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No apologies for turning to them again but they've gone and done it again, beating Czech with household names like McNair and Dallas. And they experimented with three at the back (note, Dark Knight). Lesson for us? Stick to the same group of players and mould them into a team; no dropping somebody if they have an indifferent game or get left out by their club - example  being Stuart Armstrong who is not  being picked by Southampton right now.

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Just got off flight to Edinburgh and about a dozen of their team were on it. Had a quick chat with Jimmy Nic and he was upbeat about how well they’ve done but felt Dutch result was a missed opportunity. When I said if Scotland had played those 2 sides over the weekend the aggregate score would have been about 6-0 he laughed and said without a doubt.

Edited by macy37
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O'Neil has done remarkably well at Northern Ireland and has a group of committed professionals who happen to be well suited to defensive set-ups. 

Look at our the centre halves they have been able to call upon over the last 5 years and compare them to ours; that helps. 

The draw they got for the euros qualification group was incredibly fortunate, as well; Greece, Romania, Hungary, Faroes, Finland. Greece, the top seeds, lost to the Faroes... home and away. 

But, hey, they got that draw and made the most of it. 

That being said, they work in a very particular way and, should they not be able to replace their centre halves as they age out (spoiler alert; they almost certainly won't) they will start to struggle badly. There is already some evidence of this and unless they can switch it up and change their style, they will find themselves in the not too distant future incapable of being as effective as they are at the moment. They remind me of the Smith/Mcleish Scotland in many ways, when we were so hard to beat and must have been horrendous to play against. We were certainly horrific to watch and got the same criticism from opposition managers and players as Koeman just gave NI. 

Well, look what happened. We lost the players who could play that way to age and are no longer blessed with defensive strength. We have struggled to find an identity since. 

This is the main reason I didn't want O'neil to get the Scotland job; we don't have the players to play the way NI do and I have no evidence that he has ever coached a team in a different manner. He'd have likely done a better job than even Smith/Mcleish did with that same squad, but that's not the way the mop flopped. 

It will be interesting to see how they get on in the playoffs. 

And as has been pointed out, the Czech's had an almost entirely different starting 11 than the one which beat england. Both teams were experimenting and trying things out in a no-risk friendly context. 

It is, essentially, meaningless. 

They didn't win any away friendlies when they were going well and qualifying for the euros, for example. They hadn't won an away friendly in 13 years. This demonstrates the irrelevance quite clearly. 

 

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5 hours ago, Third Lanark said:

And they experimented with three at the back (note, Dark Knight). Lesson for us?

100% yes!

I watched the match. Yes, the Czechs changed their team, but by current market value they were £14m more valuable than NI.

The first half it could've and should've been 6 or 7 nothing. They were being blitzed. The Sky commentator even said "The Czechs have simply no idea how to cope with this rampant Northern Ireland team and their 3-5-2"

The second half was more even and the Czechs got two back, both were avoidable, though.

All in all, it was very impressive the way that NI played. Open, expansive and sturdy at the back and organised.

And I noted that paddy McNair plays in midfield for his country (defender). Funny, when I suggested that Robertson play in midfield was roundly ridiculed for it... Mmm...

Edited by The_Dark_Knight
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8 hours ago, Third Lanark said:

No apologies for turning to them again but they've gone and done it again, beating Czech with household names like McNair and Dallas. And they experimented with three at the back (note, Dark Knight). Lesson for us? Stick to the same group of players and mould them into a team; no dropping somebody if they have an indifferent game or get left out by their club - example  being Stuart Armstrong who is not  being picked by Southampton right now.

NI will finish third in their group and so (hopefully) will we. They are punching above their weight at the moment but they will soon fade back into the obscurity they languished in for years. 

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2 hours ago, Texas Pete said:

NI will finish third in their group and so (hopefully) will we. They are punching above their weight at the moment but they will soon fade back into the obscurity they languished in for years. 

Michael O'Neill has done an amazing job really. They've always had a solid core of defenders to pick from but really their forward options are much worse than a decade ago when Healy was in his pomp.

To qualify for one tournament and get play offs in the other two campaigns is amazing consistancy.

