we suffer for being born female in a male-dominated world.

I will not give up this right and all that follows on from it. Neither will any of my fellow campaigners. It took your foremothers hundreds of years to gain these protections, we’ve had most of them for less than 50 years and we won’t yield, we can’t yield and look our daughters and granddaughters in the eye with a clear conscience.

You underestimate the anger of women about this issue at your peril. Without women there will be no independence campaign. Not that Women for Independence are making any public statements about this as an organisation but I have lost count of how many members have told me that this is the first time they have encountered a political issue more important to them than independence and if they had to make a decision between independence and defending our rights, they will choose the latter. It is existential for us. Not fearmongering, not propagandising, not bigoted, not right-wing.

Just women who know why we need these rights. Many who fought for them 30, 40 years ago. And I am happy to meet anyone to explain this in painstaking, minute detail with the evidence showing what we are talking about and why. I haven’t dedicated the last two years of my life to this fight for no reason.

We are as a class of course well used to being told to fight for other aims first, that there’s always time to fight for women’s rights later. Labour’s been doing this to us for over a hundred years. Hardly surprising that independence supporters are doing the same now.

Enough. I don’t want an independent Scotland where my rights have been eroded. Neither do thousands of women in Scotland now meeting and organising to stand up for our rights. We might have to do so in private for fear of losing our jobs, reputations or our safety. But more and more of us don’t give a fuck anymore and stand up in public, too.

Purging Findlay and Hanvey is meant to scare politicians off in a desperate, revealing move, because more and more politicians and people are waking up to the danger. But this will merely shed sunlight on the totalitarian nature of those advocating for transgender ideology and legislation.

 

 

Quote

 

Scozzie says:
5 December, 2019 at 2:41 am

Nah – I’ll not wait until after independence before challenging this regressive self ID policy.

To those SNP members / voters who are critical of self ID:
Mhairi Hunter calls you ‘trash’
Mhairi Black / Rhiannon Spears calls you ‘Jeremy Hunts’
Alyn Smith’s hangers-on call you ‘TERFs’
A whole bunch of SNPers will not sign the Women’s pledge. And neither Nicola Sturgeon or Fiona Robertson will engage with grassroots women’s groups on this issue. Not to mention the woke SNP contingent who actively try to get gender critical SNP figures deselected and now this anti-semitic ruse coming from their own ranks! Frankly, the SNP are fucking up independence all by themselves!

Those who say Stu is side-tracked with the GRA debate completely misunderstand how legislative changes to the GRA that will enable self-ID will impact on society:
– It means women as a defined sex category (including our protective sex-based rights) will be completely erased. Biological men will have access to women’s prisons, refuges, sport, changing areas, toilets and more.

– Gender critical people including academics, scientists and ordinary people will be silenced from debating and discussing this issue.

– The biological sciences will be trumped by gender theory.

– We will go down the track of Canada’s C-16 Bill and have enforced compelled speech regarding people’s preferred pronouns.

– We will adopt a ‘gender affirming’ policy to enable adolescents to transition putting them on a path of puberty blockers, hormones and surgery; with no accompanying psychological / psychiatric support to attempt to treat the dysphoria.

– We will enable trans activists to threaten women with violence verbally and physically, in person and online.

– Saying ‘trans women are men’ or ‘woman: adult human female’ will be classed as hate speech and you may get a visit from the police.

Does this all seem a bit far fetched? Well this is already happening by stealth and the legislation has not even been passed yet. Organisations are falling over themselves to change their policies to enable self-ID including: police, prisons, NHS, schools, women’s services and more.

Independence is the main goal for the YES movement, but based on these last few years, I just don’t see it as the main goal for the SNP. If this policy capture by the wokerati continues, then we definitely need a new independence political party and soon.

 

This is about a lot more than the GRA.

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1 minute ago, aaid said:

It's just another throwaway remark that he can't back up when asked to.  Pretty much standard behaviour for him. 

 

1 minute ago, aaid said:

You won't 

Bit harsh. 
 

I’ve discussed it elsewhere on here before. Most recently the get it off your chest thread.
 

If you’re keen to discuss it more sooner, start your own thread and I’m sure I’ll join in. 

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8 minutes ago, thplinth said:

The comments to the Wings article are worth a read. Considering the timing I was expecting a lot of flak but surprisingly a lot of people feel exactly the same way.

Lot of people speculating that the SNP have been infiltrated... 

Regarding the GRA some of the comments by women are very interesting.

 

This is about a lot more than the GRA.

Not listening to voters.

Just like the other parties. 

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It is a bit more than that IMHO.

Seems like there is a faction in the SNP ( I'll use the 'wokerati' from Scozzie's comment above for want of a better name) who have been dangerously empowered by NS (who alas buys into all this toxic shite hook line and sinker) and who have now started purging the SNP of people who object to their views. It seems like there is battle going on for the heart and soul of the SNP post 2014. I am sorry to say but IMHO this is all down to NS. She is the one energizing this faction. The GRA stuff is just the tip of the spear. If they prevail with it the SNP will be fucked (and probably already is).

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3 minutes ago, thplinth said:

It is a bit more than that IMHO.

Seems like there is a faction in the SNP ( I'll use the 'wokerati' from Scozzie's comment above for want of a better name) who have been dangerously empowered by NS (who alas buys into all this toxic shite hook line and sinker) and who have now started purging the SNP of people who object to their views. It seems like there is battle going on for the heart and soul of the SNP post 2014. I am sorry to say but IMHO this is all down to NS. She is the one energizing this faction. The GRA stuff is just the tip of the spear. If they prevail with it the SNP will be fucked (and probably already is).

I don’t disagree but I don’t think the SNP are fucked, electorally they will do “well” at the election because of independence and they might even get YES over the line. But any hope I had of Scotland being better off through independence has all but evaporated. 

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1979:

The SNP is divided by a group of young upstarts including Alex Salmond, Jim Sillars, and Margo McDonald. The division threatens to alienate large swathes of the electorate. They want to move SNP economic policy onto left-wing ground, and into supporting a Scottish republic.

 

2019:

The SNP is divided by a group of young upstarts, which threatens to alienate large swathes of the electorate. They want a minority group representing 0.6% of the population to have the right to piss in whatever bathroom they choose.

 

FFS :lol: :huh:

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57 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

 

Bit harsh. 
 

I’ve discussed it elsewhere on here before. Most recently the get it off your chest thread.
 

If you’re keen to discuss it more sooner, start your own thread and I’m sure I’ll join in. 

This comment from a year ago? Hardly counts as a discussion or an explanation.

 

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25 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

I don’t disagree but I don’t think the SNP are fucked, electorally they will do “well” at the election because of independence and they might even get YES over the line. But any hope I had of Scotland being better off through independence has all but evaporated. 

I personally think that is an illusion (as do you judging by the scare quotes). 

Given the performance of the Tories since 2014 a few seats gained back from 2017 is a very poor return. 

Support for YES has flat-lined and the SNP have seemingly failed to capitalize on the huge second chance indyref opportunity that is BREXIT.

Read the comments to the Wings article - the folk who criticize him are saying the same thing over and over - the phrase they are using is 'I will be holding my nose and voting SNP on the 12th'.

Now ask yourself how that is possible given the mess the Tories have created since 2014. How is it possible to have inherited the enormous positivity and palpable sense that something fresh and new was happening (even despite the NO) and then in a few short years the party is on the verge of a split and people are having to hold their noses to vote SNP.

I would argue a plank of wood could have led the SNP post 2014 and we'd be in better shape than we are now. NS has the best luck of any politician I can think of as leader. Put in that context I think the SNP have hugely under performed during her reign.

The only thing holding it together at this point is the lure of getting independence. Once people lose hope that is going to happen anytime soon there is going to be a bloodbath in the SNP.

Edited by thplinth
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