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16 hours ago, The_Dark_Knight said:

 

And I noted that paddy McNair plays in midfield for his country (defender). Funny, when I suggested that Robertson play in midfield was roundly ridiculed for it... Mmm...

You were ridiculed for that and i think we (collectively) were wrong to.

The past few games have shown up how weak defensively Robertson is. His instinct is to get forward and cross, but he can't do that for Scotland as we're always under pressure against the better sides, plus we don't have the world's best defender to clean up any mess he leaves by over-committing. Better to use his superhuman energy to sit in front of the defence, break up attacks, and use his excellent passing.

You made all these points above months ago.

So aye, sign me up to the 'Robbo-at-CDM' hype train.

 

(P.S.  You've a long way to go on convincing me about 352 though! :lol:)

 

 

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3 hours ago, Dave78 said:

You were ridiculed for that and i think we (collectively) were wrong to.

The past few games have shown up how weak defensively Robertson is. His instinct is to get forward and cross, but he can't do that for Scotland as we're always under pressure against the better sides, plus we don't have the world's best defender to clean up any mess he leaves by over-committing. Better to use his superhuman energy to sit in front of the defence, break up attacks, and use his excellent passing.

You made all these points above months ago.

So aye, sign me up to the 'Robbo-at-CDM' hype train.

 

(P.S.  You've a long way to go on convincing me about 352 though! :lol:)

 

 

This is the issue for me with trying him in defensive mid. 

He cannae really tackle and his strength is attacking, not defending. He has a good delivery, too (most of the time). 

So sitting him at defensive mid removes his ability to get up the side of the park using his pace, removes his ability to hit a cross unless set plays and  it asks him predominantly to defend, which we are here saying is the weaker part of the game. 

Doesn't seem particularly wise to me. 

Put him and Tierney on the same side and have them job share the left back/left wing position. Let them cover each other. 

 

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5 hours ago, Dave78 said:

You were ridiculed for that and i think we (collectively) were wrong to.

The past few games have shown up how weak defensively Robertson is. His instinct is to get forward and cross, but he can't do that for Scotland as we're always under pressure against the better sides, plus we don't have the world's best defender to clean up any mess he leaves by over-committing. Better to use his superhuman energy to sit in front of the defence, break up attacks, and use his excellent passing.

You made all these points above months ago.

So aye, sign me up to the 'Robbo-at-CDM' hype train.

 

(P.S.  You've a long way to go on convincing me about 352 though! :lol:)

 

 

Nice. Thanks for that. :cheers3:

Exactly! 

Sometimes people over-simplify football, like back in the day and I was starting my 3 at the back riff, people were saying that "it would negate Robertson's attacking forays". The problem is, we don't have the players in the middle to allow Robertson to attack. Having the Energy of Robertson shielding the back three would be immeasurable, he's get the ball more often and he'd be able to influence matches more.

People are giving Robertson pelters for failing to influence matches, but I've never once heard of a fullback taking the game by the scruff of it's neck. I remember Ireland's qualification campaign for the 2002 World Cup. Not saying that Roy Keane qualified Ireland single-handed (Robbie Keane was also there), but I'm not not saying that. People say that our best midfielder is McGregor. Yeah, well, do you know how much abuse Jesse Lingard gets from Man United fans? McGregor reminds me of Lingard. He's wiry and light and looks like he does a lot, but he doesn't actually do anything.

Cool. And yes I did. Sometimes it takes people a while to catch up with me. ;)

(lol. There's still time. :P)

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On 10/15/2019 at 6:37 AM, macy37 said:

Just got off flight to Edinburgh and about a dozen of their team were on it. Had a quick chat with Jimmy Nic and he was upbeat about how well they’ve done but felt Dutch result was a missed opportunity. When I said if Scotland had played those 2 sides over the weekend the aggregate score would have been about 6-0 he laughed and said without a doubt.

Naw ye didnae. 

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On 10/15/2019 at 11:05 PM, Tartan Chris said:

Michael O'Neill has done an amazing job really. They've always had a solid core of defenders to pick from but really their forward options are much worse than a decade ago when Healy was in his pomp.

To qualify for one tournament and get play offs in the other two campaigns is amazing consistancy.

Indeed. They are punching above their weight at the moment much as we did for years. Won’t last forever though but good luck to them. 

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